I was doing my waterchange today and noticed that my oranda, Ziggy, is starting to pinecone on the front of his body right behind the gills. It's very subtle right now and I wouldn't have even noticed it if I hadn't been looking down from the top during the wc. Some background on him is that he's always had swimbladder problems. He's pretty much either at the top or the bottom so I haven't noticed any behavior different from normal. I've been able to semi-control his sb problems by feeding gel food and not pellets(any kind of pellet even progold puts him upside down at the top permanently). I've set up a 20g hospital tank with a heater and a penguin 170. I seeded the filter with one of the blue pads that I yanked out of one of my filters on the main tank and the carbon was removed a long time ago and replaced with bio-media so hopefully that will suffice to keep the params in check. Here's all the info for the main tank:

Ammonia Level? between 0 and .25.... like I said I *just* did a water change and my tapwater has an ammonia reading of .5 so this is why there is ammonia showing up. I double up on prime every w/c to counter it and it'll be filtered out pretty quickly.

Nitrite Level? 0

Nitrate level? 5

Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)? 8.4, 7.9 out of the tap(I age the water to bring it up) kh and gh are both high

Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? 46g and has been up and running for at least a year.... filters have been running for longer though

What is the name and size of the filter/s? penguin 350 and penguin 100 for 450 gph I'd like to upgrade the 100 to a 170 but the 170 won't fit in the hood holes

How often do you change the water and how much? weekly 30-40%

How many fish in the tank and their size? 3 fish 4", 3", 3" not including tails

What kind of water additives or conditioners? prime

Any medications added to the tank? no

Add any new fish to the tank? no

What do you feed your fish? gel food, bloodworms, peas, variety of other fresh stuff

Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt" bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? no just the raised scales on ziggy

Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, ect..? bottom-sitting is pretty much the norm for ziggy, but other than that he's acting normally and up and swimming at dinner time and eating like a pig

I have some metromed leftover from about 8 months ago. I've kept it in the fridge to preserve it, but I know it has a short lifespan. Should I start him on that anyway and then order some new or do you think the old stuff is okay or should I wait until I can get a new batch shipped? Also, I have maracyn plus and epsom salt to add to the water. Do you guys have any other suggestions? Ziggy has always had problems so I know, sadly, that this might just be his time but I am certainly going to try my hardest to save him.

I copied this from the disease column for dropsy:

Treatment:Remove affected fish to hospital tank and maintain perfect water quality. Use a broad-spectrum antibiotic medication (e.g. Maracyn 2 or Medigold in US, Myxazin in UK). A low level (.1 - .3%) salt solution may help (Epsom Salts can also be used). Keep temperature of the tank consistently at 78 -80F. Feed highly nutritious and good quality food, such as krill. Also Medicated foods such as Metro-Med and Medi-Gold are need to help the fish killing it from the inside.

Precautions:Antibiotic medications affect the cycle so monitoring water quality during treatment is essential. Dropsy is notoriously hard to treat; the mortality rate for fish with dropsy is high. If fish recover, maintain their tank temperature in the high 70's consistently afterwards as dropping temperatures may trigger dropsy again.

I am not very skilled in dropsy and there are others here who have saved their fish from dieing from it. I hope this helps some! A mod will be along soon to help more! Hang in there!!!

Thanks Nickie I left the hospital tank running for a couple of hours to match the ph and then moved Ziggy over. I also added 1/2 tsp of epsom salt and the maracyn plus and have turned the heater up a little to slowly raise the temp. I haven't seen him poo but I did find a long white one when I was vacuuming their tank. It was only the one though and there were a bunch of normal poos in the corner that Ziggy likes to sit in. Hopefully that's a good sign, but who knows if they're his. My fish seem very modest actually and I rarely catch them doing their business. This sucks because I just got a new fish for my tropical tank earlier and I was all excited and then the business with Ziggy happened and now I'm worried and depressed. It doesn't help that my ph is naturally so high and any kind of bump in the cycle can be deadly so medicating with antibiotics is always terrifying and my stupid tap water has ammonia

I'm not sure why a mod has not been here yet. I will try to PM Alistairw if you are gonna be on for a few more mins? He had a fish w/ dropsy and knows some about treating them.

Thanks again I don't know how much longer I'll be able to stay up. We had bad storms last night that kept me awake and now I'm falling asleep at the keyboard! His pineconing is still very very subtle and not noticeable unless he's holding still and you're viewing him from the top. I also added an airstone to help oxygenate the water since I'm going to be raising the temperature. The hospital tank is barebottom and he keeps trying to eat his reflection in the bottom of it

Well, you just hang in there! I made a mistake before as it was not Alistairw who had a fish w/ dropsy, it was Jackofhearts! Sorry! I know that a mod will come on soon to help you! If you need to sign off, just check back tomorrow!

hey imber, sorry to hear about your fish. hopefully a mod will be along soon to help you. in the meantime i did a bit of searching and dropsy seems to have a standard procedure for treatment and is as follows -
DROPSY TREATMENT: If dropsy is caught very early, then it may respond to the following treatment. Goldfish tend to respond more than any other type of fish.
1. Test your water parameters (pH, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates) and correct any abnormalities.

