Ammonia: Between 0 and .25
Nitrate and Nitrite= 0
Ph Between 6.6-6.8
Tank 29g running for about 4months
2 fish, Hammy, Demekin, about 3.5 inches, Jaws, Fantail, about 4.5"
Use Prime
No new fish or anything new
Feed different things such as veggis, Pro-Gold, gel food, but both fish have been on Medi-Gold since Tuesday, twice a day
2 Filters equaling 300gph Whisper 10-30 and Aqua-Tech 20-40
Wc once a day depending on ammt. of ammonia in tank,usually about 50-60%
Tank Temp= about 75 degrees


I started both fish on Medi-Gold Tuesday as Jaws has suspected finrot. Today, I have noticed that Hammy has been bottom sitting a lot behind the plant. She has eaten good, but then goes right back to bottom sitting. Her scales look fine, but when I got back from the store just now, I noticed that she is kind of gasping. She looks fine otherwise, no pineconing, fins look okay.
Hammy NEVER bottom sits, so I know something is wrong. She is not even attempting to swim, just sits there, even when Jaws somes up to her. He, too, has been sitting with her alot today, but he seems to be doing it out of sympathy, as he will swim around some, too. Any ideas on this???

Hey Nickie!

You know I don't know anymore than you do about fish diseases, but I was wondering about your ammonia. You are doing daily wcs and still have ammonia readings? I wonder why that would be in a cycled tank?

It's not cycled. I just found out that the reason my tank has not cycled is because my KH/GH is too low.

Jeez Nickie, enough problems already! Don't you know that you already have enough to deal with?

Seriously - I hope you find out what's wrong with him soon. Keep your chin up. You know you're at the best place for help!

Debbie

Thanks, Deb!!! Right now, she is doing the same thing, just lieing behind the plant and sitting on the bottom.

She is now tilting head down. I don't think she will make it thru the night the way she looks right now.

Nothing could of gone wrong to happen that fast sweetie. I've never liked your PH being low, but they say as long as the fish are used to it, it's okay. So can prolly rule that out. You can try another WC until a mod comes along and asks better qualifying questions than us newbies can muster.

It's gonna be okay. Hang in there sweetie!! I was worried to death about Lola a few days ago with what I thought/think is Septicemia, and she is doing better today.

I know, but I swear, she was fine yesterday! Swimming and active and everything. The bottom-sitting just started today and has got progressively worse. I don't know what is wrong with her. When I fed them their afternoon meal, she ate good, but then went right back to bottom sitting behind her plant...

Okay, I know I am basically talking to myself here, but I have to do something....
Hammy just tried to swim and when she did, she was swimming very fast yet unbalanced, and actually bumped into the side of the tank, "fell" on to her side, and now she is bottom sitting once more behind the plant and gasping very fast... My poor girl...

Your poor girl. I would raise the PH, but that's just my personal opinion. The only time I've seen mine swim eradically and bottom sit in that fashion is becuz of a PH crash. I know a mod is going to say either that, or parasites. I can't think of anything else. Do your fish go to sleep at a certain time of the day? Is their sleep pattern disturbed at all perhaps? I'm just trying to help you think.

Did you PM a mod yet?

Is she constipated, maybe?

Just wanted to send recovery vibes to Hammy. Good luck, Nickie. I'm sure you'll beat this!

Nope, have not PMed anyone. It could possibly be the ph, but then again, the ph has been this low since I got them.




I think you have hit it on at least one problem. I noticed that she was trying to poop and it took a long time for her to do it, I mean a LONGGGGG time, all this time that I was writing before on this thread, she was trying to poo the same poo, for over an hour! Now that she has done it, she is swimming around a little more, BUT, what worries me is that she has been this way off an on all day, not just since I posted this.



Thanks Leslie!!! I hope Fisher is still improving!!!!

Nickie how is Hammy today? I think maybe its time to pm someone. Poor little girl.

Well, believe it or not, I think we DO have another "mod" on our hands! LOL! Lola seems to have hit the problem dead on with the constipation! After Hammy did her poop last night, she got loads better and started swimming around more! This morning, she is swimming around right now, she ate good, and seems to be doing better!!!! I checked on her thru out the night and she is doing good right now. I am just going to keep an eye on her today and make sure she doesn't start bottom sitting again.
I think I may have overfed them yesterday, but as the divider is out now, I want to make sure Jaws doesn't eat all the food and Hammy not get enough. I guess she can hold her own with Jaws, though, as she sure got enough yesterday. I didn't feed them as much this morning! That was my stupidity. However, with Hammy being a telescope-type fish, I was scared that she wouldn't get enough food as Jaws is like a vacume when it comes to feeding times.
Thanks to you, Deb, and Lola for helping me out! I will keep you all posted on this!!!
She really had me scared last night and I seriously thought she was dieing. Thanks so much, guys!!! I love ya!!!

