okay, so i just attempted vacuuming the gravel. i don't know what i did wrong, but all of the sudden the tank was nearly empty and i had only accomplished stirring up the gravel and banging around. did i screw it up somehow?

oh, and in other news, i got a 20 gallon tank for christmas! yaaaay!! i can't set it up just yet, cause i have nothing to sit it on.

Did you see any "gunk" being sucked up in the syphon from the gravel? If the water was being sucked up, then the syphon was working right.
Congrats on your new tank, too!!! Woot!!!

the gunk was getting stirred up, that's for sure. i think some of it must have gone up, but the tube is gray, so it's hard to tell!

in other news, after siphoning and a w/c (with baking soda), her [hard to remember to change that pronoun!] pH is at 7.6. hoping to keep it there...

Good luck! BTW, when you do set up your new tank, you may want to go bare bottom. It is healthier for the fish and easier to keep clean. I only have a scattering of river rocks on the bottom of my tank; just enough for the fish to root around and forage in.

Congrats on the new tank!

Nickie's idea about barebottom is a great one. The bottom of my tank is similar to hers...I have some rock and marbles scattered around the bottom. They love rolling the marbles around, and its much easier to clean. Gravel looks great, and I do have it in my tropical tank, but it also has the potential for problems if you're not vigilant about vacuuming it.

It seems from your posts that Fisher is doing some better, and that is wonderful! Give yourself a pat on the back!!

You're not a bad fish mom. Most of us came here with ill fish not knowing the right way to care for them. Thats why Koko started this forum to help fish owners know how to take the best possible care for their pets. You came to the right place for help.

Good luck, and be sure to read the pinned thread about the cycle of the tank so it will help you get your new tank cycled safely! It explains the different ways to cycle, either with fish or fishless. And all of us will be here to help any way we can!

I don't have anything of importance to add to the discussion but I just wanted to say that I've been following the thread and I'm really pulling for Fisher . I'm really excited for you on getting that 20 gallon tank! That's such great news. I agree with going barebottom. We have Fred & Ginger's tank barebottom and as soon as Lucy is well enough to get out of the hospital tank, it's going barebottom as well. We have some marbles in there that they like to root around in (Fred moreso than Ginger).

Thanks for your support! Fisher and I appreciate it!

I think i'm going to try a combination of light gravel and riverstones. Fisher has always been a fan of roaming in his gravel...I'm just going to do a better job at keeping it clean (and work on mastering the silly gravel siphon). And for some reason (and I think I'm in the minority here), I just don't like the look of bare-bottom all that much...if it comes down to a health issue, I'll go in that direction though.

I just noticed that my thread has over 100 replies -- admittedly, 1/2 of them are my own -- but I just wanted to say another huge THANK YOU to all of you who have been helping me out. Fisher would definitely not have survived as long as she has without your advice and support. I'm ridiculously grateful for all the help, and for being patient and taking baby steps with me!

You are very welcome!!!! That is what this forum is all about. It is so good to hear that Fisher is still hanging in there. As far as the gravel and stones, that mixture will be fine as long as the gravel is not the size where he can get it stuck in his mouth. I would also not put a deep layer of it in the tank. It makes cleaning it easier. Welcome to the KoKos family, Hon!!!

Quick update between christmas parties: Fisher is floating! Yay! This is the best she's looked in the last two weeks. She's slowing swimming around and laying down every now and then...much better than a quick swim and drop to the bottom. Fisher even ate food from the top -- I didn't have to hand feed! Huzzah!

Yay!!! Things are looking up for Fisher!
And you're not really in the minority about bare-bottomed tanks. I love the look of gravel, its just a pain in the butt for me with the goldfish and a 30 gallon tank. That and the fact that Moby was ill when I put them in the big tank, and I'm kind of paranoid. I do plan to do some redecorating of the tank after Christmas, though. I just haven't really had time or money to change things right now. I'm getting kind of bored with the looks of it right now. I love to switch around decorations and change the tank's appearance.

And you are very welcome. I, also, was "ridiculously grateful" for the help and support I got when I came here, and it makes me feel like I'm giving something back. It meant so much to me when Moby recovered because of what I learned from the terrific people on here, and it makes me feel better to know there is somewhere I can turn if we start having issues again.

