Test Results for the Following:
Ammonia Level? 0
Nitrite Level? 0
Nitrate level? 40
Ph Level, (If possible, KH and GH and chloramines)? 7.4
Ph Level out of the Tap? Unsure, will check if needed.

* Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running?
59 gals, running for around 8 months

* What is the name and size of the filter/s?
Eheim Ecco, not sure which size

* How often do you change the water and how much?
Once a week I do a 30/40% water change depending on how dirty the tank is.

# How many fish in the tank and their size?
4 fish, two orandas around 3cms and two redcaps about 1.5cms.

# What kind of water additives or conditioners?
Safe guard water conditioner.

# Any medications added to the tank?
None.

# Add any new fish to the tank?
None. Last fish added five or six months ago.

# What do you feed your fish?
Flakes, bloodworm and the occasional pea or two.

# Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt", bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
My golden oranda, Josh, is sick. His fins are a little frayed, redness at base of fins and what looks like blisters on his head filled with liquid. He's lost a lot of colour and is almost going transparent if that makes any sense! He has a small patch on his head with white pus, like a pimple being squeezed.

# Any unusual behaviour like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc..?
Sitting at bottom, head resting on the deck. It's like he's trying to burst the blisters on his face. He wasn't doing too well for a few days so I moved him to a smaller tank, then he improved a little and was more active and eating. Suddenly he's got these blisters on his face and can barely move to the surface.



The story: I noticed Josh had a white dot on his head, which I originally thought was white spot. I left it to see if more would appear before treating the tank, but none did. I then noticed that pus was trailing from it like a squeezed spot (graphic, sorry!). I removed him from the large tank and put him into a smaller ‘hospital’ tank where I kept an eye on him for a few days. I salted the water and he became a lot more lively and started to eat again. The white on the side of his head also disappeared.

Then I come home from work today and find that the white spot is back, and he now also has two large blister sacs on his face filled with liquid, one around his eye. There is also a white coat on the front of his face. It doesn’t look particularly slimy, but I don’t know. There’s also a bubble coming out of the top of his head, quite small. This has all happened in the last few days.

His behaviour is very worrying. He’ll sit at the bottom of the tank very still, and his head will hit the bottom of the tank as if it’s very heavy. I think his vision is obscured because of the large blisters.

I’ve went from hole-in-the-head to dropsy, to popeye, to costia… I just don’t know what it is to treat it properly.

I know he’s been quite stressed lately. The two redcaps have been very aggressive towards him. I caught them ‘headbutting’ him into the gravel last month. After separating them for a few weeks, they’re fine now as far as I can tell. He’s been out of the big tank with this disease, whatever it is, for a week now. The other fish show no signs of anything other than good health.

I don’t have a good enough camera to take pictures properly, but I’ll try to get my hands on my boyfriend’s phone when he comes back from work and see if that’ll work.

I’m so worried. I’ve had Josh for just under a year and he’s one of the family. I’ll do anything I have to – any advice is appreciated.

Also, are my nitrates really high? What can I do to lower them?

Thank you so much in advance for any advice you can give me.

Hi Narelle,
Welcome to KoKos! I am so sorry your fish is sick. I am not a mod, but one will be on shortly to help you out. Your nitrates are kind of high. You normally want to keep them below 20 if you can. Until a mod can come on and help more, I would suggest more water changes to try and get the nitrates down. Also, it would be great if you can remember the exact filter you have or at least how many gph it filters. Hang in there and I am sure they will be able to get your fishie back in good health! The people on the board are wonderful and helpful and the mods are excellent when it comes to fish diseases. Great to have you with us!!!

the white dots r probably new wen growth which is nothing to worry about, but the other thing u describe might be

look at this pic, that white dot is wen growth, it usually sticks out a little:

http://www.fbas.co.uk/wen1.jpg

Hi Narelle

You came to the right place to get help for your fish! The people here are great!
I'm sorry that your fish isn't doing well, and I know how frustrating it can be to be waiting for help. It feels like it's forever, but they're pretty quick on here. Someone will be along shortly who can give you the help you need.
I thought maybe this link might help you find your filter. It has different filters listed, and maybe yours is one of them. That'll help them a lot.
Remember that when you change water to remove nitrates, you remove the same percentage of nitrates as the water. If you do a 50% water change with nitrates at 40, you would still have 20 ppm of nitrates in your tank. Perhaps if you did water changes twice a week or did a larger change one week of the month, it would help to bring them down.
Good luck with your fish!! I hope he recovers soon!

Debbie

Thanks Nickie - I'll do more regular changes and up the percentage.



Thanks Shamu23, that picture is the same as the white dots on Josh's head so I think that will be the wen growth. Good to know!