Nickie! What wonderful news!! I've been so worried about her - AND you!!
Good idea to keep an eye on her just the same. Boy these fish sometimes.. they really like to see us worry, don't they??

So long as things turn out well - that's all that's important!
Keep us posted!!

Debbie

I will, thanks again, Deb!!!

That's great news Nickie!

Yes, thanks JOH! She is still acting normally. No bottom sitting. I hope whatever it was has passed and she doesn't start doing it again.

Haha yeah literally....

Nickie, I was just thinking. Might it be a good idea to fast her for a day or so - and then give her some peas? That would clean her out, and you may not have to worry about it happening again too soon.


I would also like to add that I am very surpised that in the 15 hours from when you started this thread, until you told us that (Thank God) Hammy was fine, there was no input from any Mod or Helper. Thankfully this turned out to be nothing serious. But how dreadful things could have been if it had.

Debbie

Well, it looks like she is not out of the woods yet. She has started bottom sitting AGAIN! She sits literally on the bottom of the tank and then tilts with her head down. She has stopped swimming around again, too. I can't fast her because she is on medicated food right now and it may cause a resistance to it, right? Could she be egg bound? Her right side is slightly larger than her left. I don't know what to do! I am doing a BIG wc right now...

Oh - I didn't know she was on medicated food. Yes - you don't want to stop feeding that. How long have they been on it? You were feeding them gel food before, right? Could it be the difference in the food that is causing her to be constipated - I wonder? Poor thing.

I don't know about eggs - other than the ones in my fridge. Let's hope a mod or helper comes on soon and can sort this out for you!! I don't think there are any on at the moment.

Well, I don't want to fill your thread with my speculations. It'll be too much for the mods/helpers to sort through.
But keep us posted!

Debbie

I also need to add that she is now clamping her dorsal fin, too. Thanks, again, Deb. Do you think I need to start a new thread?

Nickie, maybe u should check the color of her gills if she's having trouble breathing. Is the water well oxygenated? It could never hurt to try a little salt, maybe u could try that. I really hope Hammy gets better!

Her gills look okay as far as I can see. She isn't gasping right now, but she is still bottom-sitting and her head is tilited down and her dorsal is staying clamped most of the time. Shamu, do you have any experience with egg-impaction? Could that be it?

egg impaction? Im not sure, at one time one of my fish was bottom sitting and was fat and she had bubbles in her poop so Im not sure if it was egg impaction or not, she was pretty young still, ya never know. Is she looking bloated at all? Is there bubbles in her poop? Could it b sbd possibly? Do u have any aquarium salt? That sometimes makes them feel slightly better.

I don't see any bubbles in her poo. She seems to have normal poo. I am not sure what is wrong. I have aquarium salt, but don't to use it unless I need to.

maybe u should try it. Even if its not parasitic or anything, salt will not harm them, its not like meds. Even if u raise it just to 0.1 and then see if helps at all, it couldnt hurt to try.

If it was egg impaction they usually have bubbles in their poop I think, is she bloated at all?

Slightly on her right side, but not much; I mean, you really have to look to see the difference. I guess I will try the salt.

Nickie, I'm sorry Hammy is still not feeling well. Maybe with it being the weekend, the mods are out with family, but I'm sure someone will come along by tonight and offer some help. Just feed lightly until you figure this thing out. The clamped dorsal usually means "I'm not feeling well at all".

Does she move around when you come to the tank, or stay where she is?

Im not really sure what egg impaction looks like except that they usually get bloated. I think the salt will b a good idea, even if it doesnt help its not gonna harm them, hopefully it will help though

I just found this page, try finding her syptoms on here maybe


http://www.ponddoc.com/Store/FishHealthPro...s/Diagnosis.htm

Thanks to both of you! When I come up to the tank, sometimes, she will swim up to me, but most of the time, she just sits behind her plant and ignores me. What is so wierd is that even Jaws will come up to her an nudge her and she hardly moves at all.

according to that page I found it would seem more like parasites, if it is then the salt should help a little, goodluck Nickie I really hope Hammy makes a full recovery

Okay, I am totally confused here!!! Now, she is swimming around again. I turned on their light to be able to see her scales better, and her gills, which both look good, and she started swimming when the light came on and has been swimming since! Has anyone ever heard of a fish that will bottom sit one minute with her dorsal clamped, and then, after about 20-30 mins, start swimming around again? Her dorsal is still a bit clamped, though right now. This is so weird! I know it sounds like I am crazy, but I swear, anyone who would see her bottom sitting with her head down, her back end tilted up, and not moving with her dorsal clamped would think the same way I am, that she is very sick. She is not sleeping, either. I have seen her sleep and she usually sleeps about midway in the tank and her dorsal is not clamped.

