Hello everyone... I am new to this forum and unfortunately, i am posting on this thread first. I have noticed my older lionhead Gerttie, is not eating, staying @ the top of the tank, with her back exposed to air. She isnot breating normally and noticed fungus on her little fins, the swimmers. I have also noticed her poop is just a tube of white w/nothing in it. This poop thing has been going on a while now but didn't pay attention because it was on and off. She went throu this before but recooped w/o treatment. I bought some penacyllin but did not treat yet. Can anyone help me?
Thanks again, and u will hear from me again!!!!!!

Hello lioness, and So sorry to hear you have a sick fish. Unfortunately, I'm fairly new here myself and wouldn't be much help to you, but I'm sure that a mod or someone will be along soon to help you. Its great that you posted your params and info, as that is an incredible help for them to help you.

They're great here, and hopefully they'll have you in good shape in short time.

Good luck!

Hi Lioness! Welcome to koko's from me too!

Your nitrates are a little high in the safe zone I'd keep a close eye on those and try to lower them. Thin white poo means a bacterial infection so if you have antibiotics I'd begin treatment. An anti-bac food would be ideal. Is there any way you can post pictures of the fungus you're talking about?

Hi Olivia and Vicki. Thanks for the warm welcome. I have been looking for a forum like this for a long time. If i would have found it sooner, I would have had 4 lionheads, but unfortunately, they have since gone. I don't want to loose this one, thats for sure!!!
Yes, I do have a digital but won't be able to do it now. Got to go somewhere. I will be back tonite tho. Talk to u then..
Eileen

I want to update. Right now, i see Gertti is doing better as far as her overall appearance. She still isn't eating and is @ the top of tank with her back exposed to the air. She is starting to dry up also. Should I qt her or treat the tank since its bacterial. I also think i don't have enough filtration there either. Would a magnum 350 w/biowheel enough for these guys or should I add more filtration. I no there is alot of brown algea on the glass and must clean all the time. Is that normal? I have gone thru this forever w/these guys. I donot have any food antibiotics. Besides, she is not eating much if any. I see feces as a clear tube w/nothing in it. Maybe she is backed up? I am at my witts end and like I said, I don't want to loose her. I have the other little guy in there too. His fins were doing the same thing. Kinda turning white and breaking off. They both look better tho. I will be doing a w/c today also. Should I add a little salt for now. I do not have a heater in the tank either. Help if u can....
Thanks
Eileen

Again, I noticed she is haveing a problem going to the bottom. When she gets there, she quickly floats back to the top. Could it be something else. Bloat maybe. I still see abnormal poop. The thing is there r 2 fish in this tank and i am not seeing normal poop at all. Any ideas? Please, i am baffled here.

I'm not sure if I can add too much but I'll try and help until someone more experienced at diagnosis and treatment comes along.

I agree with Olivia, first off try and get the tank nitrAtes right down, with an additional large water change. NitrAtes of 20 mg/l in itself is not always that bad, but if your fish is sick it may be a contributary factor and in any case low nitrAtes promote better recovery.

I'm not familiar with the filter you mentioned but our usual guideline here for goldifsh filtration is to allow at least 10 x's the tank turnover per hour, made up with one or more filters. So, we'd say for a 55 gallon tank you'll need a filtration rate of 550 gallons per hour. If your existing filter does less than that, an additional filter may be benficial - having said all of that, your tank is cycled and water chemistry good, but more water turnover is always beneficial with goldfish.

What is the tank temperature? A stable, unflutuating temperature will help to promote recovery and reduce stress.

Just to summarize, your fish has been floating to the top, pooping clear white poop, his fins (all, which ones?) have fungal growth and his back is becoming dried where it's exposed to the air?

When was the last "normal" poop you noticed? It's possible that it's constipation and this is affecting his swim bladder (this can be common in deep bodied fancies like lionheads) Usually, a starve of a few days followed by deshelled peas can help (so can warmer water) to clear things out. In stubborn cases an epsom slat crystil inside a pea can help to. If it's true swimbladder disease there will be a bacterial element to it to. In any case, the fungus sounds likely to be a seconday infection due to the stress and lower immunity.

These initial things may help - a large water change to get the nitrAtes right down (can be related to swim bladder problems in goldfish) (water changed should be dechlorinated, similar Ph and temp - I'm sure you know that though, so don't know why I typed it!)