Thanks Fishy Fish. After looking at that link, I think my filter is an Eheim Ecco 2233. It's an old one, but still works well.

I've also just noticed I wrote 59 gallons instead of 39 gallons in my first post. Whoops! Can't edit it now, but hopefully they will be able to see this bit.

39 Gallons! <<<<<<


Thanks for the links and the guidance so far, everyone!

Hi, I managed to borrow a camera phone to take a few quick pictures and a video of Josh swimming about. I hope this helps.

The more I see his eye, the more I think it's pop eye.

Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXBs8oh-338

Pictures
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e143/sporkal/DSC00035.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e143/sporkal/DSC00034.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e143/sporkal/DSC00033.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e143/sporkal/DSC00032.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e143/sporkal/DSC00028.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e143/sporkal/DSC00025.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e143/sporkal/DSC00021.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e143/sporkal/DSC00016.jpg

Hello Narelle and sorry to hear about your fish.

First of all don't sweat it about your nitrates - they could be lower, but up to 40 is not the end of the world and not the cause of your fishes illness.
Neither is it innoccuous wen growth - the bottom-sitting, ragged fins and redness along with pus trailing blisters point to something bacterial.
I'm thinking possible furunculosis or columnaris but I'd like to PM Trinket for you as she is excellent on diagnosis and more experienced than me.

PS You mention pop-eye - does the eye appear to be bulging outwards? I can't really see from the pics.

Hi Narelle. Your poor fish. And you for the worry.

Looking at those pics, while small white pustules on the head of a wenned fish can be normal, his behavior is definitely not. He looks very emaciated and pale. These are symptoms of systemic (internal) problems which are most likely - since there have been no new fish or items introduced to your tank- bacterial. The blisters if they are puss-filled are the fishes efforts to expel toxins through the epithelium and out.

I have a few more questions. Is this the first time you have seen these blisters? Is the fish eating? How is the poop- is it white?

Pop-eye is a side symptom -often indicating another disease is on board. Can you take a look at his gills form behind and cf. to your other fish check for color and any disintegration, abnormality like raggedness? Are the gills pink? Red? Brown?

Please post back soon so we can help choose some medication that will be best for your oranda.

I just re-read and see you said red at the base of the fins. Does that include the caudal fin? Is there a red line there? The different bacteria have preferential areas on the skin so knowing that would also help determine bacteria type. You are going to need an antibiotic food like Medigold if he is still eating and some waterborn treatment for bacterial infection but determing what is most appropriate depends on your answers to gills/poop and redness areas Qs.

yeah, that doesnt look like new wen growth, Trinket is probably right.

His eyes aren't bulging, he seems to have sacs of liquid / blisters forming around his eyes though.




This is the first time I've seen blisters on Josh (or on any of my fish).

He's eating fine, just seems to take a little while to notice the food, but once he does he's straight to it.

His poop is white, short and very stringy. The last time I had a chance to see it was yesterday, it may have changed. I'll keep my eye out though.

There's nothing on the caudal fin, but there is red at the pectoral fins and the other fins under the body. Not as bad as it was a few days ago, but still there.

Since posting this thread I've noticed an increase in the white on his head around the bubble at the top.

I bought Interpet's Anti Internal Bacteria treatment (http://www.warehouse-aquatics.co.uk/interpet-anti-internal-bacteria-no9-100ml-231-p.asp) a few days ago - do you think I should use that?


Thank you for all your replies, I really appreciate it.

I do know you got a bacterial infection going on with this fish, the eyes bulging is a sign of Popeye. Trinket or maybe Pixie will be able to help to find a UK med to treat this, since the only food here is Medtro-Med that helps with this.

One other thing you can start on is to see if you can find Epsom salt.

Also will need a heater the water will need to get up to 80F, so this means the fish needs a higher temp than any of the other fish, so do you have another tank? or is he separated, if he is then adjust the temp once every hours till its 80F.

Oh yes I just noticed you are in the UK. I'll have a look at the meds you got in a mo.

Narelle I just looked at the video- is that the QT he is in now? I can't see any other fish.

Well, what happens with a wen fish if the wen area is affected is this- because the skin is loose the cysts will look quite different from regular bacterial cycts and lesions, more raised and blistery than on the body, so I think as you say if they are forming around the eye it may just look puffy but may be a symptom of septicemic infection- probably from the myxobacteria and flavobacterium columnaris group. All of these are gram neg rods. The red at the base of the fins, spots on head, slime coat overproducing...the lethargic swimming and bottom sitting....these are all typical symptoms. The only problem I am having with this diagnosis is your fish looks rather emaciated. Is he simply a thin fish or has he lost weight through this? There are a few other rather more serious wasting away diseases you see.

