Test Results for the Following:
Ammonia Level?
Between 0.5 and 1 (will be 0 very soon as when I have posted this I will be changing the water)

Nitrite Level?
0

Nitrate level?
Between 10 and 20

Ph Level ?
Will test this and post

Ph Level out of the Tap?
Will also test this

Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running?
It is a hospital tank and is 21 litres (UK) and has been running only for a week

What is the name and size of the filter/s?
It is an Elite Stingray 120LPH

How often do you change the water and how much?
I have been changing 50% of the water in the hospital tank every other day

How many fish in the tank and their size?
There is just one fish in the hospital tank and he is a small fancy

What kind of water additives or conditioners?
I use King British Safe Guard whenever I change the water in the tanks

Any medications added to the tank?
I have been using Sera Baktopur for a week

Add any new fish to the tank?
No

What do you feed your fish?
I feed a mix of soaked flakes, soaked pellets and peas

Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt", bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
Lumps on his body which get larger and then pop, releasing a white coloured stringy substance. Also noticed today that he had a bloody streak in his fin.

Any unusual behavior like stayingat the bottom, not eating, ect..?
No, he is eating as usual and not sitting on the bottom.


One of my fish began to get these lumps on his body just one at a time and they would grow and grow and then pop releasing the white stringy substance and then heal up. Just as one would heal another would appear. So I searched on here and decided to buy the sear baktopur and move him out of the main tank. When i recieved the medication I used it right away and while it seems to have an effect in healing the wounds it is not healping in stoping the lumps appear. He now seems to have many lumps on his body and they are taking longer to go away and also seem to be pushing up from deeper inside of him.
He is still eating fine and swimming about as normal I am just worried that the lumps are getting worse and worse.

In my main tank I have another 2 fancys and they have not got any lumps on them at all which is why i moved the ill fish as i didnt want to medicate them if they were not ill and also didnt want to harm the good bacteria in the main tank. I will test the main tanks water for you also and list the information about the filtration too if would like?

I am hoping to buy some salt so that I can salt the hospital tank if you think that might help? I also realise that the hospital tank is small but its the only thing I have and I am performing water cahnges every other day and even more if it needs it.

Thank you for reading all this and if there is anything else that you need to know the just ask, I hope that someone whill be able to help me save my fishy.

Hi Lavinia - I've just checked your profile and see that your are in the UK, like me, and you also have the same tank, too!
Have you managed to get the bigger pump yet? I found that adding a fluval to the other end, made circulation and filtration better than using just the 1500 pump - the tank is quite wide and deep and I think just one filter in the corner does not circulate and filter the water efficiently.

Anyway, on to the fish. Can I ask where the lumps are appearing - are they along the lateral line? Or just anywhere? Can you check him for any red streaks in the fins or for red beneath his armpits.

Your fish does sound to have a heavy internal bacterial infection, for which I think the Sera Baktopur Direct is the better medication. But before going any further I want to check with Trinket, who has far more in depth knowledge of antibiotic suitability than I do. With things like this, it is vital to choose the most precise med for the job. And living in UK we have far less available to us than the US.

But meanwhile, I think you need a better means of regulating the water than 50% changes every other day - this is just not enough in a 4 gal tank. The meds and more importantly, the fish are hampered by ammonia readings of 0.5-1.0. Could you use a bag of zeolite to control ammonia in this uncycled tank? I think it would be less stressful for the fish than withstanding meds and ammonia. For meds to be effective the water must be perfect.

Let me get back to you later after speaking with Trinket.

I have added a tetratec external 700 to the main tank which has really helped in filtration and circulation.

The lumps seem to all be coming up just past his gills if that makes any sense ) : Say if the bracket is his gill and the dots are the lumps except they are also coming up higher and lower on his body. (sorry if that makes little sense )

I did noice today that he had one red streak in his fin.

I can change the water every day that is no problem, but i will also keep an eye out for a bag of zeolite to help with this also.

Thanks

I have added a tetratec external 700 to the main tank which has really helped in filtration and circulation.

Good move - a very good filter.

