I got my first fish 4 days ago and I have been stressed out ever since I got it. I purchased a black moor goldfish without knowing I needed to have my tank running 1-2 days before putting a fish in there. The lady at nnnn told me not to keep my fish in the bag over night so I just put my fish (Zeebo) in the tank and just hoped he'd live. I have a 20 gallon tank which came with a filter. I don't know what kind of power the filter has... it came with the tank (a starter kit). This being my 4th day with Zeebo, his tank looks cloudy. I don't understand why. I thought the filter would help with the cloudiness. The water is filled to an inch away to the top. I feed him twice a day (morning, evening) with goldfish flakes and he always eats them immediantly.

I keep reading about "water cycling." What is that? Today I bought a gravel vacuum but I couldn't get it to work. it looks like this http://www.nnnn.com/product/index.jsp?...ch&keepsr=1
So I just changed 30% of Zeebo's water today and put conditioner and enzymes in it. I thought that would help with the cloudiness but it's still cloudy. I am very attached to him and I am stressing out because I am afraid he's going to die due to the cloudiness. I've decided to get my water tested at nnnn tomorrow. But I dont' know what to do about the cloudiness. I only have one fancy fish in a 20 gallon tank, so it's not overstocked...

Advice, please???

Howdy Dollface! welcome to Koko's. I got some questions for you and I'd also like for you to read this link.

* Test Results for the Following:
Ammonia Level?
Nitrite Level?
Nitrate level?
Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)?
Ph Level out of the Tap?
* Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running?
* What is the name and size of the filter/s?
* How often do you change the water and how much?

# How many fish in the tank and their size?
# What kind of water additives or conditioners?
# Any medications added to the tank?
# Add any new fish to the tank?
# What do you feed your fish?
# Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt",
bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
# Any unusual behavior like staying
at the bottom, not eating, ect..?

If you could answer all those questions as best you can then we'll try to help you to keep your fish from croaking!

The water cycling is basically when your tank and filter develop enough benifical bacteria to keep harmful chemicals like ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates in a balance that is safe for the fish to live in.

* Test Results: I took my water to the pet store 3 days ago and he did not tell me the specifics he just said that my water "looks good." i will go back tomorrow and ask for specifics.
* Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? My tank is 20 gallons and has been running for 4 days.
* What is the name and size of the filter/s? The brand name is "Top Fin 10" It came with my tank.
* How often do you change the water and how much? I changed 25-30% for the first time today because it looks cloudy.

# How many fish in the tank and their size? I only have one black moor goldfish
# What kind of water additives or conditioners? I use Stress Coat and Stress Zyme
# Any medications added to the tank? Nope
# Add any new fish to the tank? Nope
# What do you feed your fish? Fish flakes twice a day
# Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt",
bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Nope
# Any unusual behavior like staying
at the bottom, not eating, ect..? The first couple of days I had him, he "slept" a lot. But I don't see him resting as often now. That's the only unusual behavior I have seen

Well I can pretty much tell you that in a new tank your water params are all screwed up anyway.

OK the Top Fin 10 only filters 50 gallons per hour (gph). When keeping goldfish you need to have 10x the filtration per hour per gallon. All of that blah blah blah translates into this: You have a 20 gallon aquarium so you need to have a filter system that filters 200gph. At the moment your tank is grossly under filtered to be keeping a goldfish in it. If you would like to stick with the top fin brand the Top Fin 40 turns over 200gph. Goldfish require so much filtration because they are EXTREMELY dirty fish. Think of them as a very cute underwater pig. While your at the pet store I'd like you to pick up an API fresh water master test kit. If you can't afford one at least get some quick dip test strips. Test strips are not as accurate as drop tests but it is better than nothing.

Because your tank is still cycling you will need to test the water every day and do water changes every day until your tests read 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites. Your Nitrates will not be 0 in a fully cycled tank. The lowest nitrates should be in a cycled tank in 5ppm (that's parts per million). Nitrate readings higher than 20 is BAD. If you are reading 0 nitrates then your tank is not cycled. The ph is another water param you need to keep an eye on. Goldfish need a ph around 7.5ish. You don't want it lower than 7.0 or higher than 7.8.

What you need to do RIGHT NOW is 100% water change. Make sure you match the temperature as closely as possible so that your fish doesn't get a temp shock from the difference.