You could try raising the temperature a few degrees (slowly) and adding additioning aeration/water movement to compensate.

Low dose salting of 0.1% may help to reduce stress and promote recovery - salt may also help to treat the fungus (salt dips can help with this too but your fish may be too stressed for that just yet).

Starve the fish for a few days followed by peas to try and clear things out. Or you can start her on peas today if she'll take them and then feed tomorrow and then starve.

If the white poop is more of a hollow, sausage skin type of thing it could be a "cast" which can indicate sever constipation. If it's a solid white poop it usually indicates a bacterial element and antibiotics or medicated food may help. I'd try the above first and see how that goes.

Hopefully, somebody can offer you some more advice soon

I don't think she needs too much more advice Mr B. You pretty much covered it all! This is why we love you here!

How is your baby doing today lioness?

Hi everyone. Yes, the poop is hollow tube. I kinda thought constipation when I saw she was having a hard time swimming down and then rapidly floating to the top. The other little guy is good, however was showing signs of fin loss. , meaning the ends of the tail and pectal fins were fraying and loose pcs were there. It now seems better. I also added carbon last time I cleaned the filter, which I will be eliminating next time. A 350 magnum is what it is. 350 phr. Not enough filtration. I am sure that is what is the problem with the fins. I didn't feed yesterday, fed a little peas today, don't see much eating going on, even w/ the little guy. I do not have a therm or a heater on or in this tank thinking it was ok. What is a good temp for these guys. I no they r cold water. OK, water temp 70, but might fall @ night sometimes. I would like to no if I should qt her and treat w/epsoms salt. What do u think mrbumblebee?

A stable temperature that doesn't fluctuate wildly is more important than any particular level. For aquarium goldfish, any thing from ambiant room temperature whatever that may be where you are in the world, say 68-70F upwards. There is some opinion that 72-74F is a good temperature for fancies, but many members keep them in warmer water again. A slight day/night time drop of temperature should not be too much of a problem and can be beneficial sme believe. A thermometer is a must, a heater-stat is handy for setting a minimum if temperatures fluctuate and invaluable for treatment pruposes, but not essential otherwise.

Warmer water may be helpful for getting poop moving if that is indeed the underlying problem - you need to exclude it in any case. Hopefully you an get some peas into them today. If she does improve with that alone, you'll then need to tackle the secondary symptoms like the fungus - the 0.1% aquarium salt will start to help for that and when she's well enough maybe a salt dip or a propietry medication for fungus may be needed, also medicated food may be helpful - but I'll let others advise on whether that's necessary.

Im not sure whether you need to qt as everything I mentioned so far would benefit both (large water change, warmer water, extra aeration, 0.1% aquarium salt, starve and pea regime). Epsom salt can help with dropsy symptoms, otherwise plain old aquaium salt is a better tonic in the tank for now - that's what the 0.1% should be. Does the bloatiness make you suspect dropsy, does she have any raised scales? If not, try to exclude constipation for the floatiness first - but monitor closely

"UPDATE" Just changed the filter to a fluval 404. Handles up to 90 gal tank. It has heavy flow tho. I want to get a spraybar and also put air in the tank. Her appearance is not an issue anymore except for her back. She does tend to swim irratically,(upside down, circles, stuff that is not the norm) but not continuosly. I did a big w/c and shut the lights for now. Hopefully, she will be better. The other little guy is fine. Pooping green peas. I think the filter change will bring a big diff. in appearance for these guys. Will post a pic also.

Yikes! When you say you just changed the filter - you didn't toss out the old one did you?
If you did, it will be seriously bad news as all your beneficial bacteria are in there and will have been tossed out too.. Without them the tank will have to begin cycling again.
Hopefully you've added the new fluval and kept the other one running while the new filter establishes.

No, not by any means. I had a fluval already cycled w/my 39gal. I just switched filters. There r no hazards, all is good. I will keep a close eye on it, u can count on it. Also, she is eating peas. I think the current may be good for her. Hope so. I do see raised scales aroung the abdomin. Hopefully, she will poop and things will be good:yeah:

The first thing I thought was underfiltrated. So good you now have those two filters running. It should help enormously. Unfortunately human eyes cannot see all the clouds of potentially dangerous bacteria floating by- that in an underfiltered tank- and with a fish weakened by sbd or other problems -can populate themselves to dangerous levels so incredibly fast.

