Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5
Ph 7.3
Ph out of tap 7.4
Tank size - 1 55 gal with 2 4" orandas, 1 55 gal with 3 3" orandas and 1 10 gal with 2 1" telescopes - in effect all have been running 1 year (I ran the filters two filters on one 55 gal then split up when I added a new tank and added two new filters)
Filters - two Emperor 400s on each of the 55 gal, a Peguin 100 on the 10gal
I change the water once a week - anywhere between 50-75%
Additives- Prime
I purchased all of the fish at the same time about a year ago from the same small outdoor pond
I feed Goldfish Connection Pro Gold, freeze dried bloodworms, spirulina, peas - the dried foods I soak for 20 to 30 minutes before feeding

I have any numerous problems with my goldfish the past year since I purchased from a dealer who had them all in a large outdoor pond together. The list of medicants I have tried over the course of a year is: Maracyn, Marcyn 2, Prazi-Q, Parasite Clear, Clout, Salt, Medi-Gold and Medi-Worm. I bought a microscope and have done numerous scrapes looking for parasites and found none. I have not had any medicants in the water since May but recently tried another two week cycle of Medi-Gold.

These were my first goldfish. Looking back there were some indications that I should have bought from another breeder. He kept all of the fish in a large plastic pond outside. One of the fish was huge, about 6 or 8" and had massive ulcers on it's body.

The problems have occured in basically the same scenario for each fish that I have lost. First the fish seems lethargic when it is not feeding. Second seems to spend an inordinate amount of time in bubbles from the aerator. Eyes that seem to mildly protrude, not enough to be called bulging. Fourth they develop swim bladder problems and float upside down at the surface. More recently, two of them are losing scales. The gills of all of them appear normal and healthy.

The most recent victim has taken to shoving himself between the intake tube and the side of the tank when he was not actively feeding. About two days ago he developed severe floating issues and has been upside down now since then until his back has taken on a mild reverse curvature. I have tried holding him up to eat and he has taken a few bites. When I check his gills they have normal color and ribbing but don't appear to be fanning out as usual. His abdomen is soft and mushy. He has one red vein showing in his tail (he is a white fish, however). He has lost quite a few scales. He is very aware of his surroundings and follows everyone in the room with his eyes but has absolutely no control to swim or right himself. I purchased a bottle of clove oil but I am just so upset - I want to make sure that I am making the right decision; he is just so cognizant of everything but looks so helpless! Help! When a fish is upside down and just spinning in the current is there any hope? I was able to get him to eat a pea tonight but it is all that he has eaten in two days.

I have asked for help for various fish in the past but have never been able to come to any real definitive answer and the fish in question at the time have all passed away, one at a time. Could I possibly have tuberculosis? Any suggestions?

I have a video of my lemon-head behind the air intake from about three days ago and photos of the eye area of the lemon-head and two others. I think that they should be linked here - the files were too big to
attach. I hope this works...

http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb217/t...71105221217.flv

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Traeanne, your fish sure went through a lot, and you have tried almost everyting available for their treatment.

Have you done a gill scraping too? I checked out the Puregold website, since its an excellent place to look for diseases by symptoms, and JoAnn and Ingrid (the owner of the website) had the following posted when I searched for "losing scales" ...

"Myxosporidiosis is a generic term for protozoan infections like Henneguya (looks like happy face in a microscope). It is one of several protozoans that attack the gills. In good water with good aeration, it does not cause high mortality. It looks like a white cyst in the gills.

The only treatment is supplemental aeration (according to Stoskopf) and using a "flushing" system. According to the Goldfish Guru, formaldehyde is put into a vat in higher concentrations. Then water is dripped in constantly to flush the medication out and with it the dead or dying bugs. This way as they
hatch out, they cant re-infect. Symptoms of myxos is fish at the surface acting like they cant get enough air. Gills are pale. In later stages some protozoans cause the gills to look like raw hamburger. This is from when they rupture and exit the cysts."

You don't see anything cyst like in the gills, do you? The goldfish guru mentioned there is JoAnn Burke, one of the brilliant people when it comes to goldfish diseases. Have you noticed any change in gill color or consistancy during the progress of the illness?

I'll go ask her about the possibility of TB...

Oh, and did you quarantine/do a scrape on the fish that you got from the outdoor pond?