It takes a tank around 6 - 8 weeks to establish a cycle. You can speed it up A LITTLE by adding BB (benifical bacteria) supplements like Cycle. That's not the best BB sup out there but it is fairly available just about anywhere. You will have to do at least a partial water change once a day until it cycles. At least 50 - 75% of the water.

IF (and I'm really hoping this doesn't happen) but if your fish does die don't give up on goldfish. If the fish dies just change the water once a week still testing it often. Don't put any fish in the tank until your ammonia and nitrites read 0.

I think that's pretty much every thing but I'm sure that if I missed something then one of my other buddies here will pick up my slack. Good luck with you little one and please keep me posted. I'll be following this thread anxiously!

OH my gosh!!!

I have class 9-10am, then 11am-1pm. I am going to run to the store at 10am to test my water, get testing strips (if it's not too expensive) and a new filter.

I just finished doing about a 90-95% water change. I'm so frustrated my water is STILL cloudy looking. Will that bother my fish? Can I install a new filter immediantly?

I will tell you my testing results as soon as I get back. THANK YOU SO MUCH for your help!

Cloudy water is normal in a new tank. Its not great, but its normal. You need to allow the tank to cycle, which will take time. Read up about cycling a tank, there's a lot of great information on this site and elsewhere. Then ask questions.

Long story short: your fish's waste contains ammonia. Ammonia is bad for fish. Eventually, 'beneficial bacteria' (BB) will build up that turns ammonia into nitrite. Problem is, nitrite is still bad. Good news, is another type of BB will build up that turns the nitrIte into nitrAte. Nitrate still isn't great, but its a heck of a lot better than ammonia and nitrIte.


You need to allow time for those BBs to find your tank and build up. In the meantime, you have to make sure that ammonia & nitrIte don't get to high. You can do this by having test kits available (strips are *ok* and quick,but drops are better (more accurate) ). During cycling you need to run test at least daily - but twice daily is even better.

Also, you could consider picking up some water conditioner (AmQuel+, perhaps with its combo product NovAqua+, can't be beat - Prime is pretty good too). This will help keep your ammonia and nitrite at bay. Its good *in addition to*, not instead of, water changes.

I got real worried about Zeebo so I skipped my 11am class to get a larger filter, testing strips, and aquarium salt. I can tell the aquarium is already starting to clear up. Here are my test results. the pH had an inbetween color btw.

GH: 30
KH:40
pH: 7.0-7.5
NO2: 0
NO3: 0

How's Zeebo behaving today? Did you get an ammonia reading for your tank. Ammonia builds much faster than the other chemicals and is the most dangerous to the fish. The other readings look normal for how young the tank is and are not harmful at the moment. You don't want the ammonia to build because it damages the fish's cells and causes a whole host of problems.

Amquel+ might cost more, but it will protect your fishie from feeling the effects of ammonia and nitrite.

You're in good hands here, I started off the same as you. My moor died, but that was well before I found Koko's. Your fish can and will survive the cycling if you're very dilligent about your water changes, keep an eye on the ammonia and nitrites. If you notice your fishie bottom sitting or clamping his fins to his body, do a water change. If you think he's not feeling well, do a water change. Most problems can be helped immensely with water changes, even if you're doing it twice a day...and look in to using salt for stressed fish. API aquarium salt at 0.1%. Oh and BTW, never dunk test strips in to the tank. Pull some water out in a cup. If you have to, suck on the siphon to get it started. Have someone at your pet store show you how to use it, then be very careful you don't suck your fishie up!

Once your tank is cycled, you can relax and do less work! A cycled tank is very rewarding, believe me... I agree with RYUU, don't give up on goldfish keeping if Zeebo doesn't make it. The fact that you came to Koko's shows that you care, goldfish need more caring people in this world!

Zeebo is acting strange right now... he's doing this twitching kind of movement while swimming around the tank. I noticed some small gold spots on him. They aren't very noticeable so I don't know if it's been there the entire time or not... but he's a black moor... i'm going to run back to the store to get AmQuel+. the testing strips I got don't have ammonia. I am going to take my water to the store and test for ammonia. I can't thank you all enough for your guidence. I hope Zeebo can live through my rocky beginning.

This behavior is probably from the high ammonia levels.

I made a little video clip to show you how to use a siphon. NEVER suck on a siphon to start the flow. You could get fish water and germs from the tank in your mouth and that's just nasty.

http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k21/mags...rent=siphon.flv Please watch the video it will help!

Yup, I got a mouthfull one time...but I had no choice, I couldn't get it started again!

