hi all!
First, i'd like to say been reading through the site, and love all the info. Secondly, im a new GF owner, so go gentle on me.

new 55gal tank, 5 GF with 3 swordtails, fake plants, bottomless tank, 2 whisper filters one for 50-60 gallon tanks one 20 gallon, temp around 76-79 degrees, feed peas, sinking flakes, oranges, frozen GF shrimp. i do 20% - 40% water changes

? I got Gator about 3-4 weeks ago along with the other GF, "he's" a black moor and about a week ago i noticed white spots on him, and he was top sitting alot. wouldnt internact w/ the other fish. them others seem fine. went to pet store, they told me it was Ich, and gave me some meds for him. read and followed all directions, turned my water blue. Gator was back to normal, swiming and eating for about 5 mins. then back to topsitting. i did a WC at 20% 2 days later. the white spots got WORSE! They are all over his body now!!! PH level is 7.5, ammiona is between .25 and .5 havent check nitrites since WC this AM. I went out this afternoon and bought aqur. salt, added 1 tsp to new water. Lights are turned off and tank is covered, i believe all this med, WC, and salt is going to stree them out.
What am i doing wrong and what in the world is wrong with Gator?
thanks for the help in advance

Hi Shari Lynn and Welcome!

I think whatever mod or helper gets to your post is definitely going to need your nitrite level as this is as dangerous to your fish as ammonia. While you're waiting for one of them to give you some advice I'd do a large water change...more like 75% and back off on the salt while you are showing ammonia levels in the water. Water changes don't stress fish out. Its a good thing for them as water quality can be at the root of many problems and illnesses. And it would be really helpful to them to know what kind of goldies you have in there, as comets and fancies have different water requirements. You've been reading the forum, so you probably know that the rule of thumb around here is 20 gallons for each comet and 10 gallons per fancy.

One thing...aren't swordfish tropicals?

Good luck and I'm sure someone will be here soon and help you out!

Hmmm you should not have Goldfish with Tropicals . I have found that Jungle Parasite Clear works well. You should remove carbon from your filters and do at least 50% water change then add meds. follow directions on box.

Any time you do a water change, the temp must be matched. I gave my moor Ich one time, my new water was too warm. If I'm not mistaken though, I guess the fish can be carrying Ich for weeks, it's just the stress of a change in water temp that will bring it out.

Am I wrong...anyone?

Please provide the following details when requesting help for Goldfish Problems:

• Test Results for the Following:
  Ammonia Level? .5
  
• Nitrite Level? .1
• 
  Nitrate level? 2.5
  
• Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)? 7.4
  Ph Level out of the Tap?
• [/size]
• Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? 55 gal about 1 1/2 months
• What is the name and size of the filter/s? whispher power filters one is for 30-60 gal 330 gph the other is same brand for 20 gal 105 gph
• How often do you change the water and how much? once a week 20% vaccuum gravel, gravel removed today, now bare bottom

how many fish in the tank and their size? 5 GF 2 moores, 3 fantail all about 4 inchs, 3 swordtails

What kind of water additives or conditioners? prime by seachem, stability, biozyme, 1 teaspoon aquaium salt added today


[b][size="1"]Any medications added to the tank?[/b] before 50% water change ApPro Quick Cure

Add any new fish to the tank? no


[b]What do you feed your fish?[/b] freeze dried bloodworms, NutraFin Flake food, bro balance tubiflex worms, peas, oranges,grapfruit


Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt",
bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? grains of salt on 1 black moore, got worse after quick cure med (recommended from pet store, said it sounded like ich)

<LI>Any unusual behavior like staying
at the bottom, not eating, ect..? the one moore seems to isolate himself from the rest, clamped fins, not swimming much, top sitting, will eat only when hand fed


i added the swordtails w/ GF becuse they were in the tank w/ GF at store, i thought they were pretty mixed with them. they seem to do just fine.

when adding new water to the tank after water changes, what is the best way to get the water temp the same? i let the water sit over night to reach room temp, will a few degrees through them off that much?

how do i get rid of this ich, my black moore Gator looks really bad, even around his eyes are covered by this stuff!!!! Please help!

If I was going through this I would do a 50% water change add Tetra Easy Balance with Nitraban. Pull the carbon from your filters. Add Jungle Parasite Clear follow directions on box.