Trinket has been unwell - but hopefully she'll back on soon and we can make a decision on the meds.

One thing I will say with these kind of "cheesy" type excreting lesions, you should really be wearing latex gloves to clean the tank. The fluid that comes out is toxic because of the very high concentration of bacteria and it is wise as a precaution to wear gloves when cleaning. Occasionally there are (rare )cases of skin problems and skin disease in aquarists dealing with some of these kind of fish diseases.

That said, this could be lateral line ulcer disease but it could also be pasteurellosis or mycobacter which are rather more difficult to treat. Both those will probably only respond to antibiotics longterm.

Is there any swelling around the eye area? How does the fishes stomach look? Very thin or bloated?

I would say keeping him in a small QT is NOT good. Those releasing toxins will be a constant threat to recovery even with teh 50% water changes. You should aim for 100% clean water daily to keep the sores form picking up farther infection and taking that inside to make the disease systemic/internal.

I think a strong disinfectant type medication like the Baktopor direct would be the best start and see if you can clear it with that alone but if not you will probably need an antibiotic from a vet. It's difficult to say without a pic and farther symptoms which antibiotic would be appropriate so let's take it one step at a time and get going with a disinfectant type treatment first. Hopefully, caught in time that will be enough.

Thanks for your reply.
I am on the lookout for the sera baktopur direct but it seems hard to find......
I will buy some gloves if you think that I should, for when I clean the tank. A bigger hospital tank is unfortunatly out of the question but its no trouble at all to clean it out everyday (its alot easier to change the water in that than my 180 litres tank

If you know where I can get the baktopur direct that would help alot, so far i can only see one possible website selling it.

Give me a minute, I'll track down a link for you as I remember someone else recently asked about ordering it...

Here you go Baktopur Direct

Ok, £9.14 poorer but the baktopur direct has been ordered, thank you for the link.
Whilst I was ordering it i read that you use something like one tablet for 50 litres, so when it gets here i am just wondering how to calculate how much to put in. My tank is 21 litres so I guess I would chop the tablet in half and then chop a bit more off?

Yes exactly. Try and be as accurate as you possibly can with it. Alternatively you could use a 50 liter rubbermaid/plastic container or similar

If only I had the space. As it is I barely have room to walk in my room! My dad has just returned with latex gloves for me so I shall be doing a water change shortly. Thank you for all your help and I will update you when the medication comes.

Hi Lavinia!

I wish you the best with your fish! It's awful when they're sick!
I also wanted to comment on the gloves that you mentioned - and ask if they had powder inside them? I'm not 100% certain, but I believe it isn't good to use gloves with powder in them for fish tank. (The kind I use for cleaning have powder - that's why I ask)
Someone else may chime in with better info, but if your gloves don't have powder - then just ignore this message

Except for the best wishes for your fish! Don't ignore that!

Debbie

Thanks Debbie, I checked the gloves and you were right they had powder in so I did not use them.

The Baktopur Direct has arrived and I shall be putting it in tomorrow. I just have a few questions that I hope you can help me with.....
Should I dissolve the tablet in some tank water first and then pour it in the tank?
I am going to the fish shop tomorrow and am going to be looking for some zeolite, how much will i need? Where does it go, in the filter? If I dont have space in my filter then can it go in a breathable bag in the tank somewhere?

Spot is looking a bit better but he still has swelling on his side and I can see another lump coming so i really hope that this stuff helps.

As far as I remember they are fizzy tabs which disolve in the tank - check the box very clearly for directions as I'm sure it will say.
Next thing to address is that the baktopur will completely nuke your filter bacteria; so if you want to keep it alive you must move it - if not, put the bag of zeolite near the outlet and be sure to add an airstone for extra oxygen exchange; the meds depleat the water of oxygen.
Keep us posted

Thank you for your reply. I was asking about the Baktopur as the instructions are all in German and when I downloaded the english instructions it didnt say whether you put the tablet in the tank or dissolved it first.
Its a hospital tank so it does not matter about that filter bacteria, but the filter in the hospital tank is small so depending on how big the zeolite is I might not be able to put it inside the filter and in this case, like you said would it be ok to have it in the tank, somehow dangling next to where the filter outlet is?
I will add an extra airstone too, thats no problem.

