Not really where I would choose to put my first post but it has to be. Apologies in advance for the length!
I really should have looked for this kind of sight before getting my fish but I didn't.
About 3weeks ago I bought my first ever tank. An Elite 21 package. Followed the instructions that came with it. Rinsed the gravel etc, filled with dechlorinated(Nutrafin Aqua plus) water, waited 5/6 days then went and got 2 fish.
Not 100% sure what they are as the were both in a tank labelled Oranda, but they are not. One, 'Sir Fishington' is I believe a Telescope(mainly black but speckled with 'silver' and orange), the other, 'Gordan' I'm not sure about, looks a bit like a comet but its tail fin is split(its orange with the tips of its fins in black). Both no more the 4cm in length.
The tank size is 21 liters I think around 6 US Gallons(too much fish for the tank? The shop guy said it would be ok). I've been doing 10% water changes daily as the instuctions said. Not sure what the filter is other than 'Elite Stingray', sorry can't find the info.
Measurements from my test strip:
PH-6.5
KH-50
GH-60
NitrIte- slightly more colour on the strip than 0 but nowhere near the next figure
NitrAte-slightly more colour on the strip than 0 but nowhere near the next figure
Ammonia- 3ppm
After visiting this site I now know that I should do a 50%water change due to the high ammonia level, shall do first thing in the morning.

For the first week the fish seemed very happy, but recently they are acting very different.Fishington spends a lot of time swimming near the surface, only going down to the floor occasionally, and to feed(TetraFin flakes, occasional small bit of a pea). His fins do seem a bit clamped. Would this be due to the Ammonia levels?

Gordan is now spending the vast majority of his time hiding in the 'cave' I pressume asleep, if not, very very still. Still has a good appetite though(took food from my hand just now) When I can see him and he does swim it gets very erratic, and he scratches his head on objects, fins clamped. Upon his head (like eyebrows) are little(couple of mm) black 'worm' things. Seems to be two on 1 side 1 on the other. And one of the gills has a large black spot on it(larger than any of the photos of black spot I can find).Help?

Havn't yet masterd the art of photographing them, but I shall keep trying if that will help.

Help and advice would be very much appreciated. I may have only had them for a short time but I have become quite attatched, and I really don't want them to be suffering!!

Yes you are overstocked, a fancy goldfish needs 10+ gallons each. You should change the water now, as there is no telling if it could shoot higher in the night.

I think they may be flukes but I don't know...

Hi and
At least you're here now, and can get some good advice.

Yes, 2 fancy goldfish in a 6 gallon tank is too many. But the good news is they are very small right now so the effects of overcrowding won't be too bad just yet. I'd suggest you start saving for a 20 gallon tank right away though (bummer after just buying a new tank I know, but at least you'll have an extra, believe me, they come in handy).

You're quite right about the water change, do that for sure. What is happening is that your tank is beginning to cycle and an ammonia spike is the first stage (check out the cycing section on koko's website for all the info on that). As for your fish's symptoms, I'm going to hold off on advising you on that as the modirators have more experience than me with that. Good luck!

Hey there and welcome to Koko's!I'm sorry to say that Chrissy Bee is correct, your tank is too small for your goldfish, you will need around 39 litres for one double-tailed goldy and about 78 litres for a single tailed variety.I would not start by suggesting that you have flukes. The symptoms they are displaying (hiding, lethargy/hanging near the surface etc) are much more likely being caused by the level of ammonia in your water. They are currently under extreme stress due to the water condition. 3 ppm is very high, I would suggest that you start with an 80% waterchange, the stress of a large waterchange is much less than the amount of stress they are enduring by being left in such toxic water.

-Aftger your 80% change, wait for 1/2 a day and check the ammonia again, if the levels are still high do another 80% change, then after that keep doing 50% water changes every day until you see the cycle starting to occur (nitrite and nitrates start to rise and ammonia levels decrease, I will not give you a lecture on cycling your tank as there is a very good page on it on koko's already.One thing I will say is that the reason why people suggest what seems like an excessively large amount of water to a newbie for each goldy is that any smaller amounts of water and the levels of ammonia and other toxins are just too hard to control. I'm sorry to be a killjoy, but if you are really committed to keeping you pets, it is going to be a very bumpy road for you with your 21 litre tank and two fish. -If you don't want such a labour intensive start to your hobby, I suggest either invest in a larger tank, or return one of your fish and start saving for a larger tank at a later date. There is a lot of misconception in the fishkeeping world, you cannot just translate the knowledge of keeping tropicals to keeping goldfish, and a majority of people who work at aquariums have little to no knowledge of keeping goldfish properly, having their expertise in keeping trops/marine, these people often consider goldfish as an easy 'starter' fish, or disposable pets I'm sad to say. They also don't take into consideration the health of the fish, -if a newbie has too many fish in a small tank before the nitrogen cycle kicks in, of course the fish are going to get sick and die, but if they're lucky the newbie will come back to the shop desperate for a remedy ($$) and when that doesn't work and poor Dorothy carks it the newbie comes back for Dorothy#2 ($$), then once they've had it they've either spent a whole heap of money for a hobby that they give up in disgust, or they finally work out that they DO need a larger tank with all the trimmings, and they come back and buy another tank anyway ($$). Giving out good advice to newbies is not always the most lucrative way of selling pets Sorry, I'll get off my high-horse now... uhm where was I? Oh yes, water changes, I'd be surprised if your little ones do not start to pick up a bit after a few big waterchanges.