All of the fish came from an outdoor "pond" - really just one of the large plastic pools without any plants but still outside. I have not seen anything cyst like in their gills but they do look a little pale. I will try to get a photo and add more aeration tonight. The photos of their eyes appear that they have fluid behind them, don't you think? I was surprised to see the photos - they don't look as bad in real life but still not good to me and the photos seem to confirm that they have some fluid retention.

I am on my way to work but will check out that website tonight. I certainly don't want to put my him down if there is any possibility of recovery.

Thank you, Traeanne

Hi Treanne. I'm sorry about your fish. I have just been reading about fish Tb or fish tank granuloma and it seems fish with it are very emaciated which your fish don't seem to be in the pics. I also read that the fish will have ulcers and some skin sores. The ingredient Minocyline in Mardel's Maracyn 2 is supposed to be able to treat fish tank granuloma but you tried that I see.

I tried Maracyn 2 in February and have not introduced any new fish since then. I looked at different postings on the web and it is a possibility. I have never seen anything shaped like a happy face in the microscope but I only have an entry level microscope. Can you see fluid retention behind the eyes in the photos? The lemon-head's stomach is very mushy which I read is indicative of a bacterial infection.

I am adding more aeration and doing a water change now. I am worried about my lemon-head, though, that had been upside down now for three days - his spine is taking on a reverse curvature. I have been holding him upright to feed him. I don't understand the instructions with the formaldehyde or where to buy formaldehyde. How long can he live upside down? Is it inhumane to keep looking for answers when he is suffering? I don't want to give up but I don't want him to suffer either - it would be so much easier if he didn't look so alert.

What should I do next? Any suggestions? Thank you again for all of your support.

I have taken a couple of more pictures so you can see the gills, the swollen abdomen and the spine starting to curve upwards. I also took one looking down on the fish, he seems to have a darker streak on his abdomen.

I did a 60% water change and added more aeration. I have him in my 10gal hospital tank. I have hand fed him half a pea yesterday evening and this morning. Should I try Medi-gold or Med- worm again or stick with Pro-gold?

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Traeanne Ranchu-girl hasn't been back on. I know you are waiting for a reply.

With any severe internal bacterial infection you really need to be feeding medicated food. If you have Medigold it is a powerful antibacterial medication that goes straight to the problem area and I think you should get all the fish started on it right away without delay, if they are still eating. The fluid retention in the eyes might also be treated with epsom salts in the water.

I have had them on Medigold twice for two weeks each time and they seemed more floaty, even with soaking for 1/2 hour. I have read that if it is severe you need to feed for a month but have been afraid to try it that long. I did put 1/4 tsp of epsom salts in the 10gal hospital tank last night. Is it ok to try to feed him a crystal of it as well or is that too much? I have been feeding the lemon-head in the hospital tank just peas for about three days now. Do you think I should switch back to Medigold or mix the Medigold with a pea?

Thank you for your help.

He is floating on his side now with his tail hanging down. I have read that after they U there is no chance left. I guess that I am just going to have to put him down, I can't figure out how to make him better.

I am so sorry It makes us feel so helpless. I too lost a fish to mushy adomen -severe bacterial infection -and in those days had no access to medicated food. Even if you have to make a paste and try and forcefeed I think getting meds inside would be best. I know thats stressful for both of you though if hes not eating well. I dont know that its possible to get enough meds into a pea to do it that way.

Looking at the pics of your fishes gills they look so bright blood red and all the filaments look perfectly alligned with no sign of tears or bundling up. That is a good sign and makes me wonder that if the gills are working well, water born meds might be worth another last shot. The bent spine may be caused by organ failure resulting in edema in the viseral cavity which can pressurise and misalign the spine- also would explain the floating if the airsacs are displaced or pressurised. Unless the responsible bacteria are eliminated that isn't an easy one to fix.

How old is the medigold that you have? It doesn't stay effective very long after opening I suppose you know that. If you can't get medigold into the fish and you cannot consider antibiotic vet injections then I would go back to an antibiotic water born treatment like kanamycin (Seachem does Kanaplex which is 40% kanamycin sulfate -a good strong strength) or minocycline (maracyn2).

He did not make it through the night - it is so hard to bury a pet.

