I suddenly have a small amount of ammonia in my tank after a water change. My tap ammonia is 0, and I usually never have ammonia in my tank. The only thing that I can think of is that I used a little more prime than usual. Is prime known to cause a false ammonia reading?

What type of test kits are you using? Is it the ammonia kit with two bottles or only one bottle?

2 bottles

I'm glad you asked this, Grain. I, too, have been using a little extra prime in my tank while I am cycling it. Saturday, I did a 90% water change in my tank. I mean, there was barely enough water for the fish to swim in after I got finished taking the old water out.
I filled up my 5g bucket several times, and I have been doubling up on the Prime. After I was finished, I told my hubby that I was sure there was no ammonia in the tank (before I started, the ammonia was only at .25) and I tested the water. There was ammonia in there! I have no ammonia from my tap, either, as I checked that, as well. It is very strange...

check the expiary date on ur testkit, I too had that problem but realized something was seriously messed up with my teskit cause when I got a new one it gave me 0 every time! I've never had this happen, maybe theres some in the tank that the prime converted into a harmless form, it might still show up on the teskit, althoguh Nickie, after a 90% waterchange there should be very little left

I agree. I just got my test kit right before I set up my tank, about two weeks ago. Where do you find the exp. date on them?

API testkits dont have one, I bopught mine brand new too and it was expired, on the bottom it'll usually say when its made, if its more than 2 or 3 years old then that might be a problem, mine was made in 2003!

I'm having this problem too. Have zero ammonia in the tank. Do a water change with prime and I have 0.25 ammonia.I think with Prime you can't test the water right away
you need to give it a few hours.

Well, I have looked and I can't find an exp. date on my API test kit at all.

well if your tap water has zero with your kit, and your tank water has 0.25. Then your kit must be working ok.

Wow, thats an interesting question as I have had the same experience! I had .25 ammonia before I did a 50% water change yesterday, and still showed up with .25 after adding a double dose of Prime. I just got disgusted and figured that the test was reading wrong when I did a 25% on my tropical tank which never shows ammonia and got the same reading. I can't find an expi date on my API kit, but I haven't had it very long. Of course, that doesn't mean it wasn't old when I bought it. All the fish in both tanks seem fine, so I guess I won't worry about it. I'll get another test kit this weekend and see how it is.

The Seachem website, if I remember right, addresses that issue.

Remember that chloramine minus chlorine equals ammonia. So when the Prime releases the chlorine the ammonia remains behind and gives you a reading.

If you can get a Seachem multi-active test kit, this is a gas exchange based reading and it will give you a true reading and distinguish between any dangerous free ammonia and the ionized (or bound harmless) ammonia.

Salicylate type test kits (API two bottle test) will give you an accurate reading if it is taken shortly after using Prime (5 mins). This will give you a total ammonia reading. Providing the reading is moderate, eg. under 2.5ppm (imo) then it can be assumed that the ammonia is ionized and harmless by the Prime. If you get a radically high reading then it must be assumed that some of that ammonia is free and dangerous, so do another dose or two of Prime to be sure, to be sure.

Nessler type test kits (API single bottle test) will not give an accurate reading at all, they go a muddy brown colour and do not register with the scale.

ok, thank you! I was getting a reading of about .25 using the api test.

I just got prime the other day. I was wondering do I add the amount of the water i put back in or do i add to the size of the tanks?

When you change your water, you need to add the amount of Prime to the water you add back in. So if you add 10gals back in, you need to add the amount of prime to treat 10gals.

I just found this forum on here saying i should add to the amount of tank. Didn't know which to go by was gonna do a water change pretty soon.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=35031

If you treat the new tap water before you add it to the tank (ie. in buckets), then you don't need to treat the rest of the tank.

If you are adding the tap water directly into the tank before it has been treated with Prime then it probably is a good idea to treat the whole tank to be sure, to be sure. Although some members here never treat the whole tank and have never had a problem, so it's up to you which you prefer to do.

I saw those the other day on the seachem website. Are they expensive? If so, do they last a long time for the money spent?

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage...ts_seachem.html

I don't know of anyone who has had experience with this product but apparently you use different amounts of the product for each different test, eg. free ammonia, total ammonia, etc. So I guess it would be difficult to say how many tests this kit will do.