Okay, take a deep breath and get ready to do a large temperature and pH matched water change immediately. You shouldn't be keeping trops wityh goldies, their needs are so different. Plus you are showing nitrites and ammonia, which, however slight needs out immediately. the other poster who said ich is brought on by temp changes is right, be careful to match temperature (use your little finger to test) of water going in and coming out.

Is there any way you can separate these fish? Do you have a rubbermaid container or the like to transfer the goldies into for example?

I'm personally not a fan of quickcure even though it seems to be in the headlines here at kokos these days, it is so difficult to dose accurately and should not be used in a trop tank with temps over 70 which doubles its toxicity..it also needs to be used in dim lighting as any brighter light will deactivate it. Personally I would take out the meds via water changing and start over.

You need to salt your tank and there is a link in my sig on how to do that with the right kind of salt to 0.3% (explained in link, plse read carefully). The salt needs to stay in the tank for 6 days after you see the last ich spot. that may mean about 10 days from now...and because water changes meanwhile are CRUCIAL you must keep careful track of how much salt you put in and take out. Salt does not dissolve and disappear, it dissolves and stays. So you do a 50% w/c daily? (recommended) then you put back half the total amount of salt thats in there.

If you are confused by salt, you can continue with the quickcure but you have to remember to keep lights off, half the dosage at high temps and with tropicals so getting the dose accurate is tricky...

One last important point. Are you sure this is ich??? Male fish can have small white spots on their gill covers that means they are ready to breed. Ich will usually be on the fins and sometimes body of the fish. Please post back soon.

thanks for ur reply....

im not 100% sure its ich but OMG its all over him! some are long grainy like and some are round, some are smaller than others, his fins are dropped, and he's not moving around much. i dont think its "breeding time", dont they have to be older to breed?

plus, its really late a night to do a watwr change, i chnaged the water this morning, would it be fine to do a WC in the morning?

Shari this is not sounding like ich (or breeding marks). Is there any chance at all you can get a pic up so we can diagnose more accurately? Adding the wrong meds is often worse than no meds.

yeah give me a few min.s i'll get that pic for you as quick as i can

Great. You can paste the IMG tag nto a post ifrom photobucket.com.

sorry if them seem blurry, he hangs out near the water flow. hopefully you can seem them ok

What a pretty moor he is, the poor little guy! Kind of looks like ich to me, but Trinket will let you know for sure. Don't worry. If its ich, it is very easy to get rid of and she'll talk you through it. They are a nasty pain, but once you get rid of them and get everything else straightened out he'll be just fine.

Poor baby looks like ich to me

This is a combination of ich and nitrite poisoning.
I read back through the description of your water and see you have nitrites sitting at 2.5 This is deathly toxic levels of nitrites!!!!!!

Yes your moor has ich. It affects the gills badly. So do nitrites which are absorbed by the red blood cells and disable the fishes ability to take in oxygen. This is why he is so desperately clamped and at the surface.

Try not to panic and do an immediate water change. No, this will not wait till tomorrow. If you really cannot separate the fish tonight then you will have to continue with the Quckcure treatment that you have there because salting is not possible for treating trops.

Best of all is to separate these fish and at least the moor. If you could move the moor to treat him with 0.3% salt which is gentle in a 10 gallon tub with PLENTY of aeartion it would be good. If you have no extra bubbler then leave him where he is, that bubbler is keeping him alive right now.

You cannot use medication with any nitrites or ammonia showing in the tank. The results are lethal. Please post back and let us know what /how much you are able to do here re my suggestions.

thanks for the kind reply Vickie, seems like your favorite's always get sick doesnt it?!? I have 2 moors, but i love the color on Gator's belly....kinda picked him as a favorite, hate to seem him sad

While you're waiting for Imogen to return, I would like to say that just because the lfs puts fish together doesn't mean its a good thing. Sometimes their advice is well meaning, but totally incorrect. They also cram fish into tanks that are way too small and tell you that you should plan on 1 inch of water per goldfish. I actually had the lady that owns the lfs here try to talk me out of keeping my goldies because she said they are filthy and nasty. Her advice about the "fungus" that Moby had and the product she sold me for it almost killed him. Thats when I came here and now he is fine as froghair, lol. IMO, you shouldn't keep trops and goldies together, but whatever works...well...works. I have a betta with my tropicals and they are not supposed to be good community fish, but they all do very well together.