Sorrry about all the questions, I just want to get it right!

Hi Lavinia, yes putting/dangling the zeolite either near the outlet of the filter or in the way of the airstone so that bubbles are passing over it will get you the best results

Oh thats great, thank you

How's this?

Directions for use:

Add 1 tablet per 50 litres (13 gal.) of aquarium water.
Make sure the aquarium is well aerated during treatment.
Switch off CO2-fertilization system. Remove carbon from filter.
After three days carry out a partial water change (50%) with sera aquatan. If the fish still show symptoms of disease, repeat treatment.

In case the disease is already in an advanced state we recommend to use sera baktopur direct by dipping the fish for a short but intensive period of time. Dissolve one tablet of sera baktopur direct in a two litre (0.5 gal.) container (e.g., small plastic tank) which is filled with aquarium water. Keep the sick fish for 30minutes in this container and then return the into the aquarium. Pour the bathing solution away and continue treatment in the aquarium with normal dosage.

Thank you.

I looked all over for some zeolite and there was none to be found so I bought Sera Toxivec. Which says it provides immediate protection, removng ammonia, nitrite and chlorine, and that you can add up to five fold the dose. Hopefully this will be ok for the time being to help with the ammonia.

Just make sure it is compatible with BakD - it should say as both products are Sera.

Also, I meant to say before that I think the dip option is a good idea, alongside the treament bath you'll be doing.

Hi,
Just a quick update. Spot has just finished his first treatment and still has a lump on him so i have decided to do a second treatment. I do think it is having some effect as all the other lumps would have gotten bigger by now, but the one on him currently has not got any bigger. I think I may also try the dip that was mentioned, will it be ok to do this in a bucket? As i dont have another tank handy?

Right tomorrow is the end of his second treatment. The swelling looks to be going down and the lump underneath does seem to be shrinking but its hard to tell because he is so nervous whenever I go near the tank now that I dont want to look for too long because it seems like I am scaring him

My question is can I dose the tank again? It did say that if the fish still show symptoms of disease then you could repeat the treatment, but how many times can I do it?

I have a photo of spot with the swelling and lump. Its difficult to see as I can't get too close or he gets scared.


Also, If anyone has used Baktopur Direct and knows the answer to the question above please help as I am unsure what to do.

I never used Baktapur, Lavinia, but I hope somebody will come along who does. Meanwhile, this will get you back on the top of the threads...

Thank you since no-one replied I just went ahead with another treatment and he is looking much better the swelling seems to be much improved and he is due for another treatment. I am hoping that one more dose and he will be all better.

Hi Lavinia - I'm sorry I've been ill and away from the board and wasn't able to help.
Just to clarify; have you now done 3 QT treatments plus the 2 litre bucket dip? (I felt the dip would be a good boost to treatment as the bac infection he has is strong.)
He seems to be progressing well - let us know where things are up to.

Don't worry about it at all I hope you are feeling better.

He has had 3 QT treatments and i am about to do the 4th today. I didnt do the bucket dip because he has been getting really stressed and I have been scared to stress him out futher by catching him and moving him about. But I am very happy with how he is progressing.

Glad to hear things are so much better Lavinia. Your fish is so pretty . And is looking quite good from what I can see. Younger white fish can have a pinkier look to them that is normal. I can't see any lumps now. If he is stressed with moving perhaps just the last 4th QT treatment then call it a day. I expect Pixie fish will step back in tomorrow to check on you and the judgement call.

Imo, I do see something strange looking - there is this one single shining scale about 1/2 inch away from the gill plate, and right next to that shiny scale there is something reddish/whitish that looks like its sticking out some. Maybe its my eyes playing tricks on me, and its nothing but an orange scale...

Is that what you mean with "bump", Lavinia?

Goodness yes you are right. I pulled out my magnifying lens and had a good look (this is what happens when I don't wear my reading glasses at the computer )..I can clearly see the bump and the exit place where it has opened. I haven't followed the whole thread here so maybe we should wait for Pixie next who is familiar with the Baktopur meds and how to use them.