2. Romet B or Medi-Gold (antibiotic foods)* for two weeks (one that covers gram negative bacteria).

3. Maintaining the water at 84-86ºF (29-30ºC) for two weeks. Be sure to provide extra aeration/oxygenation when treating at these high temperatures because warmer water holds less oxygen. This can be done by adding an airstone.

4. Abdominal swelling might be lessened by adding Epsom salt at the rate of 1/8 teaspoon per every 5 gallons of water, as it will draw fluid out of your fish. Never use aquarium or other types of salt, as these may pull even more fluid inside of your fish, worsening the dropsy.

5. Always remove your fish with dropsy from the main tank and treat in a hospital tank.

6. Consider treating with RidIch+ or Maracide for external parasites, especially with goldfish.

*Use kanamycin (KanaPlex) or minocycline (Maracyn-Two) as a bath, if unable to find medicated food, for 10-14 days.

*The best antibiotic to use for prolonged immersion, which can only be obtained from your Vet, is tauted to be Augmentin (amoxicillin/clavulanic acid) 500 mg tablet crushed per every 10 gallons water after a 25% water change has been performed, daily for 10-14 days*.

this seems to be the best info i could find, have you looked at any of the threads in the emerg911 or diagnosis forums ? fingers crossed, hopefully ziggy will be ok. alistair

oh man your fish had dropsy, I have fishes with dropsy before but i only saved one using aquarium salt and melafix. Melafix is an antibacterial infection medication for fish.

Imber, does your fish have long stringy whitish kind of poo?

I have very little knowledge on dropsy, but it's best to treat at early stage before it get worse. I really hope your little fishy will be fine.

Thanks, Alistairw!!! I wonder why you can't use Aquarium salt for dropsy?

Thank you guys for more replies! I just checked in on him and he's still exploring the new(completely bare) tank. He's easily amused. There are no signs of poo so I still can't confirm what it looks like. He did have peas earlier so hopefully I'll find something green. I had maracyn 1 but not 2 on hand, but opted to go with maracyn plus because it's by the same company and says it treats dropsy. Oh and medigold is the one that I want to treat with not metromed? I have that too and it's from may so it's only 5 months old and has been kept refrigerated. I think it should still be good. I actually have had fish with dropsy before, but it's either been in old bettas that just seemed to have organ failure due to old age, or in my ranchu who was just messing with me. She dropsied and lost all of her color so I freaked out and hospitalized her, started her on antibiotics and ordered medicated food and then the next day her scales had gone down and her color was back to normal. She's still perfectly fine and hasn't had any relapses. I think she was just testing how much I really loved her and how much $$ she could make me spend.

As far as Medigold or Metromed, I am not sure, so I would not use either until a mod can let you know.

um you know I use this type of salt using for disease treatment i forgot, i dont know if it's aquarium salt or not maybe it was actualy epsom salt, it was for my guppies, it works, but i am not sure, i wonder if it was the melafix that work or is it the salt lol.

alistairw might be right that aquarium salt might make it worse.

i have read that some people do use aquarium salt alongside the medication to treat dropsy. a 1.0% salt bath can be helpful to restart osmotic process in case of dropsy/bloating, this will also kill some of the parasites and control (not cure) bacteria. although i would want a mod to confirm this before i ever did it.

I have heard that, salt bath, I have use salt, it's either aquarium salt or epsom salt, i have no idea anymore, it was a while back, i use it with melafix.

But yeah, dont do anything until mod comfirm this method that it's safe.

Oh hey imber, would you mind postign a photo?

I decided to put Ziggy to bed so he can get some rest. I did manage to snap a few not very good pictures before my camera died. Here's the best I could get.

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i agree, any advice given to you by other members (including my 2 previous posts) with reference to treatment of your fish should be confirmed by one of the mods on here first.

Ok guys I need to go to bed. Thanks so much for the help! I'll check back in tomorrow morning and give updates.

Here's the morning update: No change in Ziggy visibly. He still swims a bit and bottom sits a bit like his normal self. His fins aren't clamped. I couldn't find any poo in the tank though! Either the filter got it or *cringe* he recycled it. The temp was 78 because I wasn't sure how high to turn the heater and I didn't want him to cook overnight. I've turned it up now that I can watch it. The water stats were 0/0/5 so it looks like using that old filter insert is doing the trick. When I added the water it had .5 ammonia from the tap so it definitely converted all of that over.

Imber have you started any medication yet? How long have you had those metromeds in the fridge? They are excellent for dropsy with the epsom salt (1/8th of a teaspoon to 5 gallons not any other salt).