He is lovely and Gator is a cute name for him. Don't worry. As long as you treat him correctly he will be alright. I noticed in the pics that you have a heater in the tank, and that will come in handy during your treating him for the ich.

thanks again for your kind remarks

not only do i have a heater, but a thermador as well. LoL im top notch!

Shari I'm sorry I misread the nitrite readings, Vickie reminded me those were for nitrates...forgive me I was at work when I posted that reply and I had someone asking me to finish something by 4pm so I was in a hurry with my reply to you and now its after 4pm (and I met the deadline) I can return to your thread a little more calmly. So sorry. Life can interfere so

Anyways we have established your moor has ich. You do also need to get the slight nitrite and ammonia readings down to zero-those readings were after this mornings water change so may still have been much higher yesterday. Those need to be zero permanently.

Is it possible to separate the fish at all? I am still anxious about using formalin (Quick cure) at temps in the mid 70s where the toxixity level of formalin doubles and also feel this medication is very harsh on your moor who has caught this so badly.

I LOVE THIS SITE!!!! People helping fishies while at work! Thats so awsome!!! Thanks for your help, even at work!

I dont have another tank at this time, but If you recommend I seperate him, another tank it is.

I just woke up, so i havent done a reading on my nitrite and ammonia. I like to feed them first, wait about an hour then change the water. I will post a reading before and after the water change. Should I add the salt to their tank? I was confused on the salt thing yesterday, but i was reading other post on salting last night as i was waiting for your reply, and it all makes perfect sense now. I was REALLY under salting my tank in the begining. Better under salt than over salt right? LoL I only put 1 teaspoon in the water .

So when the time is right for salt, let me make sure i got this right. I have a 55gal and salting is 1 teaspoon per gal, and 3 teaspoon = 1 tablespoons, so i would need 18 tablespoons of aq. salt right? thats a little over a cup of aq. salt right? Wow! math scares me. Could some one re work this for me as i clean out the tank. I dont want to put too much in.

Ii will go out and get another 10 gal hospital tank this afternoon.
Thanks again for all the help!
Shari

You're right about the salt it might seem like a lot of salt but it's VERY calming for the fishies. 1 teaspoon per gallon, 12 hours later, another 1 teaspoon per gallon. 12 hours later, another 1 teaspoon per gallon. You will be amazed at how much better your fishie will seem just after the first salting. Good luck with your poor baby! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you both.

Ok, I'm going out now to get a 10 gal hopsital tank. I will add 20 percent of the 55 gal water w/ new water 10 teaspoons of aq. Salt and put Gator in there. What should the water temp in the 10 gal hospital tank be?

This may seem redundant, and I'm sure you know to do this, but please be sure to dissolve the salt fully in water before you add it. You can treat your fish for ich with salt, but a mod or someone will need to advise you on the doses for this. And I know that you raise the temps to speed the cycle up of the ich eggs, but again, they will have to tell you how to do this.

One thing also, I don't remember if you mentioned having gravel in the tank, but you will need to do a thorough gravel vac every day to get those boogers out. These parasites leave eggs in the gravel that will hatch. The thing that I have learned on here is that almost all tanks have ich, no matter how well they are cared for. Usually something happens to the water quality or another problem and that causes the fish to be susceptable to the parasite. Heck, the mods and helpers on here are practically marine biologists and I've learned more than I ever thought I could about fish and water params.

Good luck, and I hope Gator is better soon! I'm sure someone will get your post before long and give you some help.

Good catch, Vick!!! I was reading this post and noticed that no one had brought up the vacuming you need to do with ich!!! The syphoning of the tank bottom gets the eggs that can hatch later on!!! I hope your moor gets better soon, Shari!!! He is so beautiful!!! Imo (Trinket) will steer you in the right direction! She is amazing!!!

Hey guys
Great advice on the gravel vac, but after all this mess I have decided to go bare bottom. Plus I think I might have had way too much grave in there,and not cleaning it good enough, bare bottom looks great!
So I just picked up my hospital tank, its 16 gals. I'm going to dissolve the salt( that's 16 TEAspoons 1st 12hrs then repeat 2 more times right? ) and wait for the water to reach same temp as 55 gal, place Gator in the 16 gal and slowly raise the temp. I'll post all readings in a few.
Thanks for all the helpful ideas

You're doing great shari lynn! Gator will be better in no time. I also have a bare bottom tank, as the gravel just holds too many nasties and I was always afraid my syphon wouldn't clean it well enough. I love it! I have some glass pebbles and marbles on the bottom to break it up some, and Moby and Florence just love moving them around. I would not use gravel in a goldfish tank again, ever. But thats just me. Its whatever someone prefers.

