i am sorry if I am posting this in the wrong section but I have a problem and need some help.I have three goldfish that are about 2 years old now in a 60 gallon tank. I changed 25% of the water out and tested my levels and everything was fine. My latest water change showed that the nitrate levels that were at 30ppm have now jumped to 250ppm. I am looking for some advice on how to lower this. I tried to add bacteria(thinking that the bacteria colony had died off), tried using nitrazorb (but it will only eliminate 25ppm over a 5 day period). The reason that I am concerned is it appears that my big fish is now beginning to flip upside down. Could someone please help me with this problem.

Assuming your ammonia and nitrites are zero, how often do you change the water? Nitrates above 40 can really irritate most fish. More frequent water changing will keep them below 40. Closer to 20 is better.

Have you checked your water source?

Do you have live plants in your tank? I've had to deal with high nitrates in the past (never as high as yours though...but my nitrates would go from 10-20 in 2 days) - and from what I've learned, live plants are a wonderful way to keep them down.

Hi Stubadub

is your test kit out of date? i am wondering as out of date test kits often have the nitrates higher than they actually are

the only thing to really do is water changes and big ones over the next few days 75% once a day i would say. if a mod comes along they will move this to water quality

Thank you for the replies on this. I will take a peek at my test kit. I do use the same water source as I always have and have never seen such a spike before. I do have a question about doing a 75% water change. How bad is that going to shock the fish? I also wanted to know someones opinion on gravel in a goldfish tank. It was pretty when they were small but I think that it is going to be a danger for them very shortly.

I frequently do 50% water changes and have never had any problems with the fish because of it. I don't know about 75%. I wouldn't suction the gravel every single day though. I only say that because I was treating a tank and was doing that (w/c 50% and suctioning gravel) everyday and blew my cycle. Maybe someone else has a different opinion on it. I would definitely suction the gravel regularly but just not every day.

As far as the gravel being dangerous, I would agree. If your fish can suck it up and eat it it could definitely be dangerous. I use river rock and naturally don't have a problem with it.

Good luck!

Hi stubadub

if your fish are big enough to choke on the gavel i would remove it and go barebottom better for the fish. i have 3 tanks 2 with gravel and 1 barebottom. The Barebottom is the easiest to maintain but my other two tanks are heavily planted which is why i chose substrate and it is more natural looking in my opinion

75% water changes are fine i do them once a fortnight. no it should not shock the fish mine are always fine. many people on this site do 50 - 75% water changes a week and there is one member who does 100% water changes daily. then there are people that do 100% water change a week

hope this helps

I agree - do 100% change on the tank to "start over" on the nitrates. Do not do anything to your filter media - other than rinse it in used fish water or in treated fresh water...... that way you can remove any mulm and waste, but should not disturb the beneficial bacteria that populate the media.

As far as gravel..... many people go "bare bottom" - using the minimum of stones - larger ones, too - so that the fish cannot be harmed by swallowing stones. If a fish can fit it in his mouth, he will. In fact - if a fish even THINKS he can fit it in his mouth, he will try!

Having much less on the bottom of the tank means far less waste will be trapped in the gravel..... (less disease and parasites, too). You will be able to totally clean the tank. Removing excess waste from the gravel before it is transformed into nitrates will also help in your weekly nitrate levels.....

Sometimes, when the nitrate levels get so high, the nitrogen cycle will slow - so test your other parameters, too. Those BB do not necessarily like to work so efficiantly in high levels of nitrate (nitrite/ammonia, too).

I hope it is as simple as a bad test kit..... but, in case it is not, you need to have a look at how you change out your water. Lets take a look at some numbers....

Say, for example, your fish produce 40ppm nitrate a week (actually the ammonia that is transformed into the nitrate....but go with the example, ok?). You have 40ppm nitrate at the end of 7 days. You then change out 25% of your water. This change will dilute the nitrate concentration down to 30ppm - for you have removed 1/4 of the nitrates. Now you wait another week. The fish make 40ppm more - and your tank is at 70ppm..... you do a 25% water change and you have about 52ish ppm nitrate left in the tank. LEt it go another week (52+40 = 92) and change 25% and you have 69ish ppm.....

See how the nitrates can climb even though you are changing the water?

To counteract this "creep", you need to do water changes more often or in greater volume such that you can remove ALL the nitrate that is produced each period of time between water changes.

I suggest you do a 100% change. That way you will start (hopefully - if your tap water has no nitrates!) with zero nitrates. Test the nitrates at the end of each day to find out where your levels are going. Then, if you wish to only do a water change every say, 7 days, you can calculate out how many gallons you will need to change to bring that nitrate level down to what it was at the end of the last water change - keeping the levels the same - and hopefully below 40ppm.

(If you already have a fish that is sensitive to nitrates (flipping) I would suggest making an effort to keep the nitrates under at least 20ppm at all times.....)

Does any of this make sense?

thanks for your help daryl. Who should I write the check out to?

Koko

So I have been reading a few of the posts and I was wondering if someone could look at me fish and tell me if it just a tipping issue. I am afraid that dropsy might be the case. FYI this fish's name is piggy and he has always been a fat fish since i got him two years ago as a baby. his body is about two and a half inches long. The tipping is not an all the time thing and most of the time it seems as though piggy is flipping himself on purpose. I just want to make sure that I catch what ever is going on as soon as possible.Oh and thanks for the recomendations on the water changes. It has brought the nitrate levels down immensly.

I do not see any signs of dropsy in that fish. He does not appear to be very happy, though.

Nitrates have an insidious way of affecting a fish. Even after you have brought them down, it can take week/months for a fish to recover. Some fish, because of past exposure to nitrites and ammonia and some parastical infestations, have lifelong compromised gills. These fish can be ultra sensitive to nitrates - and even "ordinary" nitrate levels may prove problematic for them.

I would strive to keep your nitrates under 20ppm.... and zero/zero on the ammonia/nitrite. Then, feed him VERY lightly - heavy on the greens - for a few weeks - and see if he does not stabilize a bit more.

Some fish have stabilization difficulties stemming from bacterial or parasitic (or both) problems. You will need to determine if you are looking at that sort of problem.

So many fish problems are "stacked" - nitrates causing lowered immunities - and parasites attack, leaving a fish open to bacterial infection, which causes still lower immunities and the fish will succumb to all the problems, combined. You need to peel back each layer of problem. As you solve one, you may discover an underlying cause that you can then address.

HAve a close watch on your fish - is he perhaps "tipping" as he tries to rub his back on the gravel or deco? Could he be "flashing"?

STart with the nitrates and water parameters. That is usually the begining and most important layer of all - the water is sooooo much more important than most anything else. With good water, a fish can withstand a whole lot of other problems until you can solve them. With poor water, no amount of treatment of the other problems will help the fish.

You have done well to address the nitrates as you have. That is a great first step. I would try the light feeding, perhaps some fasting and observe for a while.