i have a common goldfish (purchased as a "feeder") named mish and we moved him to a quarantine tank after noticing some fin rot. there were also some gray spots around the tail and fin. we treated him with coppersafe and marycin 2. we've also added salt, and given him .3% salt dips. the other fish, a calico ryukin, common goldfish, and weather loach all seem fine. we've had mish and mash, the common goldfish, for about a year and nine months. since mish has been in the quarantine tank he's gone through ups and downs. he's been in there around a month and his fins have somewhat improved. in the last few days he's started flashing and darting wildly, for short intervals, and after carefully observing him after an episode we noticed two tiny tad-pole like creatures in the water. these are not pond fish, but aquarium fish. so in the past two days, he has flashed twice and each time there was one of the tad-pole/wormy things in the water. today, we were watching one in the glass, and it turned into a tiny fly-like thing. whitish. previously i was suspecting nematodes, as they resembled the creepies most closely. so now we're pretty sure it's not a worm but larvae. he's also lost some scales. we don't know where they're coming from...if he's pooping them out, or what!? but he flashes wildly right before one appears. i need help figuring out what this is!

Hi there, Rockfish, and !

Is that tad pole like creature more round, shaped like a disk? I am wondering if it is fish lice, and the grey spots you have seen are actually the lice attached to your fish. And they are capable of free swimming as well - I have seen them in my tank about a year ago, swimming.

Just to give us a better picture about the fish's setup, daily/weekly maintenance, feeding and filtration, and such, there is a big box on top of this section. You can copy/paste it, and possibly fill in as many answers as you can. Especially water tests are very important, mostly for ammonia,nitrites/nitrates and pH. If you don't have any test kits, your local pet store will do it for you if you bring a sample. And since you are at it, test the tap water as well. Sometimes there are things in the water (like ammonia and nitrates) that can throw off the best well intended water change.

Hi Andrea, thanks so much for responding :-)

Here is the information; I used the API freshwater master test kit.

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: higher than 5 ppm, but less than 10 ppm
Ph Level: 7.2
Ph Level of tap: off the 8.0.

The quarantine tank (which mish has been in for a month) is a 20 gallon tank.
There is a Penguin 170 biowheel filtering the tank, which was placed after the course of medicines ended, about a couple of weeks ago.
There is also a Fluval 1 Plus with a charcoal filter.

The water in the quarantine tank has been getting changed about once a week, with about 25% water being added.
Mish is alone in the quarantine tank...and I don't think he likes being alone.
We use Dechlor in the new water we add, I think I want to switch to Amquel.

Currently no medications, previously we treated with Coppersafe and Marycin 2...both according to directions. We also added salt, to a .1% but did not add more after last water change. We did dod a salt dip .3% a few days ago.

The fish food is Nutrafin Max flake food.

I don't see any "grains of salt"...some graying and some fraying at tips of the tail, not round critter-like, definitely more like fin rot or fungal things I've seen in other fish at other times. Some deterioration of dorsal fin, but as I said, improved some since her first went into the quarantine tank.

Lots of weird behavior over the course of this month. He's been flashing for brief periods, about 4 episodes in the last few days. He darts around like crazy, dives, burrows into corners when this happens. Before that he was staying at the bottom a lot, energy improved after salt dip a few days ago, when we thought he was not going to make it. He had been floating kind of sideways at that time. Then the flashing started. And the bugs. These do not look like lice. The closest picture I've found to what I've seen resembled nematodes. Tiny, wormy, a few millimeters long, with tapered end, a decidedly dark grey "head" and moves in the water by flicking it's rear, like a tad-pole, only very tiny. Then we saw one develop into a tiny tiny gnat-like thing. I'm talking really tiny, but visible. These things appear after he flashes, but we haven't seen where they come from, nor do we see anything attached to his body, trailing from his behind, etc. I haven't scraped his scales, and I'm hesitant to do it, and he's got more than 5 missing scales already.

I hope all this info helps, and I'm desperate to get rid of this and make mish happy and get him back to his friends.

I just realized a typing mistake: the PH Level of the tap water is 8.0...so ignore the "off the" part.

Mish has been swimming sideways at times for the past couple of hours. I was busy working but just did the second salt dip since the one a few days ago, and he seems to be more upright and active. Help, I don't know what's going on with the poor little guy.

I'm new to the forum, so sorry if this is not the right protocol. I'm reposting this in emergency as things are getting worse for Mish. He's swimming sideways, and I found him on his side on the bottom of the tank a few minutes ago. No new tadpole-like wormy things. So far. I'm just going to cut and paste all the info from my initial post(s) in hopes that someone will see it and give me a suggestion as to what to do.