Good video, I've been going about it all wrong! Can't wait to try it your way...

Thanks for the video clip!

I got the ammonia tested and it's 0. The fish person at the store said that the cloudiness could be from feeding him twice a day. He suggested that I should only feed Zeebo once every other day. Is that what I should do? The water tests say that the water is fine... this has become a mystery to me...

Aw! You're hooked! I've skipped work when I had a sick fish at home that needed me.

Good luck with your cycling! It's a pain, but well worth it in the end.

Congrats on the new fish!

I had to make an emergency move with my fish to my 55g Im going through a cycle as well I found the first I had no readings then your ammonia will start to rise now its finnally dropped to 0 now my nitrItes are on the rise (which takes the longest of the cycle) with 1 fish in your in your 20 g daily water changes and constant water readings you should be o.k It's nerve racking to go through a cycle with your pet just listen to your fish he knows best . best of luck

oh yea!!! it's ok to feed you fish every other day it wiil probably hurt you more than him or once a day just 1 or 2 flakes

The twice a day feedings could be whats making your water cloudy.It also depends on what brand/type of food your giving him.Some brands say they wont cloud your water but do anyway.lol.It could be your giving him/her too much food for it to consume leaving food in the tank making the water cloudy.Alot of times when i was starting out the cloudy water was just because i was feeding the little boogers too much.Your fish should be fine.One fancy in a 20 gallon is pretty good.Congradulations on your new buddie btw.

Meeee toooo! It's like having a sick kid at home, you just don't want to leave them when they're feeling bad...

Yes you can feed the fish once every other day while the tank is cycling but you'll want to go back to feeding at least once a day after the tank finishes cycling. Daily feedings are one factor that helps support their proper growth rate. Once you tank cycles the cloudiness will clear up. Ya just gotta be patient.

Can you post a pic of your fish. I'd like to get a good idea of his over all condition. Since Zeebo is new you need to be aware that he (or she) could have picked up an illness(es) and/or parasites from the other fish at the pet store. The twitching movement - is he flicking his fins really fast? How's his breathing? is he going to the surface and sucking air from the top of the water? The gold spots that you see are likely to be just his coloration. If you feed him color enhancing foods it's quite likely that he'll turn gold.

Every time I get a new fish I always get a scrape sample of their slime coat and gills to look for parasites under the microscope. I know the average hobbyist doesn't have a microscope but you may not need one to tell if he's got buggies. If Zeebo starts flicking his fins, darting, flashing, rubbing on things in the tank, or panting at the surface then these could be signs that he harbors something unpleasant.

Can fish catch diseases from dead fish? When I got Zeebo there was a dead fish floating in the tank where all the fish were. You have a good point about the gold spots... I'm using the fish flakes that came in my aquarium's starter kit. It says it "enhances color." I will look for another brand.

Oh and I will upload a picture to show you sometime tonight.

If you had to live ing a house with a rotting dead person don't you think you'd get sick? LOL I'd like to recommend either hikari goldfish pellets or omega one sinking pellets as a staple diet. These are good foods to use as a regular diet. If a black more has a few gold spots then there's really not much you can do to keep him from changing color. Even if you feed a crappy diet eventually he probably will change color.

Goldfish like treats too! Try feeding him fruits and veggies every now and then. Most of them love oranges, shelled peas, spinach, zucchini, and all kinds of stuff. Mine even like apples. Goldfish thrive off of a diversity in their diets and they can eat a lot of different things.

dollface,

You haven't mentioned anything about aeration, do you have an airstone in your tank? For a 20 gallon, I'd say at least two sources of bubbles would be a good start. Bubbles help eliminate toxins from the water. And RYUU is correct about the veggies, they will also hlep your fishies immune and digestive system. My fish love peas especially and they're easy to feed, be sure to break them up in to bite size pieces.

Here's a pic of my tank, I have lots of bubbles...

Click to view attachment

Hi dollface and welcome to kokos

It looks like you have had some sound advice on filtration, food and caring for your new fish and the cycle of your tank. One thing I would like to say is that your fish may to be suffering from a parasitic disease called gold-dust disease or velvet. This begins with a light dusting of tiny gold spots that look more obvious on a black fish but can go un-noticed on an orange fish. The fish will bottom sit as the trophants get ahold and twitching is a common feature. The fact that there was one dead fish in the tank where you bought your new fish makes it even more likely that this is velvet.