-Do not go and get a medication willy nilly from your pet shop and dump it in your tank, like so many newbies seem to think is the right thing to do. Adding medications (these are TOXIC, they are toxic to kill parasites/bacteria that cause illness in your goldfish) to a tank as small as yours without perfect water (that's a fully cycled tank) will stress your fish out even more than they are now, this could precipitate their demise, and will certainly not help them. If your fish continue to act stressed after your water condition is perfect, then we can reconsider their behaviour and work out if they need medicating.Also, if you haven't already done so, go to the section of the nitrogen cycle/cycling your tank on the board/site, this will help you greatly to understand what filtration is about, and why it is important for your tank.Good luck, and keep us up to date with what's going on in your tank.

Yes, your ammonia levels are high. The saving grace a bit is that the low pH means only a smaller amount of it is actually in toxic form, but its still high. You should do a significant water change. At least 50%, probably twice during the day, or something like 75% or more at least once.

Try to make sure the tap water you use is reasonably close in temperature to your tank water, and of course make sure its dechlorinated. Going forward, you may want to pick up some AmQuel+ water conditioner (and its companion product NovAqua+), or else some Prime. They help make this initial 'cycling' process much less toxic for the fish, and then keep good conditions over the longer haul with continued modest usage.


About that low pH. Goldies tend to prefer pHs from 7.0 to upper 7s, and, perhaps more importantly, so do the bacteria that allow your tank to cycle. What is the pH of your tap? If its higher, then you will be doing them a double-favor with some water changes, as your water may have developed some pH issues since no changes were done.


So, to recap:
- absolutely do substantial water changes to get ammonia down
- if your tap water has a higher pH, a raise in pH will be good for them too, although if its *much* higher, you may want to do it at a modest pace so they can adjust to it
- consider investing in the water conditioners above to help
- and, yes, you definitely need a bigger tank (20 US gallons or more) for these fish, being in too small of an area has helped the ammonia rise as quickly as it has, but they'll be okay with more work on your part until you can get one of those

Good catch on the pH. Also of concern is the kH - the buffer that will keep that pH stable. At 50kH and 60gH, you are very low in buffer. When you do get a strong nitrogen cycle going, your pH is going to want to drop even more. The chemical reactions in the cycle will cause the water to become more acidic - and if you do not have enough kH or buffer to keep it steady, it can drop precipitously - injuring or killing the fish.

The good think - as you raise your pH, you will most likely be raising your kH. You want to aim at about 100ppm kH and gH. This is a good stable level for goldies.

WElcome to Koko's

Hi, thanks for the replys.

With big water changesm I can keep my Ammonia down to about 1ppm, but there no change in Nitrates or Nitrites.
The fish do seem happier (not that i'm claiming to be a great judge)
The PH of my tap is the same, is there something I could get to help with this?

With regards to a tank,I have been offered a 54litre (rather cheaply) that I can have by the end of next week, whilst not ideal it will be better for now? as getting a larger one is going to take some planning and saving.
Also had my eye on a(cheap) Fluval 105 external filter this be a good thing? I know that there are many useful links, especially here on filters and the likes, which I plan to read repeatedly, but it's always nice to get things checked.

Also if the above tank/filter is a good idea then some advice on how to go about setting up the new tank properly and transfering my fish properly(unlike my first efforts) would be very much appreciated(probably needs to be a differnt part of the forum now though).

I wouldn't really worry about transferring over your fish, since you're going from an uncycled tank to an uncycled tank. The bigger space is more important right now.

You want to keep your ammonia closer to 0-.25, so be sure to do as many water changes as it takes for now. Your fishies will get damaged quite quickly if you let them stay at that level of ammonia.

How about getting a cheap rubbermaid tub at wallyworld in the meantime? You can get a 45g. tub for so much cheaper than a glass tank, and you won't have to change the water as often...once a day as opposed to several times per day, during cycling.