Hello -

I was reading this post hoping that it would explain why my adult Oranda, Chubby, is hiding out in his corner so much this morning. He's not really bottom sitting, just lethargic. Which is why I'm drawing the conclusion that he might have flukes. I always keep a 0.1% salt mixture in the tank as it is one month old and is cycling at this time.

20 gallon tank with a Penguin Biowheel 150 - running with 2 filters, filters use Black Diamond Premium Activated Carbon. Chubby is the only fish in the tank, he is about 3 inches long in the body only. I change the water according to the parameters of my current cycle. Could be every day, or every other day...depends. Usually 20% wc. I'm using Cycle, Top Fin water conditioner, and salt. Thursday we fasted, Friday we ate peas, and today I fed Pro Gold. No unusual findings, marks or anything.

Ammonia - .25
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 5
ph - 8.2
Water temp - 68

Last night, I put my baby Oranda in the tank (I really feel I should have waited for the 20 g to complete it's cycle, which is why I removed him in the middle of the night when I saw he was having problems), they got along well. Like I said, I removed the baby. Could Chubby be lonely right now? Is he punishing me for taking his friend away? I think he might have flukes...I added another 0.1% of salt to the tank which brings me to 0.2%. I'll add another 0.1% in 12 hours?

Seeking opinions on if the fluke theory makes sense. If it is flukes, does this mean my other fishie might have them now too? Or perhaps, the baby gave the flukes to Chubby? I've had the baby for 2 months now and he's always been healthy and happy. Now that the baby is back in his old tank, he's back to normal.

Thanks!

At 1:40 pm PST, I did another test.

Nitrates - 10
Ammonia - .25
Nitrites - 0
ph - 8.2
temp 68 degrees

Someone please read my post and help...Chubby is still sitting in his corner and now he's on the gravel. He responded only slightly to a half of a pea.

Just a few things to keep in mind:
Your tank is still cycling which will often make a fish uncomfortable - especially when there is an ammonia presence in conjunction with a high PH. I would try to keep ammonia as close to zero as absolutely possible considering this fact.
Your fish may also have flukes in which case you could run a course of Prazi just to be sure - this med does not hurt the cycle. The trouble with trying to raise salt at the same time as cycling, is that the bio-bugs will be slightly affected and it will hold up the growth of your filter. I'd be tempted to allow the salt to reduce with your regular w/changes and go with Prazi instead.
The least likely reason for your fishes behaviour is that he 'misses' the other fish - it was only there for a couple of hours.

PS I tried unsuccessfully to merge your two topics - you have two threads about the same subject and a third tagged onto someone elses thread This will become super-confusing. Can you restrict yourself to one thread per topic next time? Thanks.

Hello -

I was reading this post hoping that it would explain why my adult Oranda, Chubby, is hiding out in his corner so much this morning. He's not really bottom sitting, just lethargic. Which is why I'm drawing the conclusion that he might have flukes. I always keep a 0.1% salt mixture in the tank as it is one month old and is cycling at this time.

20 gallon tank with a Penguin Biowheel 150 - running with 2 filters, filters use Black Diamond Premium Activated Carbon. Chubby is the only fish in the tank, he is about 3 inches long in the body only. I change the water according to the parameters of my current cycle. Could be every day, or every other day...depends. Usually 20% wc. I'm using Cycle, Top Fin water conditioner, and salt. Thursday we fasted, Friday we ate peas, and today I fed Pro Gold. No unusual findings, marks or anything.

Ammonia - .25
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 10
ph - 8.2
Water temp - 68

Last night, I put my baby Oranda in the tank (I really feel I should have waited for the 20 g to complete it's cycle, which is why I removed him in the middle of the night when I saw he was having problems), they got along well. Like I said, I removed the baby. Could Chubby be lonely right now? Is he punishing me for taking his friend away? I think he might have flukes...I added another 0.1% of salt to the tank which brings me to 0.2%. I'll add another 0.1% in 12 hours?

Seeking opinions on if the fluke theory makes sense. If it is flukes, does this mean my other fishie might have them now too? Or perhaps, the baby gave the flukes to Chubby? I've had the baby for 2 months now.

Thanks!

For the last hour now, he has been bottom sitting.

Thank you. I wasn't getting any response from the first post that was attached to the other thread. Then, as the day wore on and Chubby didn't respond to the salt as I had hoped, I decided to try another post ina more viable section. Then, I saw that the section might not have been the best one for my emarging concerna nd I posted in 911. Sorry for the confusion.

So I should do a water change right now? I'll change out 50%, should this be enough?