Here's my initial frantic post:

i have a common goldfish (purchased as a "feeder") named mish and we moved him to a quarantine tank after noticing some fin rot. there were also some gray spots around the tail and fin. we treated him with coppersafe and marycin 2. we've also added salt, and given him .3% salt dips. the other fish, a calico ryukin, common goldfish, and weather loach all seem fine. we've had mish and mash, the common goldfish, for about a year and nine months. since mish has been in the quarantine tank he's gone through ups and downs. he's been in there around a month and his fins have somewhat improved. in the last few days he's started flashing and darting wildly, for short intervals, and after carefully observing him after an episode we noticed two tiny tad-pole like creatures in the water. these are not pond fish, but aquarium fish. so in the past two days, he has flashed twice and each time there was one of the tad-pole/wormy things in the water. today, we were watching one in the glass, and it turned into a tiny fly-like thing. whitish. previously i was suspecting nematodes, as they resembled the creepies most closely. so now we're pretty sure it's not a worm but larvae. he's also lost some scales. we don't know where they're coming from...if he's pooping them out, or what!? but he flashes wildly right before one appears. i need help figuring out what this is!

This is Ranchu girl's response (thank you!)

Is that tad pole like creature more round, shaped like a disk? I am wondering if it is fish lice, and the grey spots you have seen are actually the lice attached to your fish. And they are capable of free swimming as well - I have seen them in my tank about a year ago, swimming.

Just to give us a better picture about the fish's setup, daily/weekly maintenance, feeding and filtration, and such, there is a big box on top of this section. You can copy/paste it, and possibly fill in as many answers as you can. Especially water tests are very important, mostly for ammonia,nitrites/nitrates and pH. If you don't have any test kits, your local pet store will do it for you if you bring a sample. And since you are at it, test the tap water as well. Sometimes there are things in the water (like ammonia and nitrates) that can throw off the best well intended water change.

Here's my reply:

Hi Andrea, thanks so much for responding :-)

Here is the information; I used the API freshwater master test kit.

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: higher than 5 ppm, but less than 10 ppm
Ph Level: 7.2
Ph Level of tap: off the 8.0.

The quarantine tank (which mish has been in for a month) is a 20 gallon tank.
There is a Penguin 170 biowheel filtering the tank, which was placed after the course of medicines ended, about a couple of weeks ago.
There is also a Fluval 1 Plus with a charcoal filter.

The water in the quarantine tank has been getting changed about once a week, with about 25% water being added.
Mish is alone in the quarantine tank...and I don't think he likes being alone.
We use Dechlor in the new water we add, I think I want to switch to Amquel.

Currently no medications, previously we treated with Coppersafe and Marycin 2...both according to directions. We also added salt, to a .1% but did not add more after last water change. We did dod a salt dip .3% a few days ago.

The fish food is Nutrafin Max flake food.

I don't see any "grains of salt"...some graying and some fraying at tips of the tail, not round critter-like, definitely more like fin rot or fungal things I've seen in other fish at other times. Some deterioration of dorsal fin, but as I said, improved some since her first went into the quarantine tank.

Lots of weird behavior over the course of this month. He's been flashing for brief periods, about 4 episodes in the last few days. He darts around like crazy, dives, burrows into corners when this happens. Before that he was staying at the bottom a lot, energy improved after salt dip a few days ago, when we thought he was not going to make it. He had been floating kind of sideways at that time. Then the flashing started. And the bugs. These do not look like lice. The closest picture I've found to what I've seen resembled nematodes. Tiny, wormy, a few millimeters long, with tapered end, a decidedly dark grey "head" and moves in the water by flicking it's rear, like a tad-pole, only very tiny. Then we saw one develop into a tiny tiny gnat-like thing. I'm talking really tiny, but visible. These things appear after he flashes, but we haven't seen where they come from, nor do we see anything attached to his body, trailing from his behind, etc. I haven't scraped his scales, and I'm hesitant to do it, and he's got more than 5 missing scales already.

I hope all this info helps, and I'm desperate to get rid of this and make mish happy and get him back to his friends.

Hang in there Rockfish! I am not sure where the mods are as there is another emergency that I have been trying to help with. However, I am not skilled in meds and your fish definately needs something for the parasites. Hopefully, a mod will be on soon to help you out. I sure hope your fish gets better soon!!!

Thanks for the words of encouragement Nickie :) It helps to know I have fish-loving community out there. Mish is having problems swimming, on his side and on the bottom most of the time. I'm trying to stay hopeful.

No, Rockfish, we are FAMILY here and we look after our own, Hon! I just wish I could help you more! That's right, you stay hopeful and I am sure Trinket, Pix, or Fishmerised, or SOMEONE will be on shortly to help you out.