Hello Nickie - I was just wondering if you'd ever treated for flukes? ie. when you got the fish during QT.
It is a little difficult to make a definitive diagnosis because there are a few factors which could come into play here.

First, your PH is a problem and, as you know, fish do not like such acidic conditions. What's happening with the c/coral? Has it arrived yet?
There is also the issue that you've been struggling with low-level ammonia from time to time as you've had problems with the cycle. These factors can make a fish clamp and skulk on the bottom. You also mention a trailing poop which took an age to be finished, so that indicates a little constipation, too.
A fluke infestation will also cause bottom-sitting, surface-hanging and general lethargy, too. A fish with flukes is capable of swimming around normally from time to time as opposed to fish with a bacterial infection which more commonly will be grounded.
Salt will perk up a fish who feels under the weather due to stress and water issues but it won't really deal with flukes. You could perhaps try running Prazi as a shotgun medication but I do hesitate to advise it given the water issues. Having said that, it is gentle and harmless so it wouldn't be bad - many people do it as part of their QT process anyway.
Have you been able to see the colour of the gills, exactly? You could lift her above the water (head down) and very gently try to lift the gill cover with your nail if you cannot easily see inside. I know you would be extremely careful doing this, obviously.
Post back with the findings if poss.

I tried to get a good look at her gills, but she was thrashing so much that I didn't want to hurt her. From what I could see, they look nice and red, no whiteish color or anything. I have never treated the fish for any parasite at all. As far as the coral, I have to wait until hubby gets paid again (this Friday) before ordering it as we are short on cash right now. Should I use baking soda until I canget the coral? If so, how much?

KH should be at or above 4.5 DH / 80ppm to keep pH from becoming acidic. Preferably higher.
I think 1 teaspoon of baking soda per 50 liters can raise the kH by approx 4 deg dH without a major affect on pH.
Dissolve the baking soda in tank water, then add it slowly whilst stirring to ensure even distribution. Test PH and KH after an hour. Aim to raise the PH by no more than .4 per day. As nitrate is released into the tank, the KH will be used up so it is very important to test the water frequently in order to get the right balance.
I think you should speak to Lola, who I think has actually done this herself recently; I'm sure she'll be able to give you the ins and outs.

I'll talk to TM about it, but I noticed you said as nitrate is released, it uses up the baking soda, but what if I have no nitrates? My tank is not cycled. I only have ammonia...

Well Nickie I was just getting ready to post and tell you I was so glad Hammy was better, and then she wasn't, and then she was, and then....oh, well you get the point!

At least she is just acting funny on and off, so that has to be a good sign, and she is still eating. Hopefully the salt will help some until you decide how to medicate her. Its so hard to know exactly what is wrong with a fish when you have no idea where they hurt or whether they are uncomfortable.

Good luck and I hope Hammy is better very soon!

Just keep testing the water. What you want to avoid is raising the PH too quickly or letting it drop.
Once your KH goes up you will start to develop a cycle - and when eventually nitrite is turned into nitrate the KH will get used. Hopefully you'll have coral by then. But if not, you will need to get your tank to KH 7 dh to ensure there is enough to enable the PH to hold as the cycle turns.

Okay, I PMed Lola about the baking soda, and I am going to start that tomorrow to raise my ph; however, I really think the culprit here is the medicated food. Hammy seems to be doing okay until about 30-40 mins after she eats, then she starts bottom sitting and acting all weird on me! Do you think I am feeding too much, OR that it is the medicated food itself doing this? They are on Medi-Gold right now.

Was it Hammy that was having floaty issues until you started using gel food, or was that Jaws? I forget now. The Medigold takes a long time for some of my fish to eat, and others don't seem to have an issue with it. They all love it though becuz it smells so meaty! Maybe she is feeling full afterwards....so maybe watch the amt. you give her, or if you feed twice a day, back off to once a day to see how that goes.

It was Jaws that was floaty. However, he has no problem with the Medi-Gold. I guess I will back off to once a day feedings. They are only getting about 4-5 pellets each, twice a day.

The thing is Nickie, I've never been convinced that MediGold was really called for. The pics didn't ever look definitive for F/R to me - but I do remember your saying that the light didn't show the fin clearly enough. Medigold doesn't, to the best of my knowledge, cause bottom-sitting

Here's the crux of it: The fin probs could just as likely to be a symptom of flukes, along with the bottom-sitting. So if that's the case - they will go untreated until you can get Prazi and meanwhile you may be pumping in a dose of anti-biotics that really isn't necessary at all.

Just my take on things but maybe others can comment?