This is a trophant disease almost exactly the same in course and duration as the famous white spot disease ich. Unfortunately it needs treating fast.

You can treat this by dosing your tank with 0.3% salt of the right kind. If you follow the link in my sig you can read about what kind of salt to use and how much (it is one teaspoon per US gallon repeated 3 x with 12 hour intervals).

I am going to move this thread to diagnosis where you will get some farther advice.

Hey Dollface! No real advice, just wanted to offer support. My tank was rather cloudy at first too, but it settled down.

I'm guessing you're in college too? I didn't know there were any other college students who were also moor fans. I wish I had room for a 20 gallon in my dorm, I'm jealous. Hopefully everything goes well with Zeebo. You're off to a much better start than I was when I came here with a dying fish in an overstocked tank.

Wow... I'm getting really scared now. When I think back to when I got my fish in the store, I remember seeing some of the black moors with a lot of gold on them. I thought they were changing colors. i never thought it could have been a disease. I followed directions and put salt in his tank. What kind of medication can I give him? I can't wait to clean his gravel and do another cycle tomorrow. I hope he can hang in there til 11am tomorrow.

Alyssa- Yes I'm a college student. I live in an on-campus apartment so that makes life a lot easier. I keep my aquarium in the living room for now. Hopefully next year I can live in the apartments with 1 person bedrooms, so I can have the aquarium in my room to make sure drunk people don't mess with my fish on weekends. My roommate doesn't like the water sounds the filter makes... although I argue that it's a soft, relaxing noise.

I have tanks on both sides of my bed and I sleep like a baby... except when I have to pee all the time, I think the water sound does that.

I have 9 of my tanks in my bedroom and one of them has an airpump that sounds like a freight train but it doesnt bother me at all

Sounds like it's time for a new airpump? Does someone need a visit from the gift-card fairie?

lol, the airpump came with the tank and I never had the money to get a different one, a gift card would be nice

Photobucket was giving me serious issues today but the website is now giving me no problems... so that means photo time! here are a few photos of Zeebo. I have one upclose one to show the gold/orange specs that may be gold dust disease. Is it really??

You have a beautiful moor! I have a demekin and she has gold on her, too, but not in that area. It is on her belly. I am sure RYUU or Trinket will be of more help in that area. Hang in there, Hon, you are doing a great job! Don't give up! We are all here for you!!!!

Have you raised salt according to Trinkets thread instructions? Three doses of 1tsp per gal staggered in 12 hour intervals? The salt kept at this level is the medicine you need and will kill the parasite. Remember that each time you make a water change you must add back salt for the volume you've removed.
Do post back with any questions.

It's hard to tell in the pics but I think I can see some gold -rusty -dust on the head? It will be on the top of the fishes body if its golddust disease and if you see the orange color underneath your moor's belly as Nickie says that will be changing color. You said all the fish had this dust on them in the store tank-and one dead? Well, all the fish wouldn't be changing color at the same time and changing color is not fatal.

Odinium -the name of the velvet parasite- produces tiny pustules on the fish that are much finer than Ich spots. In fact they are so fine they are often not seen till late stages.The pustules are rust or gold colored and when you can see them you are seeing a group of parasites, a colony. If you shine a torch on top of the fishes back you will see the typical golden shimmer of velvet disease.

You should salt because this disease affects the fishes gills. I recommend you treat with salt and use a copper medication.

It's very likely that your fish is carrying something if he was in a tank with a dead fish and as a rule of thumb all new fish should be treated for parasites anyway on arrival. Especially from average commercial petstores-they will surely be carrying something. Salting to 0.3% catches many parasites and bacterial infetcions in the bud . Its a mild medication and it works. If you are careful you can also monitor a cycle through salting. It will be slower but it can be done. This means checking for ammonia daily and changing out water/adding back correct amount of salt with each new change of water. You must keep a salt diary. Its very important to keep close track so you don't go above the correct dosage.

If you feel unable to do this, timewise, then you should at leastb get hold of some copper meds soon.

Your cute little moor looks not too bad with his dorsal raised and swimming about. If you treat soon, he will manage the meds far better and you can feel safer, rather than waiting till he may get worse. If you are still unconvinced, please take a look at some pics of velvet here at kokos (see disease pics) and on the net and get a torch and shine it along the fishes back.