Hello luvbender and sorry to hear that your fish isn't well. I'm sure a mod or helper will be on here soon and see your post and give you some advice.

The only thing that I wanted to ask you about is using salt in a cycling tank. I could be incorrect here, and I'm sure that they will let you know, but I'm under the impression that it isn't a good idea to use salt in a tank with ANY ammonia readings at all.

Personally, what I would do until someone more knowledgeable gets your post is to do a large water change...75% at least...and make sure its temp and PH matched. That will be a big help as many problems are water quality related.

Good luck!

Hi luvbender, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that your fish has flukes just because it displays signs of lethargy, this is a sign of stress that could be caused, most likely from your description of your tank that there is still ammonia present in your tank. Does your fish flash/yawn excessively/spit out food on a regular basis? These are more concrete displays that indicate fluke.. I wouldn't anthropomorphise your fish saying 'it's punishing you' or 'it's lonely' it is more likely that your fish is stressed due to being in an uncycled tank, being exposed to even lowish levels of ammonia and nitrites over a long period of time is doing your fish a fair amount of damage. I would suggest not to put another fish in there until your tank has cycled properly, if you can avoid it there is no need to expose the second fish to this type of low level stress as well, plus it will knock your cycle about if it hasn't been well established.

OK, so I might have jumped to conclusions about the flukes...I was reading another post about a bottom sitter. Since reading about the salt with my ammonia levels, I've removed about 70% of the water in the course of two water changes The first 50% and the second (about an hour later) of 20%. He is still camping out on the bottom. He is not gasping and is sitting upright, once in a while he comes out to check things out. One thought did occur to me, I've found it very charming that he is so friendly and likes to be touched a lot. I am a smoker. Could nicotine from my fingers have gotten in to his system?

So true about moving the other fish so soon. I've been home from work all week, sick, and just had too much time on my hands. I thought it was kewl to see them in the tank together, but like I said in another post, Booger started acting herky-jerky last night and that is what caused me to remove him.

Just an observation, whenever I did the water changes Chubby hung out at the top of the tank for a few minutes. Could this mean he needs more fresh water?

Moby and Florence always hang at the top of the tank when I put the new water in. I think they like to play in the "waterfall".

I don't know about the transferral of nicotine, but its always a good idea to wash your hands thoroughly before and after any contact with the fish or water, just to be on the safe side, IMO.

Is he acting any perkier since the wc?

No, no change in his behavior at all. I did feed him, just a few flakes. He came out for the festivities, but missed most of what he aimed for. Usually he would be foraging the ground for the missed food, but he went back in to hiding. He did get a bite or two.

I would take Mads advice about getting the ammonia down to 0 and keeping it there, even if it means daily wcs. Getting a tank cycled makes you very familiar with buckets and syphons! I saw in your post that you are showing nitrates, which is a good thing, but the ammonia has to get to 0.

I knew it...one of my questions on cycling the tank brought back an answer that indicated "some" ammonia, preferably .25, needed to be in the tank in order to get the nitrates working. I am proud to say the nitrites have always been at 0.

Chubby just came out for a brief cruise but is now back in his cave. My last wc was about an hour ago, I wonder if it's too soon to do a test?

It's 5:15 pm PST, and I just tested my water.

Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 5
ph - 8
Ammonia - So hard to tell, I even had my father come in and look at the tube for me. We can't decide if it's 0 or .25, so that must mean it's somewhere in between.

Chubby has been more active in the last 20 minutes than he has all day. Maybe he's coming around.

I'm telling you, when you ain't got nothing better to do than hang out on the goldfish forum, weird things can start eating at your brain. I need to go concentrate on getting myself better, I'm way too active to be this sick for this long.

Click to view attachment

IMO, any ammonia reading in your tank is not good, I have read responses to your other threads there has been mention that some ammonia is okay if your fish are healthy (something that I personally don't agree on, but each to their own), from what you are describing your fish is not healthy, and lets be honest, no fish will remain ~healthy~ in a tank that has registerable levels of ammonia in it for any extended period of time. All tanks will have ammonia in them, -otherwise how to the BBs keep growing, right? But the key is to get them unregisterable, ie at "0" or less than 0.25 ppm. Yes, this means the cycle is agonisingly slow, but if you don't want to damage your fish this is necessary, -as you can see your fish is starting to get sick, I don't see this as a coincidence since you are cycling your tank with fish in.

It's good that you sound like you're reducing the ammonia levels, but if you have any doubt, another waterchange will not hurt. -Keep testing for ammonia every day and at the first sign that there is any there, do another WC.