Fishmerized already posted part of this, but here is a little more info in full context: (referring to the Seachem's Ammonia test kit)

This kit is based on the same gas exchange technology that is used in the Ammonia Alert and thus is the only kit on the market that can read levels of free ammonia while using ammonia removal products such as Prime, Safe, AmGuard and any similar competing products. The other kits (salicylate or Nessler based) determine the total ammonia by raising the pH of the test solution to 12 or greater. At this high pH all ammonia removal products will breakdown and rerelease the ammonia, thus giving you a false ammonia reading.

Looks like it uses powder instead of liquid form, so maybe there is more product. I'd like to see more reviews before I try it though. Some people don't like the difficulty of having to mix the powder into the water.

Here it is:

http://seachem.com/support/FAQs/Prime_faq.html

Ok guys I did some testing.

My tap water has chloramines in it. Straight out of the tap my readings are amm 0.5/ nitrites 0/ nitrates 0/ ph 8.2
Everytime I do a water change I am getting an ammonia reading of 0.25 to 0.5 with Prime. When I have zero in the
tank before the change. I am testing immediately. I've been taking about 15 to 18 gallons and putting it back and I am
using 2 cap fulls which I put in the first bucket of water I pour in. My tank is 29 gallons.

So I did some experimenting, and this is what I found with MY water.
I took one gallon of water from my tap added 10 drops and tested. Then I added increments of 5 more drops and kept testing till I had zero ammonia.
To one gallon of water, it takes 30 drops of prime to break the bind of chloramine that is in my water and have ZERO ammonia.
30 drops is = 1/4 teaspoon
1 teaspoon will do 4 gallons
1 tablespoon will do 12 gallons
(1/4 teaspoon x 4 = 1 teaspoon, 1 teaspoon x 3 = 1 tablespoon)
I believe 1 teaspoon is 5 ml.
If this is true, one tablespoon is approximately 15ml. So it takes 15 ml, (3 capfuls) for 12 gallons. A far cry from 10ml per 50 gallons .

My conclusion: When dealing with Chloramines, Prime is not so concentrate.

I'm not so sure I understand what you mean. "It takes 30 drops of Prime to break the bind of chloramine that is in my water and have ZERO ammonia."

I can only imagine that 30 drops Prime in 1 gallon of water has somehow messed up your test kit results, it is 15 times the recommended dosage. When Prime breaks the bonds of chloramine, ammonia is supposed to be left behind. Chloramine minus chlorine = ammonia.

If it says it removes chloramines then it should remove chlorine and ammonia, it breaks the bond and should remove both. If it leaves ammonia behind in your system then you will end up with more nitrates. Which means more water changing. Who wants that? Ultimately its not removing the chloramine in my water at their recommended dose. False advertising. But with my water test it takes 1 teaspoon per gallon to get no ammonia reading. I use the API 2 bottle test.
Personally if I am changing my water out, I want no ammonia reading, doesn't matter if they say it's harmless ammonia.

I tried to add to my last post but it the board would not let me. On the Bottle of Prime it says when removing chloramines double the dose. which 5 ml (the cap) is supposed to take care of 25 gallons. It's actually 3 times the recommended dose for chloramines, not 15.
Actually when I'm done with this bottle of Prime. I will probably go back to aqua plus by hagen it removes chloramine at their recommended dose. All of it chlorine and ammonia.

Quote from the FAQ section of the hagen website. (UK)

"The product - Aqua Plus - gets rid of chlorine (and chloramine) as a function of its purpose. It will not remove ammonia as part of the operation, but then, neither does Stress Coat. There is no real difference here, since you simply cannot remove more than 100% of the compound."

This is very curious, what happens to the ammonia remaining from the breakdown of chloramines? I have requested more information from hagen.

http://www.hagen.com

Great!

I have the same problem with Aquasafe by Tetra. Need to use more product then it says to get zero ammonia reading.

I do nails for a living and I deal with chemicals all day long. I have alot of patience for technical stuff.
If this fish stuff is anything like what goes on in the nail industry, I wonder if alot of these products are the same thing
maybe with one different ingredient and a different label.
With nail products there are thousands that claim to be manufacters. But in reality, there are three or four places that
are true laboratories that actually manufacture product. Example: Dow Chemical, Keystone Laboratories, Eschem Labs.
Everyone in the industry buys from them. If they get a break through, it's available to everyone.
Chemically it's the same stuff, they just tweek their formulas so they are slightly different, like to dry faster or slower.

