So, I am totally confused as to standards on Ranchu. Recently I was told that SVR were not "real" and only TVR were recognised. Others admit the existance of SVR.
The "Oldfashioned" Ranchu I was introduced to many years ago in Singapore and other places were a dorsalless fish with very little wen. The Ranchu of today appear to be heavily wenned - so much wen that I would call them "Lionheads" with the curved back of a Ranchu! (I know - all my Japanese and Chinese friends are writhing in discomfort....sorry!!! )
So, I have a few spawnings of what I have called Lionhead/Ranchu fry. Some, I think, will be Lionhead, some Ranchu and others what I would call Lionchu....
Here are two photos of what I have selected as the two best fry I have from my first batch of Lionhead/Ranchu/Lionchu. I call these "Ranchu".
I have selected one to have the typical 45 degree tail tuck and a very rounded, circular presentation (SV). The other, I selected to have a more full head - complete with the "cheek pouches" that many have been telling me are necessary for a modern RAnchu.
I would appreciate any opinions and help with commenting on these fish (and others like them) from as many different people as possible..... Which fish is "better"? Which more typifies the "modern Ranchu?"..... Am I selecting well in my culling? What should I be looking for - or culling for that I am not? ARe either of these worth growing out for breeding/show?
Please keep in mind that these fry are only 4.5 months old and about 2 inches in length. They have a lot of growing to do, but I need to know where I am going in my breeding.... (sorry about my lousy camera skills - those little dudes move FAST!)
?????????????????????????????????????????????
Full Version: Ranchus...lionheads.....?
I know nothing about these fish but I do know your guys are beautiful 
I had a lionhead that recently died from Dropsy.. he was wonderful full of energy and personality.. Iv'e tried to get Ranchu but no luck here in Fla.. I meen they have them but their not of good quality..
I had a lionhead that recently died from Dropsy.. he was wonderful full of energy and personality.. Iv'e tried to get Ranchu but no luck here in Fla.. I meen they have them but their not of good quality..
Aaah I gtg somewhere very soon, but when I get back I'll get my hands on this hehehe.
It's all greek to me, but ######, those are some gorgeous fish!!!
I was also told that head growth is one of the consideration facts for Show ranchu qualification(standard). Information came from diff sources though, both east and west of the world. I also give attention to head growth when I choose my new fish.
Personally I like what people called Lionchu. SV ranchu with a big head. I like buffalo head as well.
PS I like both of your fish
Personally I like what people called Lionchu. SV ranchu with a big head. I like buffalo head as well.
PS I like both of your fish
Alrity, sorry for the late response. Needed a permission from some people to use pics of their fish.
Firstly, I need to make clear that whatever I say in this post is my own perspective on what constitutes a ranchu or a lionhead, and probably will only serve to confuse you more
For me, if we live in the western world (or any other place other than Japan), it pays to stick to the TVR (Top View Ranchu) and SVR (Side View Ranchu) rule. Why? Because in Japan, there is no TVR and SVR classification, every ranchu is called just ranchu and is judged by a standard. Which standard is it? It's the standard we in other places other than Japan called the TVR standard and the fish is judged predominantly from the top. Other than Japan, we usually put our fish in an aquarium and judge them from the side, hence the need for the SVR standard. So to apply Japanese ranchu (TVR) standard to our aquarium side-viewed fish is a step in the wrong direction, IMO.
Now, about the classification of Lionchu and Ranchu (again, this is my own understanding). To answer this, we need to understand the various types of wen.
There are a few types of wen in goldfish, but I'll list the 2 main types of wen occuring in ranchus & lionheads:
1. Lionhead wen
This wen, the way I describe it, is full of little bubbles that covers the ENTIRE head generously, evenly, and somewhat loosely that when the fish swims, u can see the bubbles jiggle freely on the head. When viewed from the top it looks rounded. This type of wen usually occurs in Lionheads (of course), Thai black SVRs, and Chinese-bred SVRs (if u go to goldfishnet.com's auction, u can always see a few examples of Chinese-bred ranchus)
Examples:
Pics from chinagoldfish.com
As you can see in the first pic, the entire head is covered evenly in bubbles (and loosely, too). U can easily imagine it jiggles around when the fish swims.