If your fish is floaty and his dorsal is emerging from the top of the water he will easily get fungus growing there. You can apply a little vaseline carefully to help with this and if it gets worse (any blood marks)you can get hold of some topical ointment and use that. There is an antibiotic one called bio-bandage which is a derivative of neosporin which works well for fish. At least with that problem its
clear what the cause is.

You say the fish has raised scales now? So the excess bacteria have probably entered the fish and are causing damage inside which makes the fish floaty and needs treatment immediately. As Ryuu said you may need some antibiotic treatment but I'd start with some medicated antibiotic food and the new added filtration and extra water changes. Can you get Medigold or metromed food? Either would work for a severe bacterial problem, metromed also covers you for internal parasites and is a little stronger.

Otherwise as MrB says keep the temp stable and for floaty fish a little higher than your normal. Everything should be stable, pH and temp to keep stress minimal.

Thank u Trinket for ur advice. I have never seen those meds before, but i will go to my lfs today after work and see if they have this. I dont have both filters running, only the fluval. I had to switch filters. I want to put a spraybar on so the current is evenly distributed. What other filter do I need? When mrbumblebee says 0.01% salt, can anyone convert that for me. how many tbsps/gal is required for a 55gal? Forgive me, but I am not familiar w/that. I go by tbsps.... .
Got to go get ready for work, but will check on those meds and let u no. THANKS AGAIN!!!

OK strike that- I thought you had the 2 filters running. I think you should invest in another filter (HOB is good as a second) to get then recommended turnover as MrB says you need that 550 gph going to clear the bacteria load. You definitely need to get rid of the brown algae- it is harboring some of the bacteria that may well be responsible for this.

The salt will be a tonic at .1%. Thats 55 teaspoons or 18 tablespoons. It sounds like the other fish has a case of finrot so you can up that salt after 12 hours. After 12 hours you can increase it (another 18 tablespoons) to .2% and leave it there for another 12 hours. Then go up to the final .3% with another 18 tablespoons. That is rock, sea , kosher or pickling salt okay? No iodized or YPS or anticaking agents.

As Ryuu pointed out initially the bacteria needs dealing with and if he is not eating you had better go with atank med like Maracyn Plus. It can be run with the salt. Follow the directions exactly and dont forget to remove the carbon while medicating. Good luck and keep us posted

Quick update/ I have 840gal/hr of filtration. That should sufice i think. I started the salt regimen when I got home from the store. Had to buy the meds and salt. I could not find Maracyn Plus so I bought E.M. Erythromycin. It treats fin and tail rot, open red sores(which I noticed she does have ulcer type sores on her pectoral fins, and tail.)mouth fungus, hemerage septicema, and bacterial gill fungus. I hope that is good. I already added to the tank. I had to add 1000mgs. Please let me know if this is ok. If not , I will have to order online because I cannot find the Maracyn Plus.
Thanks
Eileen

Yes it should be fine. Erithromycin is a broad spectrum antibiotic so should work and can be used with the salt. Make sure you keep checking the water so no ammonia or nitrites interferes with the meds and follow the directions and dosage to the letter. You may want to keep the tank in dim light to de stress the fish while medicating..meds plus salt is a little more aggressive treatment than one med only so watch how the fish and your cycle go with both. You could prob stop at .2% salt and see how they are with that and the antibiotic treatment.

Hi Trinket. She is looking better. Not @ the top anymore. Her ulcers r better because she is using the one fin that she had a hard time using. The ammonia is up to .5 but everything else is good. Trates r @ 1. Should I keep up w/ the salt because of the amm. or not? Is the meds doing this to the water? I didn't have that before. Keep u posted:)

It may be the meds bumping the cycle. And they wont work so well with any ammonia. Best to get that out asap. I would carry on with the salting if you can manage the math, I know I can't always- what is taken out has to go back in so for example a 30% water change means total tbsp divided by 3 has to go back in.

The salt should be done slowly. BUt I think its important for the fins. The meds are harsh on split fins and any part of the fish missing slime coat or with impaired slime coat so I recommend you keep that in.