All these bacterial issues first and foremost have to be looked at as a sign that either your filtration is not doing its job efficiently enough or is in need of vigorous maintanence, that water changes are no longer sufficient to alleviate bacterial numbers or that other stressors are present in the tank- overcrowding, pH and temp fluctuations etc. Do you have plenty of DO in the tank-lack of dissolved oxygen is a big pre-determining stressor for bac. issues as are sudden temperature changes. Try to get these all in order before adding the meds. Not nagging you- we all neglect some areas some times, I myself have had similar bacterial disease in my tanks at least 3 times.

Onto meds.

Can you get hold of Baktopur direct containing nifurprinol? That's a good one for this. Since all the UK meds are rather harsh-take care dosing any meds accurately in perfect water with plenty of DO at a stable temp. I believe the contents of the one you have there is Methylene blue but I'm just going to check fo you. You can get Baktopur direct from : reptilica.co.uk (tried to link it but it wont link for me) That would be my choice for this.

I would definitely try to get the Sera Baktopur Direct if you can.
Do not bother with the Interpet treatment as most of us over here have found it to be useless. (Trinks, the active ingredients are formaldehyde and methanol - but the dose, I think, is pretty low)
Also, Claire posted the other day to say that the Fish Sempaii in Canada will ship MetroMeds and MediGold to UK - I think it took about 4 days. This may be a little long but MMeds would be a the ideal, especially if he is still eating.

"Well, what happens with a wen fish if the wen area is affected is this- because the skin is loose the cysts will look quite different from regular bacterial cycts and lesions, more raised and blistery than on the body" - that is interesting Trinket, I didn't not know this before, which is why I was grappling with the bubble-look of the wen blisters.
Poor fish.

Yes if you possibly can -go for this. Metromeds contains oxytetracycline a very good antibiotic used internally for these bacteria (not so effective as a bath) You'll have a much faster recovery using internal meds.

Hi - would this do the trick? http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/fish/pond/me..._vitamins/30205

He is in the QT on his own at the moment.

The large tank and filter were inherited - I think it's time I replace the filter with a new one. I'm not sure how old it is. In the meantime, I'll step up my maintenance and replace the media.

He's always been quite a thin fish, I don't think he's been losing any weight recently.

Looking at it, I don't have much DO in the tank - would an airstone help?

That one can only be used in a QT situation as is very strong and will kill all your bioflterbacteria. It will do the job but it is harsher on the fish than the baktopur direct which is gentler if your fish is weak. It is your choice. I know speed of action is an important equation here too.

Yes- you certainly need more DO. That means splash at the surface via airstone or filter outtube. As much fountain splash as you can get on the surface will create the necessary gas exchange for creating obtainable oxygen beneath the surface for your fish who needs extra right now with impaired gill function and a depressed immunity. An airstone would be great for him.

If you possibly can get them, those Metromeds (antibiotic food pellets) would be fantastic as an internal treatment to run with the bath immersion meds.

Oh and dont replace the media- just rinse it and squeeze it out - add more if you can fit more in. If its rotten, add more underneath, wait a week and then remove the rotten. The media is home to almost all your beneficial bacteria.

Keep us posted.

I've just bought Baktopur Direct from reptilica.co.uk. I confused myself with the titles, I thought they were the same thing! I've bought that and an airstone for the QT tank. That should hopefully come soon.

I'm also looking into buying metro-meds right now.

I'll do another shop for the bigger tank once I get the QT tank sorted.

Thank you for all your help. I'll keep you posted on how Josh gets on.

You're welcome Narelle (from Pix too as she is not online right now). Well done for getting the best meds. I really believe you are doing all you can for Josh now and with this arsenal of meds he will beat this. He is a beautiful fish and I wish him a full recovery and a long life with you

All the advice you have been given is excellent - and I definately agree that he needs medications that will work from the INSIDE out. BUT..... as a secondary front of attack, I would also suggest that you gently swab the blisters on his head with either potassium permanganate or hydrogen peroxide. A cue tip, wet with hydrogen peroxide or wet with water and dipped into PP crystals and then gently rubbed over and around each of the blisters may go a long way to help the medications work well and swiftly.

Do not get the hp or pp into his eyes - skip those lesions - but go ahead and swab any lesions or red areas that you can easily reach. The best way is to lift him just out of the water OVER the tank. That way if he flips, he drops, unharmed, back into the water. I usually only lift the portion of the fish that I am swabbing out of the water - leaving the rest of the fish under the water. They get less distressed that way. Some of my fish get so used to the daily swabs that they relax into it well.

If you do PP and are not familiar with it, you may wish to have a "rinse" bowl available - to gently dip the fish in for a moment to rinse off any excess pp before replacing him in your qt tank. You do not have to worry about the hp.

How is Josh doing these days, Narelle?