2. Tigerhead wen
This, in my opinion, is the ideal ranchu wen. This wen is compact, doesn't jiggle, and has clear distinctions between the wens in different parts of the face. The cheeks are very prominent. The forehead is not high but still bumpy. I like the way some sources say that the forehead should resemble the Chinese character "王" (wáng) which means king/ruler, or in my words the forehead should resemble a bodybuilder's "six-pack". Usually occurs in Japanese TVR and Thai SVR.
Example:
Pic from chinagoldfish.com
So to me:
Ranchu --> Any dorsal-less, short-tailed goldfish that has a curvy enough backbone and a wen (any kind)
Lionchu --> Any ranchu that has Lionhead-type wen.
Lionhead --> Any dorsal-less, short-tailed goldfish that has a straight backbone and a wen (any kind)
Personally, I don't really care if it's a ranchu or a lionchu, as long as the wen is not too overly big and heavy that it hinders the movement of the fish. Balance is paramount for me.
Then, what is the perfect SVR for me?
Pics courtesy of Mr. Hermanto
The two fish above are self-bred by Mr. Hermanto, a hobbyist from Indonesia.
Both ranchus, IMO, are almost perfect examples of SVR.
The first one could have a slimmer stomach, but it has perfect curved backbone, perfect tail, compact wen, and perfect posture.
The second one's tail could've been set a little higher and more upright, but once again perfect backbone, wen and posture. Moreover it's only a year old and already 18+ cm (7+ inches) long.
On daryl's own self-bred ranchu.
Both are nice fish, but the backbone's arching too high for my liking and the angle drop to the tail is not acute enough. The stomach looks to be a bit flat and needs to be more rounded. The head is set quite low so instead of looking proud and perky, it looks droopy and resigned. Here's an outline of what improvements I can see in one of ur fish:
Once again, I'd like to remind you all that all I wrote above is from my own perspective and most hobbyists will have their own unique views of lionchu, ranchu, lionhead, TVR, SVR, etc etc etc. Mine is based from what I've so far read, seen, and study about ranchu in general, compound them together into what I see as sensible and easy way to classify and look for good standard in ranchu.
I'd really like to hear more opinions about this matter (I'm sure daryl also)
Firstly, I need to make clear that whatever I say in this post is my own perspective on what constitutes a ranchu or a lionhead, and probably will only serve to confuse you more
For me, if we live in the western world (or any other place other than Japan), it pays to stick to the TVR (Top View Ranchu) and SVR (Side View Ranchu) rule. Why? Because in Japan, there is no TVR and SVR classification, every ranchu is called just ranchu and is judged by a standard. Which standard is it? It's the standard we in other places other than Japan called the TVR standard and the fish is judged predominantly from the top. Other than Japan, we usually put our fish in an aquarium and judge them from the side, hence the need for the SVR standard. So to apply Japanese ranchu (TVR) standard to our aquarium side-viewed fish is a step in the wrong direction, IMO.
Now, about the classification of Lionchu and Ranchu (again, this is my own understanding). To answer this, we need to understand the various types of wen.
There are a few types of wen in goldfish, but I'll list the 2 main types of wen occuring in ranchus & lionheads:
1. Lionhead wen
This wen, the way I describe it, is full of little bubbles that covers the ENTIRE head generously, evenly, and somewhat loosely that when the fish swims, u can see the bubbles jiggle freely on the head. When viewed from the top it looks rounded. This type of wen usually occurs in Lionheads (of course), Thai black SVRs, and Chinese-bred SVRs (if u go to goldfishnet.com's auction, u can always see a few examples of Chinese-bred ranchus)
Examples:
Pics from chinagoldfish.com
As you can see in the first pic, the entire head is covered evenly in bubbles (and loosely, too). U can easily imagine it jiggles around when the fish swims.
2. Tigerhead wen
This, in my opinion, is the ideal ranchu wen. This wen is compact, doesn't jiggle, and has clear distinctions between the wens in different parts of the face. The cheeks are very prominent. The forehead is not high but still bumpy. I like the way some sources say that the forehead should resemble the Chinese character "王" (wáng) which means king/ruler, or in my words the forehead should resemble a bodybuilder's "six-pack". Usually occurs in Japanese TVR and Thai SVR.
