Please forgive my long post, but I want to give as much detail as possible to anyone who can help me.



Here is my situation:

I have 7 Shubunkins, 1 Sarassa Commet, and a regular common gold fish that I recently transferred from a small tank to a 29 gallon tank. They average about 3 inches with the smallest being about 2 inches and the largest 4.

I transferred all the fish a few at a time over the course of a week, and this was with the aid of Bio-spira and some gravel from their previous established tank. The tank has a good amount of plants, and filtration is provided by an Aqua-tech 20-40 AND a Penguin 150. Up until a few days ago, I was running a long airstone in a back corner and two buried small air stones at opposing corners trickling air (via gang valves). The PH is 7.2, Amonia level 0, and the temperature averages 76-77 with a heater-less setup (I'm in Florida).



The last one transferred this past Saturday, and all of them seem happy and active, but a few nights back I noticed that their eyes seemed to be bulging slightly; it's most noticeable on the 4-incher.



I did some research and while Bacterial infection may be possible, Gas Bubble Disease seems more probable (to my uneducated mind). When I read about GBD, the saturation of tiny bubbles flowing around the tank seemed less harmless to me. I've disconnected the air pump and the Penguin 150 (the Bio wheel is sitting in a cup full of fish tank water)



Since then, the eye bulging doesn't seem any better. To my increasingly paranoid mind it seems worse.

If this is Gas Bubble Disease is there anything I can do??

As I mentioned before, the fish seem happy and active with no drop in their appetite, nor any clamping of their fins. Still, there is no denying (in my mind anyways) that the bulging eyes is a sign of trouble.



I will be purchasing some medicated food in case this is a bacterial infection.



Again, sorry for the long post. Any advice, help would be immensely appreciated. I have a very sentimental attachment to these guys as they are about the same age of my baby boy and I envisioned them being around with the family as he grows.



Thanks,

Gimpy

Do the eyes look donut shaped like this

http://www.gorge.org/fish/pang/panglying.jpg


If so its popeye and medicated food is the way to go. Also given ammount of fish you have your tank is still to small. As we work on the general rule 20 gallons water per common/comet minimum 10 gallons minimum per fancy

finally

Hi SG and welcome to Koko's

I'm sorry that you're having problems with your fish. I know how easy it is to get attached to them.
It would help the mods and helpers a great deal if you could answer all the questions in the box on top of this page. You answered many of them, but they'll need these, too:

Nitrite Level - Nitrate Level - pH level in the tank and from the tap - How often you change the water and how much - What kind of water additives or conditioners - any meds added - What do you feed them..

These are all very important to help them get an idea of what's going on with the tank, as many illnesses are a result of water quality.
Single tailed goldfish produce a lot of waste. So many in a small space makes it easier to harbor bacterias, etc. I'm not going to preach to you about overstocking, because I'm guilty of it myself. I just lost my Smokey (Shubunkin) a few days ago. Had I known how very important the proper amount of space was to them, he might still be here today.

If you don't have test kit for the other water tests, you can bring a sample of water to your local pet store (that sells fish/supplies) and they'll test it for free. Be sure to have them write the numbers down. They are quick to say the water is fine, this is high or whatever - but the people here need the exact numbers.

I wish you luck with your fish. They are little lives that are totally dependant on you for their care.


Debbie

Hi Gimpy and welcome!!

First of all no need to apologise for a long post - the longer the better as the more info we have, as FishyFish points out, the better we can help

Two immediate issues need dealing with fast. First, please put the bubble wand back. Its very important in an extremely overstocked tank like this. Gas bubble disease is indeed caused by over saturation of dissolved oxygen- but this is most commonly caused by a huge rise in water temperature combined with pressure change. The pressure change can occasionally be from a leaky pipe that is sucking air, but most often it occurs when water is pumped from a well. Gas superstauration occurs when the total pressure from gases dissolved in the water exceeds the atmospheric pressure- this is quite unlikely in an indoor tap water sourced setting.

It is seldom seen as a result of bubblers or aquarium aeration in a tank over 2 gallons in size -although occasionally it is found in tiny bowls where the bubbler is so powerful that the whole bowl is a mass of small bubbles.

You have 9 fish all of whom need 20 gallons space each, and these are in a 29 gallon tank. Really you need to either separate your fish into rubbermaid tubs, rehome some, or find them a tank at least 180 gallons in volume of water. These kind of fish are the pond fish of aquaria and do not thrive in small spaces. The accumulation of of bacteria behind the eyes is very common in overstocked tanks. To be perfectly honest the only longterm solution to the situation here is to rehome your fish in a larger volume of water. Water volume has a huge role in accomodating the aeromonas/pseudonomas bacteria that are in small numbers not dangerous. Reduce the water volume per fish and the bacterial count ratio becomes too high for the fish to be able to cope. They get sick.

First, thanks for the warm welcome.

Second, I'm an idiot. I went out and purchased a nitrite testing kit yesterday and to my surprise, the nitrite level was way up there. (I wrote it down, but my wife is mopping and won't let me leave the room to get it. ) I assumed that the level 0 amonia reading was an idication that the Bio-spira and Cycle worked successfully. Bad assumption. I'm guessing the high nitrite level wreaked havoc on the fishs' imune system and made them vulnerable to bacterial infection. I added some Am-quell , did a 20% water change with Zephyr Hills drinking water (which is R.O. filtered), and added some Cycle. The Zephyr Hills water always tends to have a high PH, so I always bring it down to 7.2 before adding it to the tank.