My first ever fish was a moor. I have a special love for moors and demekins- yours is a total sweetheart

Awww...I love your Moor. One of my first fishies, and my second fishie were Moors. The second one was Bender, hence the name "luvbender" he died so unexpectedly...then I found Koko's. Just do exactly as Trinket said, she's really great and has helped me through a couple of rough spots.

Hey Dollface how's Zeebo today? Trinket gave you all the good advice you need so I've got nothing to add to that. I was just wondering how y'all are doing.

Zeebo is doing well today. He's swimming around, eating then spitting out rocks as normal. Haha. I did about a 20% water change and have been treating him with salt since last night. I replaced the salt today. I decided not to feed him today, maybe tomorrow? His water is looking better. I'm beginning to wonder... what if he doesn't have gold dust disease and I still put carbon in this tank? Will that hurt him?

Quick update: My water has cleared up!! Zeebo has been "sleeping" a lot lately, I don't know if that normal... I am going to nnnn to get the copper medicine and ask a worker to show me how to use a gravel vacuum.

If he is sleeping a lot, that might not be so good. Is he sitting on the bottom? That's called "bottom sitting" and means he's not feeling well. You're doing great though, good job on getting all the meds he needs. You ROCK!

I don't understand... luvbender is right. Zeebo has been bottom sitting the last few days. He's been doing it the most today which I don't understand because I've been doing everything! Water changes daily, salt, water testing (water is perfect), larger filter, vacuumed gravel... I thought about getting aeration but I'm getting broke. I suppose all I can do now is play the waiting game. I hope he starts to feel better. I'd like for him to eventually have a friend.

He was giving me what I call "kisses" on my hand while I was cleaning his gravel. So cute. I never thought I would get so attached to a fish. Thank you everyone for your advice! I've learned SO MUCH in the last few days.

"what if he doesn't have gold dust disease and I still put carbon in this tank? Will that hurt him?"

Carbon just strips meds and impurities out of the water and cannot hurt the fish. When are you expecting the copper meds?Until a parasite load is killed off a fish will feel ill and bottom-sit. What are the water readings looking like today?

Goldfish are the best at returning our affection, I so love them for this reason. An airpump only costs about 5 to 7 dollars, the tubes and the airstones are pennies a piece. The air carries the ammonia to the surface so it can evaporate. I wish I could have the gift card fairie visit your house, but I can't. Just keep in mind that aeration is important and if you get a couple of bucks, it's not that expensive.

Have someone at the pet store explain how to divide the air so you can have two airstones going.

"The air carries the ammonia to the surface so it can evaporate."

This is not right. Ammonia doesn't evaporate, it has to be either converted by beneficial bacteria or removed through water changes in a still cycling tank. The reason an airstone is needed, especially whilst running meds, is that medications depleat the water of oxygen.

Today's reading are the following:

General Hardness (GH): 0ppm
Carbonate Hardness (KH): 40ppm
pH: 6.5-7.0 (inbetween color)
Nitrite (NO2): 0ppm
Nitrate (NO3): 0ppm

Is the copper medicine effecting the hardness?

My fish has been bottom sitting A LOT the last 24 hours. I find it interesting that he always does it next to the same plant in the same corner.

Yikes it sounds as if your cycle has crashed - no nitrates and a dropping PH. You don't mention ammonia? These conditions make copper very toxic and unsafe.
Which med are you using?
Are your testers drops or strips? Strips are not reliable enough and I think you must be absolutely certain of the actual numbers for safety's sake.
I think you need to do a large water change as these results (if they are accurate) are not good for the fish.
Post back........

Gotcha...sorry for the misleading information.

OMG... I am getting even more frustrated! Nothing is going right! Why can't I get the hang of this? What am I doing wrong? I thought I had everything down.

EDITx2: should I not replace the copper? Oh and I forgot to add, I am using CopperSafe by Mardel

Dollface,

We've all written this message - Stressed out, not sure if we're doing the right thing...the right thing is that you care so much! How is Zeebo doing? Did he make it through the treatments?

Let us know what's going on OK? Don't give up on goldfish, they are a most rewarding challenge.

Zeebo is fine. he's just been bottom sitting a lot still... I'm wondering if maybe that's just what he likes to do? I don't know but after he eats he stays active for a while until night time... and he'll start bottom sitting again, occasionally swim a lap or two around the tank then will sit.

Zeebo now hangs out at the top of the tank in the same corner, swimming around occasionally. Is this the same as bottom sitting except at the top? he just floats... it almost looks like he's dead.