This is a great place, and we are glad to have you here!

Glad to hear that Fisher is improving. She has certainly put up a fight. How many days is it now on the medicated food? It should say how many days are recommendeda nd you should try not to go over that by too many days.

The gravel is a famous breeding ground for all kinds of nasties. It takes a lot of work to maintain and is definitey harder to look after in a smaller tank. I have one gravelled tank. My largest. I love the look of gravel but try to keep my gravel to just one layer of gravel.
Its very thin so its easy to move around and clean under. Since the goodbeneficial bacteria only live in the top layer anyway (and the nasties deep under) this works well for me and my fish in there.

Congratulations on your new home coming for Fisher. Things will be very much easier. Hopefully she will have healed up more by the time the new tank arrives. Oh and watch that syphon all the time- there have been plenty of accidents reported here with syphons- I'm sure you are doing fine getting the hang of that.

How's pH?

The pH has been reading 7.4/7.6. Should I gradually add less baking soda and see if it holds or something? Or should I keep adding the same amount?

The medicated food says 5-10 days. Fisher's been on it since the 14th -- so the feeding that happens while I'm out of town will probably be the last.

I continue to be thrilled that Fisher is swimming around (as much as she can in her tiny tank!)... Yay!

Some new and improved Fisher pictures before I leave town...

Yay! I can swim again!


And I can eat from the top too!

YAY! He looks like he's healing well

She looks sooooo much better!

And that tank looks soooo small, lol! I have a tank just like that, that I use for a quarantine tank if I need one. You will be amazed at the difference when you get her into a bigger home!

Congrats and good luck!

Well I suppose you have gone away now but I just wanted to say congrats on her recovery. That is so awesome and she is so beautiful.
The spirit of fish to heal and recover so inspires me!!! It looks like you've done a good job on getting the tank water better too. Just imagine how happy she will be when she gets in the 20 gallon- can't wait for that pic!

I was also wondering if its time for some new quality pellet food for her. When you get back. Fish food, esp flakes should be thrown out after 6 months from opening. A little trick I learnt is to buy new food for a fish convalescing from being very sick. All the nutrients and vitamins are extra fresh and it will give her the best start after the med food course is up.

Uberleslie,

Congrats on nursing Fisher back to health! I hope she does well during your time away.

So, we're back. Our fish-sitter said she was good on Sunday and Monday -- came to the top and ate food. She did a water change and everything tested fine when I got back. The gray spots seem to be disappearing and there isn't any red spots anymorw...but she's back on the bottom just hanging out. Didn't really come to the top for food last night or this morning. And this morning when I was leaving for work she was flashing around and freaking out. Any ideas what might be wrong?? It looks like she's given herself a fat bottom lip from the thrashing.

This morning water was:
ph: 7.2+ (not quite 7.6)
ammonia: 0
nitrates: 10 (last night was at 20)
nitrite: 0

I'm hoping to start setting up the 20 gallon soon -- but I have to get a base for it (likely this weekend).

Welcome back!

You need to get her into the larger tank. Meanwhile you should still do those large daily water changes. pH matched. Temperature matched. It isn't always enough to have perfect params. The bacteria accumulate very fast in small spaces and the daily w/cs provide the fish with fresh nutrients and minerals in the new water.

Also do you have an airstone in the tank?? I cannot see any bubbles in the pic, it is really very important to have some bubbles to help dissolve oxygen especially if its been a day since the last water change.

So I've set up the new 20 gallon tank. New rocks, new plants and fixtures. I've got an airstone (a ring-like one), which I did not have in the old tank. The filter is for a 20 gallon tank...I think it will suffice for now (it's the one that came in the tank kit), but I'll eventually upgrade.

(The tank is on an old TV stand for now...I'll upgrade that over the weekend hopefully!)

I've got about 14/15 gallons in the tank. I've treated with Prime and aquarium salt. I've had it running for about a half hour now -- I'm going to test the water in another half hour. If everything is okay and the pH and temp match, can I put Fisher in the new tank tonight or should I wait? If I need to wait, how long?