Aw, you are so sweet, Nickie. I'm so glad I found you guys. I'm glued to this site. And watching my fish. Poor thing, he's struggling and I'm quietly frantic :krazy:

Heya Rockfish, I am so sorry about poor Mish and that it didn't turn out to be lice which are easier to treat! Can you get hold of some medicated food soon as you will need some to treat Mish for these nasty parasites from the inside where they may be 'breeding'. All the fish should be treated as this is contagious.

Encysting larval parasites like these have a notoriously long life cycle and are rather difficult to treat with copper (because they would need prolonged immersion which is dangerous for the fish), and will certainly not be eradicated with Maracyn or salt.

You are going to need 2 arms of attack. One is internal (the food) and one external (water born treatment) and the water treatment will probably have to be repeated every few weeks for several months to completely destroy the larval stages.

From your description the headed worm could be one of several worm like parasites. I'm thinking either monogenean (the grey skin patch is typical)-some types are huge and visible- these will have a caterpillar like jerking motion in the water OR a cestode trophozoite that turns into an actino sporean which could resemble (but isnt) a tiny fly. The latter (myxozoan) parasites will produce pseudocysts and if it were possible it would be good if you could look at your fish with a strong magnifying lens and see if you can see the small lesions typical on those affected grey areas.

Better still would be a wet mount of feces containing eggs or a scrape of infected skin tissue so we could identify more precisely.

Here are the meds I recommend that will cover for several kinds of larval parasites including the above mentioned. Can you get hold of
and get started on either:

straight PRAZIquantel (first choice because it wont hurt your cycle too much and the whole tank MUST be treated)
or
Potassium Permanganate Very powerful total disinfectant and my first choice if you are available to watch the tank for 24 hours, pretty much constantly.

Also medicated food:

Either: Jungles anti parasite food is very good
Or: Ultra Cure PX
Both these have the correct ingredients to kill the eggs inside the fish. The Prazi or PP will kill the free living and skin/epithelial living forms.

Just a quick observation: You say you have treated with Coppersafe, correct? Have you used any copper removal resins or even NEW charcoal since? Copper is a fantastic treatment for a wide range of nasties in the tank because it is soooooo poisonous. But copper is also very dangerous - even Coppersafe and Cupramine and other chelated copper compounds - can have adverse reactions in a tank.

Copper - even chelated - can "attach" to various things in your tank - leaving a copper "residue" in the tank. This can react VERY adversely in the presence of some other chemicals you may add. PRime and Amquel are two of the BIG no-nos when using copper products.

Any aldehyde based medications, or if you dose with a dechlorinator, such as Prime™ then the Cu+2 in the CopperSafe can be reduced to Cu+. Cu+ is 10 times more toxic than Cu+2.

Do not use Formalin with Cupramine or any other copper medication. It will reduce the Copper +2 to Copper +1 which is highly toxic at even small doses. There are also a whole host of other cautions on the use of copper.

Carbon will draw the most types of copper from the water, over time. But the carbon has a limited "life" and will need to be replaced. After your water no longer tests positive for copper, you should remove ALL the carbon used in the tank. Only at that time can you consider the tank copper free and available for other medications/treatments/dechlorinators, etc.

The use of a good copper anitparasitic agent is a GREAT idea, but care must be used.

that's strange, I thought I replied to this post. I think there may be two and they'll need merging.

Terrific info on copper and really important. I can't use it as a medication myself as we battle with soft water and copper is also lethal in soft water.

I believe there's a post like this in 911 also.

Debbie

GOod catch. I will merge them.

Thanks Carol (and Debbie). I cant merge in emergency.

Thank you everyone for the great information. Mish made it through the night, but he's pretty much in the same shape. :(

I have no way to test for copper, and there has been Coppersafe added again. I'll try to find a test kit. I hope I'm not poisoning Mish with Copper! There has been new charcoal added. I haven't used Amquel but I have used a dechlorinator, Dechlor.

I'm going to try to get my hands on one of the medications mentioned. I've read about Prazi. Unfortunately we have to go out of town for a couple of days, a family thing I can't miss. I have a friend taking care of all the critters around here. I don't think the PP will be an option.

Thanks for noticing and merging my posts. I mentioned when I reposted that I'm new and don't know the protocol, so I posted again in Emergency when things took a turn for the worse and I got desperate for answers.

I'm going to the pet store and I'll report back. Thanks again Fishy Fish, daryl and Trinket :)

PRazi is a WONDERFUL medication - and virtually impossible to overdose or harm the fish. IT takes care of a whole host of parasitical problems - not all, but a whole bunch. It is well worth it. It comes in many mixtures - you can find it in PArasite Clear - a light dose mixed with a simple antibiotic med - the combination can be pretty good.