In my opinion, it is not the MEdigold that is doing it, per se'.....but perhaps a combination of problems. Medigold is a pelleted food - a GREAT food that has had medication added to it - infused into the pellet. It is the same as Progold except for the medication.

When you treat with an antibiotic you MUST complete the entire regiment of treatment. I will repeat that . WHEN YOU TREAT WITH AN ANTIBIOTIC MEDICATION, YOU MUST COMPLETE THE ENTIRE REGIMENT OF TREATMENT.

Antibiotic treatments do not kill all the bad bacteria instantly. They take time. You need to get a large enough quantity of the medication into the fish to have the medicine work - hense feeding multiple small meals is usually better than one large meal - for it spreads out the meds into a more constant level in the fish's body. You must continue the medication for enough days that even the stronger bacteria that may be resisting the kill-effect of the antibiotic agent weaken and die. If you stop treating with antibiotic agents too soon, the weak bacteria will have died, but the STRONG, RESISTANT BACTERIA STILL LIVE - and will subsequently go on to reproduce - making a large population of bad bacteria that are nearly impossible to kill.

Medigold is not my choice of treatment for fin rot. It is far better for internal infections - particularly intestinal ones. Fin rot will usually respond very quickly to a bath ...... such as a 4 hour PP bath, or a whole tank treatment such as MaracynII. IT is important that you identify the problem carefully before using an antibiotic treatment, though. Every time you introduce an antibiotict treatment to your fish/tank, you are reducing the effectiveness of that treatment. In my opinion, most tanks/fish have about 3 uses for a particular medication and then you can assume that the bacteria in the system are immune. Using a mechanical sterilizer such as PP or painting the edges of the fish with HP is a treatment to which no bacteria or parasites can become resistant.

When a fish rouses up to swim and eat, then sinks to the bottom and sits, particularly if the fish is showing fin damage, I will diagnose FLUKES. Flukes can slowly overwhelm a fish - slowly making it more and more difficult for the fish to breathe as the flukes destroy the gill tissue. The fish can swim and work to do what it really wants to (EAT!) but quickly tires and sinks to the bottom to rest. Sitting on the bottom only seems to speed the flukes attacks.

I suggest that you finish the MEdigold regiment you started - completely at LEAST 10 days of full dose. Do not taper off, do not feed more, do not stop early. The "fin rot" is not a life threatening condition at this time - and can be left alone for the time being. Get yourself some PRAZI and treat for flukes. Do at least 3 rounds, done 48 hours apart. Medigold, salt and PRazi are all compatible. They can be used at the same time.

Remember - if this is flukes as we believe it to be - killing the flukes will not instantly cure the fish. The flukes destroy gill tissue. It can take months and months to replace destroyed gill tissue. It will take great care and pristine water to get Hammy back into shape.

Thanks to you both for your ideas and suggestions. However, Jaws was the one who looked like he had fin rot. I couldn't see anything wrong with Hammy's fins, but as they are dark black, I could not be sure. Also, I guess I need to read up on flukes as it seems strange to be that I have had this fish since August and she has been fine, never has had any problems, unlike Jaws, and now all the sudden, she is showing signs of flukes? I just wonder how she got them? As soon as I can scrounge some money up, I plan on getting the coral and the Prazi.

P.S. I also read somewhere that medicated food can be harsh on a GF system???

Some antibiotics, if incorrectly used, can cause problems. Particularly if over dosed or overused. Most medicated foods are very difficlut to overdose.

I was thinking about this, and I guess, if I had this fish, my treatment of choice would be:

Day 1. Dip the fish in a salt dip. Only leave the fish in as long as it can tolerate it. This will purge the fish as well as strip the slime coat and leave many adult parasites behind in the salt dip water. Place the fish in a tub with 100% fresh water. Run a filter on the tub with Zeolite. Fast the fish for this day. Fast the fish.

Day 2. Fast the fish. Move the fish from tub 1 to tub 2 - 100% fresh water. Filter with Zeolite. STerilize tub 1.

Day 3. Do a potassium permangantae bath for 4 hours. Fast the fish. Move the fish from tub 2 to tub 1 - 100% fresh water - filter with Zeolite. STerilze tub 2.

Day 4. Feed the fish lightly on green foods. Move the fish from tub 1 to tub 2 - 100% fresh water - Filter with Zeolite. STerlize tub 1.

Day 5, 6, 7 Feed the fish lightly on green foods. Move the fish each day from one tub to the other - replacing all the water each time. The filter and all should be alternately sterilized and replace. The zeolite can be recharged for the salt solution for recharging will kill any parasites and most bacteria.

You have to contend with the MEdigold, though. So, until you have completely the full round, you will need to use that instead of fasting or greens.......

Thanks Daryl....