Example:
Pic from chinagoldfish.com
So to me:
Ranchu --> Any dorsal-less, short-tailed goldfish that has a curvy enough backbone and a wen (any kind)
Lionchu --> Any ranchu that has Lionhead-type wen.
Lionhead --> Any dorsal-less, short-tailed goldfish that has a straight backbone and a wen (any kind)
Personally, I don't really care if it's a ranchu or a lionchu, as long as the wen is not too overly big and heavy that it hinders the movement of the fish. Balance is paramount for me.
Then, what is the perfect SVR for me?
Pics courtesy of Mr. Hermanto
The two fish above are self-bred by Mr. Hermanto, a hobbyist from Indonesia.
Both ranchus, IMO, are almost perfect examples of SVR.
The first one could have a slimmer stomach, but it has perfect curved backbone, perfect tail, compact wen, and perfect posture.
The second one's tail could've been set a little higher and more upright, but once again perfect backbone, wen and posture. Moreover it's only a year old and already 18+ cm (7+ inches) long.
On daryl's own self-bred ranchu.
Both are nice fish, but the backbone's arching too high for my liking and the angle drop to the tail is not acute enough. The stomach looks to be a bit flat and needs to be more rounded. The head is set quite low so instead of looking proud and perky, it looks droopy and resigned. Here's an outline of what improvements I can see in one of ur fish:
Once again, I'd like to remind you all that all I wrote above is from my own perspective and most hobbyists will have their own unique views of lionchu, ranchu, lionhead, TVR, SVR, etc etc etc. Mine is based from what I've so far read, seen, and study about ranchu in general, compound them together into what I see as sensible and easy way to classify and look for good standard in ranchu.
I'd really like to hear more opinions about this matter (I'm sure daryl also)
Boy, good going there, Riz! 
Daryl, in the "early days", and this is still considered with most judges, a perfect ranchu isn't supposed to have much of a wen, or at least it should be in the right spots. Most ranchu weren't judged from the side, which left room for some flaws that aren't important when looked from above. A TVR could potentially have a back that isn't completely smooth, because you can't see it from the top. That same ranchu would do poorly in a show where judges also look from the side. A good TVR isn't neccessarily a good SVR, and vice versa.
As Terry, Peter and Tony explained it to me, the perfect TVR ranchu fits very closely in a rectangular shape. If you would draw an imaginary rectangle, and would imagine that rectangle over a TVR, the ranchu should fill out that rectangle as best as possible. That means the belly isn't too pronounced outwards to the sides, the back is rather square when looked from above, and the headgrowth is very pointy towards where the cheeks meet the corner of the face. Any excessive headgrowth of that particular fish would go outside the rectangle, which isn't desired. A good example would be the picture of those two tancho lionchus that Riz posted - imagine a rectangle over each of the fish, and you can imagine the headgrowth going way out of that box. Not good for a TVR.
Now imagine the fish right underneath the tancho picture, now that would be a hole different story. The cheeks are perfect, and they have the cornered cheeks that rather end up in a nice corner, not too rounded. For a SVR, I'd like to see its back a little less arched, its too high in my opinion. Also the tail tuck looks a little funky from this angle.
As to my personal taste, I love ranchu from the side. And if I had the choice between the last two that Riz posted, I'd take the first one. It has good body proportions, and its depth is about 2/3 of its length. I'd like a little less headgrowth particularly on the gill plates, and the fullness of its stomach might be that its a female. I love the tail tuck. and how the side lobes of the tail flare out sidewards nicely.
As to your babies, I love the one in the middle picture the best. It has a nice tail tuck in the right angle, although its back could use a bit more shape. The back should stay up a bit longer before it goes into the tail tuck, kind of like how Riz has drawn it. But I like its headgrowth, and it looks like its one of those ranchu that will have those cheek pockets that'll fit nicely within the imaginary rectangle. With more filled in cheeks, with age, it'll look less "droopy" in the head area.
The other fish doesn't have much headgrowth at all, which might change with age and the protein food he is on now. However, it has brilliant and crisp colors, with a clear defined edge between the white and the red. If you could put the coloration of that ranchu onto the other one, it would be the perfect mix.