She's sorta looking worse for the wear. She's flashed around a couple times tonight and has lost a few scales. I swear it looks like she's broken her bottom lip or something. It's puffy and crooked, almost like it's split in half or something?!?!

Also whenever I do transfer her, should I put some of her old plants in the tank -- will she remember them?

Do you have an old filter on her 5g tank that you can put on it? The new tank will not be cycled, so you need to transfer as much media from the old tank to the new. If there is a filter on the 5g, put that on/in the new tank. It is okay to go ahead and put your fish in, but remember that the new tank will have to cycle, so you have to check the water at least twice a day and do wcs often. Good luck to you and Fisher!!!!

Fisher is officially in her new home. The water wasn't a 100% temp match, but she spazzed a bit in her transfer bowl...so she rushed the procedure.

She's floating around and checking things out...







(Oh, and these are all her "good side" her other side is beaten up from losing scales over the past few weeks. Looks like she lost a few more today/yesterday too... )

I'm still concerned about her lower lip/jaw (the split and swelling) -- any ideas about what might be going on?? Tried to get a pic, but she's camera shy -- you can kinda tell it's puffy and irritated though.

her new home is beautiful, i am sure she loves it! I sure hope she is able to make a full recovery!!!

so this morning water was good -- 0s across the board with pH holding at 7.2ish (smidge darker, but not quite 7.6).

she tried to go for a few food flakes, but just gave up. i tried to hand feed, but she freaked... is there anything i can do for her lower lip/jaw?? it's only looking more puffy and irritated...

Leslie, the new tank looks fantastic and those water param readings are excellent. Do your best to keep them there and that'll mean daily checking as you 'cycle' this new tank.

I do notice in all those pics that Fisher's mouth is wide open. Can you take a little look at her right now and see if that is still the case?

If so, you should take a very close look and see if she has a piece of gravel stuck in her mouth. It often happens.

If not -and the mouth is empty but still sore looking, she may have the beginnings of an infection like mouthrot or possibly a mouth ulcer. Both these are easily picked up bacterial infections that strike a very weak fish as she has been.

The good news is that sometimes these bacterial infections can just heal up overnight in perfect water with no stress which you have right now. So I would leave her today and post back tonight with any changes. It will not harm her to go without food for a day or so.
I'll check back in here later to see how she's doing.

Congrats on the new home Am sure shes going to love it and make a speedy recovery

i looked in her mouth last night (as much as she would let me) and it doesn't look like there's anything in there. this morning when i left (i'm at work now) she was just hanging around with her mouth open -- it doesn't really close all the way. she's not really swimming, just floating parked in one spot...and every now and then she flashes.

here are sorta better pictures of what's going on with her mouth. the right side of it looks almost dislocated and white and puffy.







i don't think it's healing at all...looking a bit worse -- the tissue almost looks like it's dying. she can't eat with this at all... what do i do??

Its most likely a fungusy bacterial type mouth infection. It could also be mouth ulcer which would be a small pink lump inside the mouth. If you can catch a look inside see if it looks fluffy on one side or if you can see a raised pink lump. I think I can see some whitish fluffiness/cottony growth inside her mouth. If so this is probably the flexibacter gram neg rod bacteria and its a nasty one when it gets inside like this because the fish wont eat but the best medication is again, oral.

Can you let us know where you are with the medicated food you were feeding? Did you finish that course of medicated food?
I think whats happened is the med food was keeping this at bay and when you stopped feeding it the bacteria got hold again (the bottom sitting would time right with that).

Her dorsal fin is way up again, all the red spots have cleared, her gills still look a little rough/grey from ammonia burns and bacteria but they seem to be healing well The sudden flashing is not an indication of sudden parasites - I think it is caused by her discomfort in the mouth and frustration at/discomfort with not being able to eat.. Temperature or pH dips will have her do that too.

What I would do for her next is EITHER:(flexi) a dip in potassium permanganate in a bucket separately and then back in her ammonia/nitrite free new tank with a course of antibiotic (oxytetracycline) med food. The idea with the PP dip is that it will kill off all surface bacteria immediately and this helps the fish regain her appetite. OR :(ulcer) a swab of the inside of the mouth with tincture of iodine (or h.p) on a cotton bud. This depends on what you can see inside her mouth. Let us know.