Same here! I have never liked gravel and have not used it in a long time. It was too hard to keep clean and after reading about all the bacteria that can hide in it, I was glad I did away with it. I have river pebbles on the bottom of my tank and it is so much easier to clean and my fish love playing with them!

I hope your moor gets better soon Shari. I'm going thru the same thing except I've got 3 fish infected with ick. I also initially used quick cure but Trinket told me right away to stop and do salt treatment instead, which I am. I hope you don't mind me posting in your thread, but perhaps my question/s can benefit us both.

My question now is, will doing salt dips help make the treatment go faster? Reason I ask is, my ryukin looks REALLY bad, has the spots all over now and fins are frayed. The frayed fins are from his oranda tankmate who I caught nipping him when I got hom today. So I've had to separate him and now I've got 2 tanks undergoing ick treatment. He's hanging in there though, still comes up to see if there's food whenever I come near the tank, but otherwise he just sits at the bottom. I know there's still gonna be ick in the tank for a while, but can I do the salt dips to at least help get the ick covering his body off of him? Or should I just be patient and continue with the 0.3% salting? I'm just really worried, he looks so miserable and I wanna do everything I can to help him.

Shari just a quick word. Please read up on the nitrogen cycle (theres a link in my sig that explains it) as your tank is not cycled and that will be the underlying main issue of everything. You need to cycle your main tank for it to be safe and for this not to recur. It is the most important and first thing that must be understood and done starting out in this hobby.

And for Gator in the QT as everytone has said, raise the salt at 12 hr intervals. There is a link in my sig that explains that too. Good luck to you and your fishes .

Pumpkinpatch- I would say NO do not try salt dips on a stressed fish with ich. Be patient. The ich parasites will fall off within a few days and he will feel much better. You are doing fine with the salt. Hang in there...both.

thanks Trinket. I was just reading an old post where daryl was recommending salt dips to someone else. I know what you're saying though, my fish are stressed enough. As am I...

I know my tank isn't cycled, found out the hard way!

I'm waiting now for the water to reach the same temp as my 55 gal. I put 16 teaspoons of aq salt with my prime in my QT tank(16 gal). Did readings on both tanks (haven't done WC on 55 gal yet).

QT TANK
Ph 7.4
NitrAte. 2.5
NitrIte. .1
Ammonia. .25

55gal
Ph. 7.4
NitrAte. 2.5
NitrIte. .2
Ammonia. 1.0
Going to do 30 percent WC and salt treatment on 55gal later tonight.
I will post later results
Thanks again Imogen

Pumpkin- no worries, we r all here 4 the same reason

Hey guys!
Gator is now in his QT w/ 3 doses of salt and temp at 76. He seems to be doing ok swimming around a little more than before, he's still covered w/ ick and still sad looking.
I plan on doing a 20 percent WC tomorrow and was woundering how much salt do I need to replace? Its a 16 gal tank. Could someone help me out w/ the math? Thanks!

I wouldn't suggest do a 20% w/c, I'd go for a 50% change daily. Its easier to calculate and its much better for the fish in a QT situation like this. Trust me.

So...16 gallon tank at 0.3% salt = 48 teaspoons/16 tablespoons

So a 50% water change means you must replace 8 tablespoons of dissolved saltwith the new water

By the way, do you have a bubbler going in the QT? Salt and sick fish need more oxygen.

Since you mentioned it, Gator now has a bubbler! These fish will drain your pocket won't it lol! My boyfriend says I spend more time w/ them than w/ him. Lol
Thanks for all the advice. I will keep every1 posted on Gartor's recovery. Cross.ur fingers and hope these tanks cycle fast!

Sounds like Gator's on his way to getting better. Just FYI, my oranda Twix is already looking a lot better, spots are gone and hopefully no more will show up. I had moved him to a separate salted tub with fresh clean water, so that probably had a lot to do with it. I'm gonna do the same for the others and see if my theory is right.