Good Morning to u Trinket, Yes, I do have amm. its up to 1 now. Unfortunately, I can't do anything until after work todayl. As soon as I get home, I will have to change water. I have an extra seeded sponge I can put in there when I am done medicating. Thats a plus anyway... Thanks for all ur help. That is from Gerttie and the little guy. Let u no how things r.
Thanks again'
Eileen

How is Gertie today, lioness?

Hi Vicki. Gerttie is doing great right now. I ran out of meds, waiting for the mail. Did a 25% w/c just now and the amm. is down to .25. I thinkd trinket was right tho about the filter. But like i said, i have a seeded sponge i can put in there when I am done medicating. Thanks for asking. We appreciate that....
Eileen

Well I'm glad there's no change for the worse...thats a good sign.

And Trinket gives great advice. The people on here really know what they're talking about, and have helped us newer members, and even are a great help to each other!

So glad you found the forum, and hope everything goes well!

Here is the latest w/Gerttie: Her overall appearance is better, butthis is the way she is. Can u tell if her scales r pinecone or not? Could there be something else wrong. She didn't go to the food, i had to put the food to her. That is where she stays. Sometimes she wanders but not too often. I did a 25% w/c yest. and didn't replenish any salt or meds, the ammonia was @ .5. Then when I came home I changed about 50% w/o replenishing. I wanted to talk to u guys first. Ammon is still up there. I still see some red ulcers on her back but not on her fins. Any ideas? She is eating pretty good. Can't seem to find the food tho. Maybe lathargic? Please, help Gertie!!!

Quick update. I since added 10tbsps of salt, and treated w/ maracyn plus. She seems better already. Still head pointed down, but seems to be swimming a little more. They were very hungry. Didn't feed for 2 days and they ate alot. Hope thats okay. Will watch for poop now from Gerttie. The little guy's poop is good. Keep the fingers crossed!!!

You are doing fine. Gertie is a nice fish btw. I hope we can help get her better fast. Do your level best to keep that ammonia at zero. The ammonia will be aggravating the red spots and fin damage and also that little curling pectoral fin. Keeping it at zero and sustaining that, means checking regularly and replacing meds, salt and water as needed making sure you keep track of it all. Its easiest if you write down what goes in and comes out of the tank every time. A medical log. As long as there is no ammonia in your tap water you should be able to manage the ammonia with water changes every day if needs be and the second seeded filter to bump back your cycle when done.

With a fish that has a lot of red and dark orange color like Gertie has its sometimes hard to see blood in the fins and so on but the position of the fish with her tilted down and the bottom sitting and lethargy says bacterial infection. I can't notice the scales pineconing yet but the very tip of the tail fins I can see have a chalky look at the edge. The Maracyn plus is very effective, acts fast and should start to help soon. You have to follow the directions exactly and remove any carbon (but the regular sponge etc is okay to leave)and keep it in the recommended time. If you cant manage the salt -it is tricky when you have ammonia and have to do lots of changes- I'd just keep going with the course of Maracyn for now.

Hi Trinket. So u r saying water changes and no salt? Just replace meds right? The thing is on the directions it states to treat day 1,3, and 5. I hope i have enough to replace. Its only an 8 oz bottle. BUT, on the other hand. I checked her this morning and guess what I see? POOP,POOP, and more POOPOO!!!!! I went in there and she saw me and she is swimming like she was before.
I think she is on the road to recovery. I am sooooo happy. I will keep u updated. Thank u soooo much for all ur help everyone:)

That's great!!!

I'd still do the 3 days Maracyn now you have started the course lioness. Just that and the water changes should be enough. Hope all continues to go well

Gertie is a beautiful fish, Eileen! Hope she gets better soon.

Here is a quick update. Gerttie is swimming around more. She is eating and in good spirits. BUT..... i notice she is having trouble swimming. She is again at the top of tank. She can't seem to stay @ the bottom or even get to the food to eat. The little guy eats 4-5 peas and doesn't give her a chance to eat. I am thinking of putting her by herself and observe more. I have fed nothing but peas and they r fine w/that but i want to give more a variety but afraid of problems. I like to feed black worms, fbw's, pellets, and i also put lettuce leafs in there for them to eat. I also see her upsidedown. She doesn't stay that way but I don't think this is normal. I also notice a problem w/her balance and equalibrium. She no's where the food is but can't seem to get it when she wants to. So, what do u think. I want to move her and monitor her for a few weeks. Any opinions?