If she really will not eat, and you do not feel comfortable doing the PP dip or swab then you will have to treat the new water with an antibiotic bath. ("bath" is usually used for tank treatments-"dip" is the very short bucket/tub treatment). The very best one for this would be a water born antibiotic medication called "Maracyn TC" by Mardel or another one by Thomas Labs called "Fish-cycline". Both these two contain tetracycline. You can use this safely now that Fisher is looking a little stronger externally but there is one precaution you MUST adhere to with this medication. You must not allow direct light on the tank. Light will allow the bacteria to resist this light sensitive antibiotic. You will need to cover the tank with a large sheet and keep her in the dark except for feeding times for the first few days at least.

If you cannot see inside her mouth as she swims, you can gently raise Fisher to the surface of the water with your hand. Dont take her all out, just her face out of the water is enough and less sacry for her. As her face leaves the water she will open her mouth as far as she is able to. This is an instinctive fish reaction. You need to make sure that you do this very gently and preferably only once to avoid stress.

Edit: Just had another look at the pics and in pic#3 it is looking like asmall hard lump on the left inside of her mouth.In the first pic it is looking more cottony. You are the best judge of which this is, let us know soon what you think .

i read lots of reply here most of ya'll kept saying get a larger tank

none which will help the FISH current situation

help the fish first and later on give more advice



one of my other fish had that lip thing before but never sit at the bottom of tank
i used melflex to cure it

i would use flake flood for now

So this is how I can best describe the mouth issue... It is puffy and raised on the right side, making her lower lip almost look split and dislocated. The tissue on the right side is pinkish and fuzzy (almost like fraying skin -- you could say it's more cottony, but there's definitely a hole and lump). The left side just looks irritated. It really looks like there's a split -- even my husband said it looked like her jaw had cracked in two or something.

I changed about 8 gallons of the water tonight -- probably about a 60/70% change. (And finally got a good stand for the tank too!) Afterwards, I put in a few of her regular crisps/flakes and she did eat a few as they were falling. I put in a couple more and she swam to the top and got one, maybe two.

So should I put her back on the anti-bacterial food I have (if she eats it)? She finished a 10-day course of the food on Monday. Would this be enough to help the infection? Should I do this AND a medicated water treatment?

The whole dip/swab action makes me crazy nervous. I'm so not good at this stuff!

Okay, if the swab/dip makes you nervous I quite understand (but still recommend at least the swab believe me it is not hard to do and if there is also acut it is the best immediate help-it kills every bacteria it touches and aids healing).

Yes, if you still have the med food please start her back on that if she can eat. It will definitely help. Its a powerful all round one and it is interesting that this occurred immediately after the course was completed. Stop feeding the flakes. She has to be hungry to get the med foods in. Post right back if she cant fit the pellets in her mouth.

Message for Nismo: I don't think you understand the relationship yet between cause and effect of fish disease and how relevant a fishes living conditions are for any healing to take place. I recommend you read up some more on pre-disposing conditions for fish disease before suggesting that medication should be applied to a tank with less than optimal conditions and a fish that was this sick.

Only mods or helpers are allowed to give diagnostic advice on here, as they are the only ones qualified to do so. Trinket and the others have saved more fish on here than I would care to count.

You DO have another post here where you're asking for help, correct?

I realize you're new, but try to be polite, hmm?

So we're having a difficult time with the medicated pellets, but she IS eating them. They sink kind of quickly and she won't go to the bottom to get them...so I have to drop them just so they fall down in front of her, and she'll eat them then. This resulted in some wasted pellets on the bottom, but I think she ate about 8 or so.

Question about the swab... (I'll play dumb here) I don't know what a tincture is? I do have hydrogen peroxide though. Can I get a tincture iodine at a pharmacy or is this like a fishy-petstore-product?

And Nismo: Irregardless of her illness(es), Fisher was definitely getting a bigger tank the instant I knew what I was keeping her in was grossly insufficient. Trinket and Nickie and others have been totally right on in helping Fisher so far...She has improved SO much since this whole thing began and I have learned SO much from their help.