Both fish have nice deep bodies, and I am very interested to see what body parts are going to fill out even more with the good food you are providing. Sometimes its hard to tell what will fill out and what will not - a bone structure is something you can't change, but fat deposits in the right spots can change a fish enormously with age. I always admire those before and after pictures that keep floating around here from skinny and long baby fish, and a year or two later those same fish are deep bodied and fat, and if not for the color pattern, I'd never believe its the same fish.
Now, to my personal taste - just give me that fish above the two tancho, and I am a happy camper! I am sorry, but I just like a lionchu so much better. Big, nice head, how wonderful! I am not too crazy about a pure lionhead however, something about that very straight back just isn't my thing. This particular lionhead is fine with its back, but I have seen lionheads with such straight backs and no curvation whatsoever to speak of - that is plain ugly in my eyes.
Daryl, in the "early days", and this is still considered with most judges, a perfect ranchu isn't supposed to have much of a wen, or at least it should be in the right spots. Most ranchu weren't judged from the side, which left room for some flaws that aren't important when looked from above. A TVR could potentially have a back that isn't completely smooth, because you can't see it from the top. That same ranchu would do poorly in a show where judges also look from the side. A good TVR isn't neccessarily a good SVR, and vice versa.
As Terry, Peter and Tony explained it to me, the perfect TVR ranchu fits very closely in a rectangular shape. If you would draw an imaginary rectangle, and would imagine that rectangle over a TVR, the ranchu should fill out that rectangle as best as possible. That means the belly isn't too pronounced outwards to the sides, the back is rather square when looked from above, and the headgrowth is very pointy towards where the cheeks meet the corner of the face. Any excessive headgrowth of that particular fish would go outside the rectangle, which isn't desired. A good example would be the picture of those two tancho lionchus that Riz posted - imagine a rectangle over each of the fish, and you can imagine the headgrowth going way out of that box. Not good for a TVR.
Now imagine the fish right underneath the tancho picture, now that would be a hole different story. The cheeks are perfect, and they have the cornered cheeks that rather end up in a nice corner, not too rounded. For a SVR, I'd like to see its back a little less arched, its too high in my opinion. Also the tail tuck looks a little funky from this angle.
As to my personal taste, I love ranchu from the side. And if I had the choice between the last two that Riz posted, I'd take the first one. It has good body proportions, and its depth is about 2/3 of its length. I'd like a little less headgrowth particularly on the gill plates, and the fullness of its stomach might be that its a female. I love the tail tuck. and how the side lobes of the tail flare out sidewards nicely.
As to your babies, I love the one in the middle picture the best. It has a nice tail tuck in the right angle, although its back could use a bit more shape. The back should stay up a bit longer before it goes into the tail tuck, kind of like how Riz has drawn it. But I like its headgrowth, and it looks like its one of those ranchu that will have those cheek pockets that'll fit nicely within the imaginary rectangle. With more filled in cheeks, with age, it'll look less "droopy" in the head area.
The other fish doesn't have much headgrowth at all, which might change with age and the protein food he is on now. However, it has brilliant and crisp colors, with a clear defined edge between the white and the red. If you could put the coloration of that ranchu onto the other one, it would be the perfect mix.
Both fish have nice deep bodies, and I am very interested to see what body parts are going to fill out even more with the good food you are providing. Sometimes its hard to tell what will fill out and what will not - a bone structure is something you can't change, but fat deposits in the right spots can change a fish enormously with age. I always admire those before and after pictures that keep floating around here from skinny and long baby fish, and a year or two later those same fish are deep bodied and fat, and if not for the color pattern, I'd never believe its the same fish.
Now, to my personal taste - just give me that fish above the two tancho, and I am a happy camper!
I am sorry, but I just like a lionchu so much better. Big, nice head, how wonderful! I am not too crazy about a pure lionhead however, something about that very straight back just isn't my thing. This particular lionhead is fine with its back, but I have seen lionheads with such straight backs and no curvation whatsoever to speak of - that is plain ugly in my eyes.
As I understood it, the flat back of the Lionhead of the past is just that - mostly in the past. Most Lionheads seem to have a gentle smooth curve that is without flat portions or bumps from the wen on back to the tail. IT is a decidedly less pronounced curve than what you see on a Ranchu but it is definately a gentle, smooth curve as opposed to that awful flat back. (I detest that back, too!)