Yes if you have another container 10 gallons or so I would move her Eileen. I'm sorry, this is sad. I was hoping for better news.You can try shallower water if she is experiencing balance problems. It is definitely easier to monitor her eating and condition if she is separated. Do you have another airstone to use? And heater if its cold where you are. Raising the temp slowly can help with floatiness.

Of course you'll have to be ready for daily water changes in an uncycled container.

If the ammonia is creeping still in the main tank she will do much better on her own in atub or tank where you can change out water daily.

Hi Trinket. Yes, I even have a 10gal seeded sponge. The water in the main tank is good. The amm is gone. I stuck a seeded sponge in there now for about a week. Water parms r good. Do u know what is happening to her? I hope she can recover. I just don't have luck w/these guys when the hit a certain age. I have had 2 die on me already @ this age. I don't want her to die too.

Most likely when a fish is head tipping there are usually one of two things going on. One is internal bacterial infection and the other is swimbladder problems. It's often difficult to distinguish one from the other because a bad bacterial infection can also make a fish floaty. It's easiest to diagnose with other symptoms present and also the order of what has happened. For example swimbladder disease (balance issues related to the swimbladder) the bottom sitting is often preceded by occasional flipover or listing to the side or swimming at the surface a lot. But an owner that doesnt/can't spend a lot of time watching their fish might miss those very early symptoms. Bacterial infection will often but by no means always present with small red spots/ulcers and always with lethargy.

So when there is definite confusion it may be wise to treat as if its an infection- which is what I think Gertie has anyway.

I am curious with Gertie about those small red spots you are seeing. Have you only noticed them since she became sick and have they got any better or worse?

Nutrition is important for both conditions. I'm inclined to feed smaller amounts rather than starving an sbd fish. Food should always be soaked first for sbd fish and sick fish. For all fish always most would say. But for an internal bac infection the best food is usually medicated. Is there anyway you could get hold of some medicated food- Medigold for example? I'm sorry I can't remember if you tried that. I think thats the next route here. With internal bacterial infections water borne meds are not always totally effective. With medicated food you can actually know that the food containing antibiotics is going straight to the problem inside. I really think that would help enourmously. Goldfish Connection can ship overnight and that stuff is magic. Failing that geltek products or Jungle do an antibac food both are good:



If you can get a course of these into her in the tub (the other fish won't need them) that would really help I feel sure. Be positive. She'll make it hun, you are doing your best and she seems a fighter .

Heres another update. I noticed a raised scale on Gerttie. It is devoloping white stringy deterioration around it. Here is a pic.


What does that mean??????

It could just be a scrape -+slime coat peel- it is quite hard to tell. It could also possibly be the beginning of some external columnaris type bacterial infection. That would fit with all the other symptoms actually. Can you get started on the med food Elaine- that is going to eliminate any nasties in her. Medigold or the Geltek onei n the picture 2 posts back or any kind of bacterial antibiotic food is your best tack here.

Is your pH still stable at 7.4?

I am pretty sure about the ph, but i will check when i get home today from work. Yes, i do have antibiotic food I will start feeding to her. Hope she eats it...

OK, just did a check on water parms. I still have amm. @ .5. Don't get that. TraTes r good @ 1, everything else is fine. It is not a scrape, its a raised scale that is starting to deteriorate. I just did a 55-60% w/c. Went 2 days. I did one on Sunday. Started bacterial food, the same as what u showed me. I have been feeding mostly peas but stopped and started the anti bacterial food. Yes, ph is 7.4 too. Guess i will just feed, test water and monitor w/ daily water changes. Its a bummer because i have a sick discus too. I am not a good fish keeper,

Don't worry he will get through it just takes time. You are a very good owner doing all you can!!!If the area is raised it may be the beginning of a bacterial ulcer in which case that medicated food is definitely your best line of defence. Those kind of ulcers appearing after bottom sitting usually mean theres bacterial infection inside the fish. That stuff is great. Feed ONLY that and make sure they get plenty/enough of it to work and complete the course.