I do not want to loose any more to this problem. At the moment none of the others are showing any severe symptoms but I am sure that they are all infected - they came from the same pond over a year ago and I frequently move them around the tanks. I had moved my two tiny guys out of the 10 gal so I could raise the heat for my lemon-head. Should I disinfect the 10 gal before I move them back or does it matter since they have all been together for so long? I guess I am looking at another round of Maracyn, Maracyn II and Medigold or do you think another medication would be better?

Traeanne, I have asked about the TB, but like Trinket mentioned, I got the same answer - that your fish have different symptoms, not associated with TB.

I can see, especially on the 2. picture, that the poor thing has some fluid retention, and although he didn't make it, it is still a possibility that the other fish have something too.
I'd definitely go with a severe bacterial infection, and I always had much better success with Metromed instead of the Medigolds. It is a tad stronger, and has different antibacterial meds. I would go with the medicated food for a whole month - soaking is pretty useless, that stuff doesn't budge a bit, not even after prolonged soaking. I think its a pretty nifty mechanism to make sure the antibiotics do their work in the stomach - very slow disolving of the pellets guarantees effects on ALL the parts of the fish's intestines.

I have a ranchu with a belly you wouldn't believe - very swollen, and always mushy. At first I thought it was a female with eggs, but not so. I had him in a quarantine tank for a while to try and resolve it in there instead of the 160 gl rubbermaid pond outside, and when I put him back into the main pond, the first thing he did was chase after most of the other fish = male. He is back on his regular food now, together with his pond mates, and does not float upside down. His mushyness and size is still there, but I have begun to suspect why his size doesn't effect his buyoncy. There is a TON of alge on the walls, and I don't feed them more than once a day with some days without food. During that time, they all munch away on the algae, which is excellent food for keeping things moving in the digestive tract.

I also heard from JoAnne Burke that there are quite a few new strains of bacteria out there for which 100% effective treatment hasn't been found yet. Those new things have similar symptoms, and can easily be mistaken for a parasitic problem, or a simple bacterial issue. However, most common treatments haven't worked in the long run on those new bacterial problems, and some of the newly tried meds either don't have a high success rate or lousy side effects.

What I would wonder if a diet higher or completely based on plant material would have helped, or at least assisted in some of that floaty issue.

I have been wondering recently if a protein based diet is healthy. I was raised vegetarian - when I try to eat eggs or fish, I feel a little bloated also. How much worse would it be to have a mostly protein based diet?? I have been looking at some of the gel food recipes for alternatives.

I am pretty sure that I have some Metromed in the fridge that is about 8 months old. Is it still effective if it has been kept cold? Would you suggest treating the tanks with medicants or just the medicated food? Epsom salts? Right now I have everyone (2 4", 2 3", 2 1") in the two barebottom 55 gals with 800gph filtration on each, temp 74, pH 7.1, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5, weekly 50 to 75%.

Sorry about all of the questions. It seems like many symptoms are caused by multiple problems and the more I research on the internet, the more unsure I feel about what to do. Thank you again.

You are onto something with the idea that too much protein can cause problems - or rather too much of the wrong protein. When we look at what the fish would eat in the wild, we would find plant material mostly, as well as insects that have fallen into the pond, and such. Fish only need a higher protein food when they are fry,so they can grow nicely. And even then is a diet with too much protein at an early stage prone to later issues. There is protein in most plant material, as well as in the insects. Those artificially made higher protein foods don't neccessarily have the right kind of protein in them.

What personally makes me feel lousy after some meals is the combination of all 3 food groups - protein, veggies and carbs. I have experimented with it, and I don't have any discomfort at all if I just eat the veggies/salad with protein. If I add carbs to the mix, like noodles or rice, then my stomach feels much heavier for a longer period of time. When I substituted white noodles for whole wheat, it was somewhat better however. Again, I'd think that fish also depend on us for a higher quality food, just like we as humans profit greatly from it, especially in the long run.

Your other fish don't have any symptoms for now, right? If it is just as a precaution, I would just go with the food. You don't need epsom salt now, unless you have a dropsied fish at your hands at the moment. If you still have fish now that float occassionally, I would supplement their diet with more plant material, like algae (wafers or naturally growing on the glass), even plants from the aquarium store, or peas. Stick a epsom salt crystal into a whole petite pea and feed that as well every now and then.

I'm so sorry about your lemonhead Traeanne I wish the other fish recover for you. A different diet is always worth looking into with any floatiness- garlic is a great internal cleanser and can be added to gelfood.