I couldn't find any medicated food locally, so I purchased Mardel Maracyn disolving tables. Is anyone familiar with this? I ordered some Jungle Anti-Bacteria Medicated Fish Food from Drs Foster& Smith. According to FedEx tracking, it's supposed to get here on the 26th. When it get's here do I hold off on using it, and finish the 5 day treatment of Maracyn?

I had been planning on moving the fish into a 150 gallon tank in February or March, after I move (with plans/hopes to tranfer them to a pond near the end of 2008). Even though 150 is still 30 gallons shy of 20 gallons per fish, can they live comfortably in one with over-filtration and added aeration?

Dealing with the present: With both a 170gph and 150gph filter running, added aeration, and weekly 20% water changes, can I keep them in the 29 gallon tank till February?

Thanks for all the help. You guys are awesome!

-Gimpy

P.S.
I feed them Wardley Essential Goldfish flakes in the morning, and Wardley Goldfish mini Floating pellets at night. The 4incher gets occasionally hand fed Omega One freeze-dried shrimp as a treat. In addition, they supplement their intake by slowly destroying.... er eating my Vallisneria plants.

P.P.S.
I'll be getting a Nitrate test kit tomorrow.

What about using an air pump rated for a 30 to 60 gallon tank on a 29 gallon tank?

Thanks again,
Gimpy

Hi again, SG

I'm glad to hear that you have a wonderful future home for all of your fish!
I'm not an expert - and they can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your fish can live in the tank until then - provided that they have pristine water to live in. You will need to do more frequent water changes than 20% weekly. I do water changes every other day in my 10 gallon, between 30% - 50%. I had two Shubunkins in there - and I am still doing them the same - even with the one fish. They need the clean water, especially when they're healing.
Please try to do more frequent water changes, and be sure to use a gravel vac, too. I don't recall if you said you already do this. So much nasty stuff collects down there - if you have gravel.

That's my two cents - for what it's worth. (What's a penny worth nowadays anyway? )

I wish you all the best with your fish. I hope they all get better and enjoy their bigger home in the spring!

Debbie

Hey Gimpy,

Good to hear back. Yes the nitrite will have been pretty lethal and def, reduced immunity to bacteria always present in the tank water.
What happens when you 'seed' a new tank from media from an old one is the ammonia producing stage may well be skipped and you move straight into the nitrite phase of the cycle where there are enough beneficial bacteria to deal with the ammonia but not quite enough yet to deal with teh nitrites. So you get nitrite showing. Unfortunately it is even more dangerous than ammonia and you'd do well to keep a daily eye on that (and the ammonia) and water change your way out. Reducing nitrites can only be done properly via water changes-not products.

You really really need to be upping that 20% water change weekly to 50% daily minimum in an uncycled overstocked tank or this situation will gte worse.

The Mardel maroxy is basically stablised chlorine oxides which act as a disinfectant to the tank. This will also have a bad effect on your good growing bacteria Im afraid. In a newly cycling tank you would be better to stick with the medicated food, you run the risk of worse ammonia and nitrite peaks if not...you can stop the meds with no danger when the med food starts as they are not "antibiotic" in the sense that you should finish the course.

The airpump issue is fine believe me. The 30-60 gallon pump is okay. Oxygen is very important with overstocking. Remember the fish use it up- as does the cycling and pH stabilising process. The extra filtration is great. I hope it will tide you over till the new tank. You may want to feed only once a day while cycling to reduce end waste>ammonia>nitrite. And look at feeding your guys de-shelled cooked peas for extra vitamins -fish need greens and fruit/veg which may be why they are devouring the plants.

Oh and You are not an idiotYou realise you are overstocked and there lies the problem, that puts you in the top 5% of all fish owners-I'd call that wise.

Thanks, Debbie.
I'm a big fan on gravel, and big on vacuuming it to avoid nastiness build-up.




..But i'm not using Maroxy. I'm using Maracyn. It's supposed to be the antibiotic erythromycin. Will using this have adverse affects on the benefical bacteria?


Again, thanks for all the help.

-Gimpy

Okay. Thats better. But you'll still need to watch your water params. Most water meds can affect them. Maracyn treats for gram pos bacteria and may work for a few gram neg. It seems the bacteria is inside the fish though -right in behind the eyes where water meds cannot reach well- and I would suggest medicated food (which does not cause water issues) something like Metromeds (available from Goldfish Connection.com ) here rather than a water born med.

Been doing daily water changes except for Sunday and Monday (was out of town). They seem to be about the same, -maybe- slightly improved (except for the Sarassa), but my nitrite levels have dropped and my amonia levels have shot up. ??? I'm using Amquel+ with my water changes and still feeding them the medicated food. The Sarassa now periodically clamping his dorsal fin, and I noticed a white growth on his right side. It looks kind of like a pimple and there might be something small sticking out of it. Could this be some sort of parasitic infection?? I haven't quarantined him yet, because the other fish -seem- unaffected and I don't want to risk stressing him.

<sigh>

Thanks for all the feedback and happy new year.

-Gimpy

It could be anchor worm if you can see a red spot with a white tiny piece emerging. The anchor worm- maggot buries itself into the fish (creating the red entry mark you can see in the pic) and the tail of the worm can be seen sticking out. Here's a pic of a pearlscale fish with anchor worms in several places to give you an idea of what these parasites look like:


There are 2 worms attached to the tail and 2 on the body under the tail, one longer than the other.

If its this, the whole tank will have to be treated with dimilin or a similar product. Dimilin does usually not affect your cycle, added ingredients may.

How are you doing with getting the ammonia/nitrites to zero ?

How are your fish these days, SpeedGimp? Anything new on their condition?