That is true vickie but sometime, someone are not mod and they might be new on the forum but not new to goldfish or life, some of them might had been raising goldfish for years, some are very experienced. And sometime it can be an extreme emgergency and none of the mod is on, it can be helpful that they come in and help. Sometime when a mod come on it would already be way to late. But then i agree, those that give advice should know what they are talking about. So it's also important to let someone expresses how they think, lol being new doesn't mean they have to shut up but cant give crazy false advice either lol

too bad i can't pm or i would send a pm to vickielm
there is no reason to reply to personal message
it just wont go anywhere to help the fish

I have had to feed fish in this way before as well, you can use a turkey baster to get the excess food off the bottom

And as for the tank issue, yes, improving the water quality can pretty much work miracles. Take it from someone who was given a 10 gal tank with 4 large goldies a few years back...I had to get a crash course in goldfish care from this site. I had tried medicating the tank repeatedly, but it wasn't until I invested in a larger tank and better filtration that the fish really healed.

PS...You're still doing a great job, you should be proud

thanks! i'm trying, that's for sure!

good idea with the turkey baster...i'll give that a shot.

i think my previous question about the swab got lost in the fray... I don't know what a tincture is? I do have hydrogen peroxide though. Can I get a tincture iodine at a pharmacy or is this like a fishy-petstore-product?

Hi Uberleslie

I looked up "tincture" for you. Here and sells in bottles like this

I hope her lip gets better soon. Keep your chin up. Trinket is great - but I'm sure you know that already.

Best wishes to you and your fish!! (I'm sorry - I don't remember her name )

Debbie

Always helps to have a pic thanks Fishyfish
Leslie- the hp you have for people will do fine though- so long as theres nothing added but the percentage of water they add thats necessary. If you want to get the iodine you can but the hp is equally great for this. And yes both are used for people mainly -not specifically sold in petstores. Vets use them though.

If you use the hp, just soak a Q tip -not dripping just moist- just as you would a small wound for a person. And when Fisher's mouth opens as her head is raised out of the water swab the exact spot just inside her mouth and around her lip. One swipe will do it. That's all it takes to zap these bacs in their tracks. Make sure NO hp drains down onto her gills or into her throat (although a drip in her throat will not kill her)and make sure you have everything ready preferably with hubby handing you the tip so you can do it speedily and efficiently without having to make repeated attempts which will be stressful. You can do it. And you'll do it very well I'm sure.

Okay. So we swabbed with peroxide. Caught and held her with the net and made two passes on the outside and got inside once. I really hope it helps.

Trying to get a better picture of what's going on:





I swear it still looks to me like she's broken her jaw or something... You can't really see in these pictures, but it looks like the right side of her jaw is up on top of the left.

Well done with the swabbing. I know its nerve-wrecking the first time but I do guarantee you it will have helped her. Only once is enough, you don't have to and shouldn't repeat that.

The latest pic is really clear (amazing pics you take, I cannot do this!!!) and I can see clearly that this is columnaris - the bacterial infection known sometimes as mouth rot. There are 2 kinds of columnaris. One is external and one is internal. This is the internal one and it starts with the edge of the mouth looking fungally like this (but it is not a fungus).

It attacks weak fish only. The flexibacter that are responsible live in all water-and gain entry to the fishes skin tissue via impaired gills (remember Fishers gill flaps looked grey?) and small wounds/pin prick dots (those red spots). It takes a while to incubate so this is still related to previous problems NOT with your devotion and tank care now.

Here's what can be done for internal columnaris:

1. Swab the mouth gently once. (done)

2. Daily water changes in spite of ammonia/nitrite being zero.You cannot see bacterial proliferation/build up and it is very rapid once bacteria have gained hold like this.

3. Internal medication. Antibiotic food.

4. Salt to 0.1% minimum or 0.2%

5 Antibiotic water born medication can be tried but is not always successgful because the bacteria are inside but it can help.

Let me just post this much and I'll post again in a moment as I know you are onlinenow and something funky is going on with my computer and its wiping out my posts so I want to get this much off....

Okay, back again. The best antibiotic food is one that contains teramycin/oxytetracycline. Here's a pic of the Geltek product:



This would be really good to get hold of as food, if she is eating is really the best for this. What you have there, the Jungle one is a good kind of kill all type medication but if it is not working (give it 3-5 days) and you see no improvement you will need to switch to a specifically targeted antibiotic. This antibiotic has been proved to work on the columnaris causing bacteria.