Hi again. Well let's see what will be the best course to take.
I wonder if Trinket has an opinion on the actual med: The active ingredient in the Bak D is Nifurprinol at a dose of 27.6mg. My feeling is that as this seems to be a well established internal infection, that the extra measure of dipping the fish (1 tab in 2 Litres container for 30 mins, then returned to the already treated QT) may be necessary. It is also possible to buy BaktoTabs med food - again the ingredient is Nifurprinol but it will be going straight into the fish and perhaps be more effective.
I'm not 100% certain about the effectiveness of this drug on the mycobacterial infections if this is indeed what we are dealing with- trouble is that this is about the only thing we can get here at the moment.
So, just to review things so far; the fish is constantly producing white bumps which eventually burst, releasing a white stringy trail. We think it is most likely a mycobacterial infection but I'm also wondering about Hexamita, too. Are there any other features you are able to describe - weight loss, folded fins, dulled colour, fish off its food, hollow-bellied appearance, stringy, off-color faeces - any other info like this would be useful.

Wow, this thread got busy whilst I was away!

The photo that I put up was to show the swelling and the last remaining lump. I might not have been clear, but since treating with the baktopur direct no more new lumps have appeared. When I began treating he had alot of swelling around one big lump. This lump is very slowly getting smaller. Before the treatment, a lump would appear and within a few days would start popping and then another would come up and repeat the process, but as I have said since the treatment began no new lumps have come up.

On the photo where you can just see the lump, the dark orangey/yellow area was where it was swollen. After the last treatment the swelling has pretty much gone and the lump is even smaller. I would try and get another photo to show you but it is near impossible, but I will keep trying.

To answer your questions Pixiefish the only other things that seem to be wrong with him from your list is that about a week ago he had some white stringy poo. He has been eating as normal, no fins have been down, no weight loss.....nothing. Hes just become alot more nervous but I would imagine that to be because of the much smaller tank that he has found himself in.

If you really do think I should go ahead with the 30 mins treatment then I will do this, but like I said he is really improving to my eye and I am reluctant to stress him anymore in fear that it will make him worse.

Much thanks

Ah - this sounds more encouraging. So the photo was from before.
Well, I think Trinket is going to take a look in soon so let's see what she thinks about doing the dip. Sounds like it may not be necessary however, getting the BaktoTabs may not be a bad idea just to be certain that all the internal infection is squashed.
I'm signing off now but will check back in later

I will buy the BaktoTab's if someone knows where to get them/has a link, as I have not seen them anywhere.
Thanks again

Try clicking here

http://www.aquaristic.net/sera-baktotabs-250-ml.html?lang=1

I think this is the Sera site in Germany so the prices are in Euro's. I'm not sure where else, if anywhere, one can get them in UK, but you could even phone and ask if they have an outlet here.
If the site comes up in German there is a union jack somewhere you can click on to change to English. I hope Trinket might give the thumbs up or down on whether or not you need to order them.

I am sure the food if you can get it would be useful to have. I agree the dip might be stressful at this point if his owner thinks so. If owner and fish are not 100% comfortable with doing dips they have a tendency to go wrong....and cause farther stress and problems.
if you can get the food soon, go for it. That will get the meds right into the inside of the fish where the bacteria still are.

Interesting they calculate the amount to feed in terms of fish length not weight. It's a good idea maybe. Easier! Nifurprinol is one of the nitrofurans- a synthetic antimicrobial. A kind of antibiotic but in a group of its own. It's very strong and the taste is foul appaarantly. It's a medication that I haven't heard used much in oral foods, maybe for that reason, but thats no reason not to try it. It will kill many bacteria strains and if its all you can get over there, I should try it. It may be they have managed to mix it with krill etc in a way to make it more palatable, it doesn't list other ingredients in that link. Hopefully your fish will eat it!