Hi Trinket! Thanks for the reply. I added 1/2 tsp of epsom salt last night and the appropriate maracyn plus for 20g. The metromeds are probably about 8 months old and have been kept in the fridge for the majority of that time.

Ziggy is still acting the same. The temperature is up to 80 now. I did see a couple of small pea colored green poos in with him, but they disappeared after I left the room No stringy white poo to be found. I haven't fed him yet today because I'm not sure where I should start him on my old metro meds or feed him peas to clean out his system until I can get new metro meds or to give him medigold until I can get new metromeds? I wish he could tell me what's wrong. I don't know of any fish vets in my area either so that's out.

Hi Imber!
Nice to see another Hoosier on the forum...when you said something about storms, I KNEW you had to be from Indiana, lol! The storms were rockin' almost the whole state the other night!

How is Ziggy today? Be sure and keep posting so they can help you get him medicated and get through the procedures for dropsy. I believe its pretty serious and I wish you good luck!

Hi there - I had a thread almost the same as yours - which you can find in D&D 'Oh no, Ziggy is starting to pincone!'
I added epsom immediately and fed MMeds which seem to be more successful than MediGold for beginning dropsy. And I also raised the temps.
I'm not sure if the 8 month-old meds would still be effective or not - could you try emailing Rick at the GFish Connection? I'm sure you'd get a definitive judgement from him.
The good news is, that he hasn't fully blown and seems fairly stable.
Hope things improve,
Pixie

Hi there Vickie! Nice to see another hoosier! How bad did it storm where you are? We got lucky and just mostly got edges of storms, but the wind kept blowing and rattling stuff and kept waking me up.

That sucks that both of our Ziggies started to pinecone, Pixie. How is your Ziggy doing? How did you get his name? Mine has different colored eyes like David Bowie so he got his name from Ziggy Stardust. I ordered a fresh batch of metromeds just to be safe and will start him on that as soon as it comes in. This time I'm writing the date on it so I know how many months old it is. It's probably worth it just to get a new container every 6 months just in case of emergencies. My Ziggy is still pretty much normal. It almost looks like his pineconing has decreased a little, but I'm not sure and don't want to get my hopes up. I'm pretty sure that it went down in the front though because it was pretty obvious up there when I noticed it but now I only see the little outline of his scales around the back through his abdomen. Hopefully the epsom salts are drawing the liquid out and that's what I'm noticing.

Glad to hear that the epsom is starting to work. Its good that you caught it early. Yeah, I caught the Ziggy Pineconing thread and it was like deja vu!

We got a lot of wind and lightning, but the worst parts of the storm were pretty close. We had tornado touchdowns in Brownstown, which is just a few miles from where I work. Its bad being in a severe storm like that at work at night.

A Hoosier and a Bowie fan too, huh? Pretty unusual for your age-I think thats great! Unfortunately (or fortunately, either way, lol) I was around when Ziggy was NEW, but I've never lost my love for Bowie or his style.

Good luck with Ziggy. I hope he improves quickly. BTW-is that your betta in the avatar? I just wondered...its a beautiful fish!

Hi Imber!
It is good to hear that Ziggy has improved somewhat. I hope he keeps improving! BTW, how could anyone NOT like David Bowie??? LOL!

Imber I'm glad you ordered the new metromeds as they do not keep effective as long as 8 months after opening I think.
I am sure they will help a lot. It's funny your fish being Ziggy too as I had deja-vu reading this thread - I was remembering Pixies thread and what worked for her. Good luck and fins crossed for your baby

Hey Imber- Glad things seem to be OK. You're doing everything needed and as he's already deflated a little, I'm sure he's on the mend.
My Ziggy seems fine. My daughter chose his name - not after Bowie, though. She just liked the name.

Trinket - can you remember what it was that RanchuG had mentioned to me about fish dropsying when the temps drop? I can't remember why that happens.

Ziggy seems to be doing well this morning. His pineconing is definitely going down and barely noticeable! The temps around 84 now so I wonder if that has something to do with it too. This can be moved out of emergency now since his case doesn't seem very urgent. I'll continue with his maracyn plus and give him the second dose tonight and will start him on the metromeds as soon as they get here. Again, thanks for all of the help and advice! I got a new picture this morning.

Before:

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Now:

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That is good to hear. Well done. I think you have to keep the temp warm after dropsy permanently or it will come back. Having dropsied once seems to make the fish sensitive to it happening again and warm temps help prevent that.

Ziggy doing okay these days, Imber?

Ziggy's still just fine, thanks for asking I can't see anymore evidence of pineconing and he's acting normal and eating like a pig. I got my new metromeds and am going to go ahead and finish out the two weeks of that and then as long as nothing else crops up he'll be moving back home in a couple of weeks. Thanks again to everybody that helped!

Great news.
My Ziggy is better too and is now almost completely orange! He started off black and has been changing since last year. Now he only has a black mohawk and a moustache!