As for your fish hanging at the top of your tank during WCs, -What is the pH of the water out of your tap, -is it the same temp as the water in your tank? -do you put water straight from your tap into your tank? There could be a couple of reasons teh Ph or Temp mightn't match, or the water out of your tap has little to no dissolved oxygen in it when it comes straight from the tap, do your fish gulp like they're trying to swallow air when you do water changes?

BTW just merged your two topics.

Great advice Mads.
By the way...who are dragon ladies 1, 2 and 3 I know..better not ask

Hello Mads,

I agree with you...I didn't want any ammonia readings in my tank either, but Chubby seemed to be handling it OK. Then yesterday he went in to a tailspin. Your advice worked. I have my ammonia very close to 0. I even had my father look at the colors for me to see what he thought (I needed a fresh pair of eyes to make sure I wasn't just seeing what I wanted to see) we both felt it was not quite yellow, but not quite lime either.

When I do water changes, I run the bathtub for a long time. I fill my bucket, then add water conditioner. I put the water in over the Ornament so as not to disturb the rocks or my fish, I also feel this keeps water moving inside the ornament which also has an airstone in it. I live in the San Bernardino valley, right below Lake Arrowhead and Big Bear. We are on their reservoirs, our ph is 7.4 out of the tap. When I go to the store today, I'm going to look in to the kh and gh testers.

CHUBBY WAS SHAKIN' A TAILFEATHER THIS MORNING!! WOOO HOOOOOO...

Thanks for dealing with my conclusion jumping, too much time on my hands, impatient as all heck self. I need to get back to work!

Chubby said to tell you hi!

Oh yeah, as far as the water changes go, no, they don't gulp air. They both think they're super fish and try to swim in the stream as it's coming in, especially Booger. The smaller they are the mightier they become. Otherwise they just hang out wherever. Yesterday was the first time I noticed Chubby hanging at the top and I think it might have been to get close to the fresh water? This morning he didn't do it.

Oh he is a happy baby right now...darn these goldfish. They steal your heart.

They certainly do Glad things are better for you all.

You called????

Hey hun, I'm glad to hear your fish is looking better! It's always better and cheaper to try rectifying a fish's "illness" by trying a water change or two before going to the drug cabinet, 9 times out of ten it's got to do with water quality issues Just wondering, you mentioned that the pH from your tap is 7.4 and the pH in your tank hovers around 8-8.2... there's something in your tank that's raising the pH, was wondering what you've got in there? Shells, black gravel? white rock?

Here is a picture of my tank...hope this helps. The gravel I bought at my pet store, there are maybe 4 white rocks in there, I took most out because I don't like the white rock. The black rock is more of a dark gray, and there are maroon colored rocks in there too. All natural, nothing was painted - I don't think any of its painted. 2 live plants and my ornament.

Once my tank is cycled, I think I'd like to go for more of a barebottom look. I'd like to find some little glass dishes for the plants and maybe remove the ornament all together.

Anyways, here is that pic.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/t...er/100_0728.jpg

I just went and verified the tap reading at 7.4. I have some stuff to bring the ph down but have never used it. It's by API and is called pH Down.

Nice tank!

Hmmn, I can't see anything that stands out, but there could be some of the rocks that are affecting your pH in the gravel that you're using, I wouldn't start using pH down, if there's something in your tank that's continually causing the pH to creep up then you'll be using a lot of the stuff, it's better to remove the cause rather than to add more chemicals.

Thank you!

I just removed the ornament. It was hollow and had some edges on it that I didn't care for, I'd hate for Chubby to scrape himself. Now my tank looks bare but, oh well. I'd like to remove some of the gravel too, but I'll wait awhile for that. Chubby seems to be spending an unusual amount of time at the top. I don't know if he's gasping for air or looking for more Hikari pellets, I didn't know they floated so he ate a meal at the top this morning. He looks fine and isn't up there all the time.

Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 10
ph - 8.0

I did a 75% wc this morning. I woke up to .25 ammonia and 40 Nitrates. I used 2 gallons of bottled water I had in the garage, hoping some filtered water would bring down the ph a little. What else could be causing the ph to rise? Should I remove the white rocks?

At this stage I think it is unwise to mess around with the PH. Gfish do not respond to a drop very comfortably and frankly the PH is not so high as to be problematic - providing you keep the ammonia as close to zero as you can.
It may be the case that the rise from tap to tank is not caused by any of the decor at all but instead, a high level of disolved carbonic acid in the main water source - this is not uncommon. Once the CO2 dissipates, the PH rises to it's true value.
Try this experiment: Draw a jug of tap water and test the PH immediately. Leave the rest of the jug sitting for 24 hrs then test again. If the PH has risen carbonic acid is your answer.

I will try that, thanks!