Thank you Trinket. I dont think I will do the dip for the time being. Also I would love to get that food, but Its going to cost me almost as much in shipping as the actual food and I wil be waiting a while for it t get here. Plus, with you saying that it tastes foul apparantly, I think it would be a waste of money and time as my fish is VERY fussy. If it really does taste foul then I know he will just spit it out and I have already paid so much for the other stuff for him that for the moment I cant afford to buy something that will just sit there. Of course, if it comes down to it, I will try the food, but Im not sure its really an opition for me at the moment.

Yes, I do understand the difficulty. Out of interest - how much did the Tabs come to in £'s against the shipping costs?

Right, I have managed to find the food for half the price that I originally found, from the same site that I got the baktopur direct from and I have bought it. So it will probably take a week or so to get here but it is on its way.

On the site that you linked to, the Tabs were £11 and the delivery £10! But I have managed to get them at £5 Tabs and £5 delivery, which was much more acceptable!

My goodness - that's great. Where? Do tell, so we can add the info to the UK list that Claire has been working on.

From http://www.reptilica.co.uk/ That is also where I got the other Sera products from that I couldnt get over here.

Good job, Lavinia - this is so much cheaper than the Aquaristic site, although both are in Germany.

Right just a quick update. I got an email that I should expect the food tomorrow so I shall be feeding it him from then. Ive been at uni since sunday and my dad has been looking after him for me and now i have come back I really do think he is looking improved. He still is hiding and acting nervous when I try and take a peek at him but before when he was acting like this his lump was still very obvious and now I cant see anything.
He has completed the Baktopur Direct treatment now and I am hoping that the food (if he will eat it!) will well and truly rid him of the bacteria inside of him

The food did not arrive yesterday but should be here today.

New update- I have moved Spot back into the main tank. I did this because the was scaring me pretty badly. He was swiming forwards and backwards slamming himself against the sides each time with a horrible thud. I made the decision there and then to move him back into the biger main tank as I was scared he would hurt himself badly. Now he is in the big tank he is acting completely normal and looks happy to be back with his friends.
I would have rather have had him in the smaller tank for another wek or so while I fed him the food but he left me with no choice.

Now I can see in proper light and without him getting nervous, the swelling has completely gone, the lump is a very small sort of dimple. I will be keeping a close eye on it and if it looks to get any bigger he will be back in the small tank again to have more treatment.

Also, I am guessing that I cant feed him the food in the main tank without killing of the bb's? If so then I wil have to wait to see if it looks like he will need the food and if so move him again.

You can feed the antibacterial food just fine, Lavinia - it will do nothing to the bbs in the tank or the filter. What kills the good bb are some meds that go into the tank. Food will be fine - it is only confined to the fish's body, so to speak, and can't harm the bacteria anywhere in the tank.

Oh thank you thats great. I will go ahead and feed him the food. It arrived and they are huge! Will have to soak and break them up a bit!

Oh, I have another question.... I have two other fish in the tank as well as spot. I will only be feeding spot the med food. Will the other fish be ok? I will feed them normal food at the same time. I pretty much hand feed the fish and spot is the fastest one to get to food so I dont think there is any chance they can get some med food by mistake. But i just wanted to make sure that it will be ok for them to be in the tank too.... Thank you

If your other fish fetch a couple of pellets of mediated food by accident, that shouldn't do much harm. What I would worry more is that Spot gobbles up his meds, and then continues on to the other fishs' food.

Oh, and I wouldn't soak the medicated food too long - the meds might partially release from the pellets, and it would be less effective. Are the pellets easy to break? I would just test it - drop a few pellets into a small container with water, and see how fast they get softer.

He is greedy so I will have to hand feed them all to make sure no-one gets the wrong foods!

I will do a test with some of the pellets like you say to see how long they take. Thank you very much for your help

I just wanted to add that this is a very strong med so I think it would be advisable to ensure that the others do not get any. As RanchG says it's also going to undermine treatment if Spot gets any of the ordinary stuff, too. Perhaps you could feed him alone in a breeding trap or floating basket of some sort - anything that separates him from the others.
I think they also suggest partial water-changes daily with this food; it's pretty strong stuff. But check the instructions on your box to confirm if I am right, or not.