Another PRazi is PRaziPro - a pre-mixed med. It is easy to use - a bit lightweight in concentration - but should do a lot of good.

If you are really serious, you can buy pondprazi - the 100% dry powder you mix yourself. Mixing is a bit of a pain - it does not like to go into solution - or even a slurry, but, even if added to the tank in specks, it will work great. The fish will eat some of the specks (that is GOOD) and the rest will slowly go into solution as they travel around in the currents.

Prazi keeps practically forever on the shelf - but is quite expensive.

As long as you are going to the store you might want to look for garlic guard - or some other type garlic food or food additive. Copper has another downside I forgot to mention - it tends to lower the fish's immunities a fair bit. Garlic can help raise the immunities back to normal again.

Okay. I got the Copper test kit and it tested positive at a concentration of .25 ppm. I'm going to do a partial water change and see if I can get resins to remove the rest. Have I poisoned him with Coppersafe in addition to what he's going through? :krazy:

I also got Prazipro. The woman at Albany Aquarium (love them, I'm going there from now on!) said that I could double the recommended dosage, and that it wouldn't hurt to up it even more.

They didn't have any of the foods recommended, but she scooped out some of their own supply of a Jungle anti-parasite with some instructions. I saw the garlic recommendation just now and will try to get some of that.

What's the best way to deal with him given that there is copper in the tank? Should I take him out and put him in another container with some water form the cycled tank and add fresh water? There's no Coppersafe in that one and the other fish are fine. Or should I leave him in and take the charcoal filter out and treat it for the copper before starting the other meds?

I am sooo glad I found Koko's, Mish and I are very grateful!!!

I would see if you can lower the copper with carbon, alone. Some types and some ways in some tanks, it is possible. That will be the easiest and cheapest. IF not, I suggest you look for the rosin block that is sold for removing copper - it does it slowly and gently - and can be recharged and reused - it lasts forever....

At .25ppm copper, you have NOT poisoned him. You just have to be a bit careful about what else you add in when there is copper in the tank. I do not think PRazi would react..... but do not know for sure.

I guess if you have the ability to remove him from the tank, use a cycled media "donation" to recycle a "new tank" with non-copper contaminated stuff, you could clean out the other tank top to bottom and restart it.....

I agree. Restart that tank.. Its hard to get all the traces of that stuff out. It isn't the best start for new meds going in.

Great you got ahandful of Jungles- that's the one that will work inside.

And no worries about protocol, I was seeing double last night is all daryl fixed it.

Get the fish back in the tank soon as you are cleaned up as space is important to de-stress the fish and all the fish need treating here.

I figured that about the new meds. I'm going to get a resin block, hopefully I can find one.

I'm going to start a new tank on Monday, when it's time for the second cycle of Prazi. I did a 50% water change from the cycled tank, didn't add tap as I read the post about it mixing with DeChlor (which I need to add of using water from the tap that hasn't sat out).

I put a fresh carbon filter in for a short time and retested, definitely lower copper, closer to the 0 ppm color, but the directions say ANY color change indicates copper...I also tested my tap water for copper but it stayed totally clear.

I had to remove the carbon filter so I could put the meds in, then I added Prazi to the tank and soaked some food for him with the jungle internal medicine and put it in. Mish ate a little.

I guess it's a waiting game now, how long does it take for the Prazi and jungle to kick in, any ideas? Mish is mostly floating on his side and also turns upside down. He does swim very occasionally or when we gently prod him (he wants to go hide behind the filter, sideways, and it's cramped and we don't want him hurting himself further). He seems to be breathing heavily and slowly. He's struggling, but definitely fighting...he seems to have some energy despite not being able to stay upright. I really wish I didn't have to go out of town tomorrow. :(

Off to the pet store...

We are all rooting for ya!!! Keep us posted!!!

Mish didn't make it through the night and passed away sometime before Saturday morning, before I had to go out of town. It was too late by the time he got the right medication, I guess he was just too sick.
This has been a great learning experience, I just wish I had been able to save Mish. At least he's not suffering like he was towards the end.

I can't thank everyone who showed support and offered advice. Thanks from the bottom of my heart to Andrea, Nickie, Daryl, and Imogen.

I'm going to treat the other fish with Prazi, though they are not showing any signs of illness, especially since this medication can't hurt them.

So glad to have found kokos. I'll be around to share the good experiences and tales of thriving fishies, and of course, I'm sure I'll need more advice.

I am so sorry about Mish! You did everything you could and gave your fish a good life. I think it is a good idea to treat the rest of your fish cause Lord knows they could get the parasites, too. Hang in there!!!!

Oh no. I am so sorry. Mish

We're here for you if theres anything else you need to ask or talk about.