So Gator has been in His QT for a few days now. I have done 50 percent water changesn same temp, prime, right salt doses and the ick seems to be getting better.

But now another ? For the experts.

Gator seems lifeless. He will hang out at the top, slowly sink to the bottom, swim up a litte, get caught in the filter currant float around the get caught up in the air bubbles and tumble around for a while and do it all over again. He only eats when I hold food close to his nose

Could he be blind? His eyes look cloudy, but I was thinking this b/c he has the ick. Is my Gator boy going to get better?
Some1 plse help me figure out what's going on!

what kinda filter you have in the 16 gallon?

has he been eatting anything?

i know fish can live for a while without meal
but they will get weak i remember when i
was a kid parents took us for a family trip
for two weeks (neighbor never feed the fish)
and when i came back my fish
was still living but very skinny took about
a month for him to start gain weight back.

Shari -it sounds like the filter is too strong for the small tank with a fish this sick.. Can you turn it down so its barely turning over? I would even be tempted not to use a filter only as long as you have a bubbler going and are doing daily 50% water changes that would be okay. Just until he gets his strength back. Your aim is to reduce all stressors. A strong current is a stressor for a sick fish.

To be honest I have seldom seen such a bad case of ich Shari, and this fish may not make it. Prepare yourself for that. Know that you are doing your best with the salt and the daily water changes. This is the very best you can do for him. Offer him some different foods to eat. Sick fishes appetite changes. He may want shrimp/krill/peas-try different things. He may still beat this, I really really hope so.

trinket,

i would like to first thank you for all ur help. Gator was looking so much better, 95% of the ick is gone. However i dont think he is going to make it another 12 hrs. I feel so sad for my little warrior. I have done another 50% WC with no salt, turned off the filter, and moved the bubbler towards the side of the tank. I've tried to feed him brime and shrimp, and he wasnt intrested. Im going to leave him and see if the 50% WC helps.
This site is really dedicated to helping out other fish keepers, and i appericate that so much. Thanks for all that have been pulling for his recoverory, please keep ur fingers crossed a little longer, and see if gator pulls through this mess.

I hope Gator will pull through... if by chance he doesn't, at least you did your very best.

Normally the 0.3% salt should be kept in the water for 6 days after you see the last ich spot on the fish. The ich parasites fall off and
hatch out juveniles you see and that life cycle is disrupted with the salt attack. It is also possible to do every other day at 0.3% salt and keep the in between days at 0.2%.

How is he doing? Is he very weak, is he eating ?

shari lynn, we are all pulling for Gator. Hopefully he will get his strength back soon. Have you tried peas? They are one of their favorite foods, almost a dessert for goldies! Just be sure to get the skin off and mush them up for him.

Good luck hon, to you and Gator both. You're a good fish mom and you're doing everything possible to help him get better.

hey again fellow goldie lovers,

this thread can be moved now, Gator has pasted. He gave good fight.
I tried feeding all kinds of things, peas, brime, shrimp, oranges, bloodworms, he just wasnt inrested.

I felt bad for him last night however, he was lay on his side, on the bottom, still breathing, not moving much, and my boyfriend kept telling me to flush him, he was dieing. I just couldnt flush him, i still had my fingers crossed. But i was woundering if there would have been another way to help the "death process" go easier for him. I knew flushing him, he'd would have suffered even worse with all the toxions and the pressure of the toliet. I did read a post about clove oil, but i didnt know where to get that. any suggestions?
thanks again for the rescue help, we did all we could
Shari

I'm very sorry to hear that Shari
Rest now Gator

I'm so sorry that you lost Gator.
I have been following your thread hoping he would make it. You both fought a hard fight.
Poor Gator... little guy. You did all that you could for him.
I hope you feel better soon.

Debbie

shari lynn I am so sorry about Gator. You did your best for him and he fought a good fight. Sometimes things are just out of our control.

Hope you feel better soon, hon. This doesn't seem to be a good week for fish on the forum. I had to euthanize one of my platies, and several other members have lost fish this week.

Gator was a beautiful moor.

Sorry about your loss... Gator will always live on in your memories.

hey guys thanks alot for eveything, i still have my other babies to take care off, all are healthy and doing great!

hey pumpkin im grom VA where in VA r u?