I went to the Seachem website and I am going to get one of their ammonia test kits. It says it contains enough solution for 75 water tests. I am not sure how much it is, but I found a fish store about 40 mins away from me that sells it. I am going to call them today and ask how much it cost.

If you buy their kit, let us know your findings.

Will do!

Ditto.

I think you have a point, alot of the difference in many products is just in the packaging and marketing. lol

All the packaging for this fish stuff is cheap plastic bottles with sticker labels. Anyway today was my day off, so I decided to take a trip to Big Al's to look for some
new plants, and on their clearance table what do I see....... Seachem Multi Test Ammonia (Free and Total) must be real popular
It was 50% off, so I got it for 7 dollars and some change. I smell another Science project under way
By the way this is a one bottle test and some sort of reusable paper punches.

I have a question. I always thought that in order for the BB in the tank to survive, there has to be something for them to feed off of. Ammonia=nitrites=nitrates. Shouldn't there be some trace of one of these components in the tank in order to have a "cycle"? I mean, I know in a cycled tank, there should always be a trace of nitrates, but doesn't the BB turn the ammonia and nitrites into nitrates when it feeds off of it? Therefore, don't they (BB) always need a small supply of ammonia in the tank?
I always thought that was what Prime meant by leaving detoxified ammonia in the tank. I thought this was for the BB to eat so you will not get a bump in the cycle??? I am confused...

You have your fish making ammonia evertime you feed them.
I expect Prime to remove the chloramine (Chlorine and Ammonia) in the new water.
If you have no fish in your tank and you are not feeding ammonia into the tank you will not have a cycle.

Dear Annette,

There is no attempt to remove or neutralize ammonia with Aqua-Plus. The

only time this becomes an issue is when the water from the tap is
treated with chloramine instead of chlorine. When that occurs, a double
dose of Aqua-Plus is used to break the chlorine-ammonia bond and does
release a small amount of ammonia into the water. In a fully matured
aquarium, the amount of ammonia released in this way is basically
negligible and should be removed immediately through the action of a
healthy biological filter. Remember, the amount of water being treated
should be, in most cases, no more than about 20% on a standard water
change. This means that the source if ammonia is not that large and a
strong population of nitrosomonas should deal with the compound safely
and naturally without resorting to chemicals which can cause other
problems in the tank. When a tank is having problems with the nitrogen
cycle, some ammonia may present a problem, but standard weekly addition
of Cycle on a regular and ongoing basis will establish and maintain the
bacteria that will help eliminate any ammonia released by the breaking
of chloramine to its original ingredients as well as help when the
actual water supply is adding ammonia and nitrite as well.

Best Regards,

Steve Pond
Customer Service Manager
Rolf

Kittyfiends, it appears that Aqua-Plus requires a double dose to break down chloramines and does not remove or bind ammonia in any way. As Steve said, in an established tank doing only small water changes, the residual ammonia would be insignificant.

Nickie, yep ionized ammonia is available for the BB to eat, once that is all gone the fish waste producing ammonia will keep the cycle going. The reason we get zero/zero readings for ammonia/nitrIte in a cycled tank is that it is all so perfectly balanced, the ammonia is being converted into nitrItes almost instantaneously and the same for the nitrItes into nitrAtes. This is because there is an abundance of BB to cope with the load.

Basically, the main points of Prime and Aqua-Plus concerning the chloramines and ammonia is that they both require a double dose, both will leave behind residual ammonia. Prime will bind or ionize the ammonia whereas Aqua-Plus will leave it free. I do not believe there are any water conditioners available that will remove chloramine AND ammonia.

This is such a fascinating thread! I can't believe that Mr. Pond ( nice name for someone working with aquatic products!!) got back to you so quickly!
I have really learned a lot from all of this!

Debbie

Me, too, Debbie!!!

I'm with Debbie and Nickie. I learn something new on this forum almost every day. Its just fascinating!

Hee hee, poor Steve. Fancy having a surname like Pond and working in the aquarium industry, I bet people comment on it all the time.

That's just as bad as this manicurist I know who's last name is "Hand"