Next. Salting. Not epsom.This is rock/sea/kosher/pickling salt containing no anticaking agents or YPS. Do you have any? We can talk you through that. Its easy and really acts as a kind of antiseptic in the water that heals up wounds and assists the fish with osmoregulation of water while she is under the weather. I strongly recommend this.

Then, the antibiotic in the water. You can wait a few days for this. But may need it. Again, something containing the target antibiotic is best. Fish-cycline (Thomas Laboratories) or Maracyn TC (by Mardel) is excellent for this.

I know its a lot to do and think about but this is the whole whack of what's worked for columnaris and you can take any or all. I recommend food you have there and salting for 3 days. No improvement? Then the full whack.

I'll look into getting that medicated food. That's the one I tried to get awhile back and my local petstores both didn't have it...I'll likely have to buy online.

I am salting the aquarium with Aquarium Salt (Jungle brand). I've used it since I set up the new tank, and have put in 1 tbsp on Friday night (with an 8 gal change) and again tonight (with an 8.5 gal change). Should I use more than this??

Water readings have been good -- 0 ammonia and nitrite, showing a smidge of nitrate, and pH holding at 7.2.

So basically I'll keep doing what I'm doing until about Thursday. If there's no change, I'll go ahead and do the water antibiotic then.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for your help. I feel like I owe you SO much for all your advice and time!

Your poor little fishie!! We're all pulling for the both of you!! Congrats on the hp swabbing - great job!

I wanted to give you a link to the salting. Salt Link I believe Trinket said .1% minimum or .2%. This tells how to bring it up to .3%, but if you do it twice, you'll have .2%.

It may be helpful to keep track of how much water you remove when doing water changes, since you will be taking salt out. (If you take out 8 gallons, and you have the tank at .2%, you will have removed 16 tsps - 2 tsps per gallon at .2%)

Be sure to include any salt that you may have added already. (there are 3 tsps in a Tbsp) And be sure to read the salting link carefully! I'm no expert, I'm just giving tips from what I've done - with Trinket's help. (Isn't she awesome?!!? )

Debbie

Hi uberleslie! She is a beautiful fish, and I'm sure she'll come along fine with the medication advice Trinket has given you.

One comment about the salt. The aquarium salt that is at the lfs is pretty expensive. If there is a wallyworld or grocery near you, pickling salt, rock salt, kosher salt, etc. can be bought for next to nothing. I think a large box of pickling salt that will last you forever is under $2. Just be sure not to get table salt, as it has anti-caking ingredients.

so i found the gel-tek tetracycline at another local pet store. i put about 5 drops in the tank, per the label, and i think she got maybe 3. she won't go to the top to eat them...but when they float down right in front of her, she'll grab them -- she won't follow them down to the bottom though.

i'm refrigerating the bottle (per the label)...will the cold gel help them sink easier? any ideas to help the sinking?

How is she doing? Any improvement on her mouth at all? The refridgeration of the food should help the drops stay solid longer when they go in the water. Remember you have to feed just this one now so she gets enough of the antibiotic to get to work.

She's doing about the same. Staying in one place in her tank (she won't venture near the left side for some reason), and floating in place. She probably ate about 5 pieces of the gel food yesterday and maybe 2 this morning. I have to drop in 6-8 to hope she gets 1-2...she won't come to the surface for them, and doesn't go to the bottom when they fall in the gravel either.

Her lip is less red...it's more white-ish now. But fuzzy still.

Question about tank temp... Her water temp is usually 74/72. But it's been cold here lately and last night it was 68, this morning 64. Is that too low? Other than that, the water is good, pH finally holding at 7.2ish.

Low temp is fine if the drop is gradual. In fact this bacteria thrives at higher temps so low may be a little better although once it has got hold it will thrive on the fish whatever temp. The red open part healing though is a very good sign. It is going to take some time if she is not recognising the geldrops as food and finding them hard to catch. She must get plenty of that stuff inside her. Sending "geltek food is yummy-go hunt "vibes to Fisher