And check your filter media. It may be time to throw half of the sponges. I don't know what kind of media you use.I have just done another tank. Every year or so I do that. I keep the side filters intact so as not to tip the bb balance too much and throw the really grey old disintegrating sponge media nd replace it. I also tossed some little ball media today because I couldn't gaurantee the maker had not put zeolite in them- claiming as they did to remove ammonia . Well those had been in there ages and I was getting slight ammonia (same as yours0.25, 0.5)this week in that tank so they have gone. Good riddance . Hello new clean white sponge and all the rest rinsed out. Hopefully my panda will now stop his periodic bottom sitting.

Hope your discus pulls through!Keep us posted

Hi all. Just a quick update. Gerttie and the little guy have been eating the antibiotic food foor 2.5 days now. Gertie's scale looks like its improving. Her balance is getting better. Hopefully, she is on the way to recovery.

Here's an update on Gerrtie. There is good news and bad news. I have just fed the last dosage of antibiotic food to them (the nameless one ) and Gert seems to be progressing great. Her scale that was injured is all healed and she is even growing longer finage i noticed. The ony problem now is this.



She can't get out of that corner. She is top bound. I was wondering if she took in air from the food i fed. It floated alot, didn't soak long enough. Or could it be something else? She wants to eat but can only make it maybe halfway down the tank. If anyone might check this out and let me know, that would be great

anyone have any advice???

Mmmmm. Now it is starting to look like Gertie also has some swimbladder issues. The infection may or may not have worked its way out of her system..no red spots left and her fins are looking good but unless you have some pH problems here and assuming watre is good and she has recovered from the infection I'd say she now has some sbd. Is Gertie female? Does she seem a little swollen? Females can hover up there when they are impacted (as well as on the bottom). Has she pooped recently and what does that look like?

Fasting or peas only for a few days may help.

Well, the water parms r good.Nirtrate a 1. It will have to be fasting because she can't get to the peas. Is there anything else i can give her to make her poop. I don't no for sure she is a female. Can u tell me by looking @ the pics? If that don't work, then what? I hope swim bladder is cureable....

Hi Trinket. I was reading a few posts on sbd. There r several things i have read that says maybe treat w/a small amount of epsom salt. I have her/him now in a 5 gal w/only 2.5 gal water so she can eat. I will try to feed peas. Or should I leave him/her alone for a few days w/o feeding? Man, i bit off more than I can chew w/all these fish. To update, I still have a sick discus, a sick goldfish, and now i notice my one of my beta's has inflamed gills. WOW!!!! I have Gel-Tek penacyllin, but it says nothing about gill problems. I have so many meds, but never the one i need. I also have maracyn plus. Opps, we r talking about the betta now. I am taking a crash dive here. About to throw in the towel.........

Dont give up. I am constantly amazed at fishes resiliance. It seems if we give them the basics (good water and food) they can survive almost anything. Especially the older larger fish. Gertie is just having a nasty run of problems but she is still eating and so she can get through this too. I'm sorry about the other fish. It does often happen all at once.

I would start with no meds. There is a chance that the med food has made her bloated. Lower warm water. You can add epsom. It will make her 'go'. But she needs feeding and preferably veggies to clear out her system. Peas are so excellent here as they are an all round food..safe to feed for days and days and have a laxative effect too. Algae wafers are also good.

yes, am doing all that now. No meds and some epsom salt. I have fed her peas and i also have some lettuce i want to feed. I will do the veggies for a while. Hopefully!!!! The temp. Should it be 76-78? I am not sure about that. Right now i am reading 74.

HI EVERYONE!!!!!! I AM JUST HERE TO SAY THANKS TO ALL OF U WHO HELPED ME W/GERTTIE. SHE IS NOW SWIMMING AND ACTING NORMAL AGAIN HER SCALES THAT WERE PERTRUDED R HEALED, NO RED MARKS AND SWIMMING NORMAL.
IF IT WEREN'T FOR KOKO'S, MY GERTTIE WOULD BE . LUCKILY, I FOUND THIS SITE AND SHE IS GREAT. SHE THANKS ALL OF U FOR THE HELP U GAVE ME TO HELP HER FEEL BETTER. SHE IS EVEN EATING LETTUCE, WHICH SHE HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO IN A LONG TIME.

I'M SO HAPPY FOR YOU!!

That's wonderful news. I knew you could do it! Good for Gertie and well done you

That is wonderful news.