Well, I guess the majority of my lionhead fry would make great TVL (if there is such a thing). They do not have the backs to be RAnchu - their's are a gentle, smooth curve that I love. But I call them my "little bricks" because, viewed from above, they look like little bricks swimming in the tank - with the thick tail junctions and solid little bodies.
I do have a set of younger Ranchu with pretty good backs - far better than those older two, but the tail spread is a bit wide for my tastes. How wide do you think the tail spread should be? I have been binning those with much spread at all.....
Perhaps I can come up with pictures today.. it is green water change day......
Well, I guess the majority of my lionhead fry would make great TVL (if there is such a thing). They do not have the backs to be RAnchu - their's are a gentle, smooth curve that I love. But I call them my "little bricks" because, viewed from above, they look like little bricks swimming in the tank - with the thick tail junctions and solid little bodies.
I do have a set of younger Ranchu with pretty good backs - far better than those older two, but the tail spread is a bit wide for my tastes. How wide do you think the tail spread should be? I have been binning those with much spread at all.....
Perhaps I can come up with pictures today.. it is green water change day......
This was really interesting! Daryl, your babies are still cuties! Will you keep them, breed them, or sell them?
Well, the two that I have pictured here have now shown up with unexplained ulcers - bad ones. They were at show, so I am wondering if I picked something up there. No other fish demonstrates such problems....
I swabbed but have no success in slowing it until I added Maracyn Plus..... the "microsheres"....
I am a bit amazed. Within 24 hours, the worst wounds look soooooo much better - the fish are no longer flashing and sagging.....
We will see how they turn out.
This has not been a good month.
I swabbed but have no success in slowing it until I added Maracyn Plus..... the "microsheres"....
I am a bit amazed. Within 24 hours, the worst wounds look soooooo much better - the fish are no longer flashing and sagging.....
We will see how they turn out.
This has not been a good month.
Sorry to hear that. Mardel's Maracyn plus is the new wonder cure it seems though. I love your ranchu in the 3rd pic (and hes also in the first I think).
This is so interesting. Riz your ideas make sense to me. I can see the attraction of that down turned little bit slimmer caudal peduncle at the end of a round back. That looks neat. But I do personally like the jiggly wen on the lionchu.
I was interested what you say about Japan having different standards for ranchu. We have a friend who has TV ranchu. I will try and get a pic for you although I haven't been to thier house for quite some time. I remember they are more boxy shape and humungously big - at least 6 inches- in green indoor water pond. I want to see them closer to decide with this info if they are the new best TVR shape!
I read that there are basically 3 types of wen, the lionhead, the tigerhead and the hathead. Is that right? So cheeks all round for the lion, less but some for the tiger and then top only for the hat.
In Mr Hermantos first ranchu pic the ranchu looks to be flying!! I suppose thats superimposed or I've had one too many?
This is so interesting. Riz your ideas make sense to me. I can see the attraction of that down turned little bit slimmer caudal peduncle at the end of a round back. That looks neat. But I do personally like the jiggly wen on the lionchu.
I was interested what you say about Japan having different standards for ranchu. We have a friend who has TV ranchu. I will try and get a pic for you although I haven't been to thier house for quite some time. I remember they are more boxy shape and humungously big - at least 6 inches- in green indoor water pond. I want to see them closer to decide with this info if they are the new best TVR shape!
I read that there are basically 3 types of wen, the lionhead, the tigerhead and the hathead. Is that right? So cheeks all round for the lion, less but some for the tiger and then top only for the hat.
In Mr Hermantos first ranchu pic the ranchu looks to be flying!! I suppose thats superimposed or I've had one too many?
QUOTE(Trinket @ Oct 1 2007, 04:43 PM) 
In Mr Hermantos first ranchu pic the ranchu looks to be flying!! I suppose thats superimposed or I've had one too many?
He's got his ranchu in a viewing tank that overlooks his ponds
Well, I am sad to report that the little fish that Riz detailed above (the speckled one) has died. From health to death in less than 3 days. An ulcer ate right into the gill/head of the fish and I could not stop it in time. Necropsy showed that the ulcer had traveled clear through to the brain and compromised the majority of the left gill. 
The other fish is responding to treatment and the ulcers on it are receding almost as rapidly as they appeared.
Sigh. They were easily the biggest and best looking fry I had. They almost made it to 3 inches in body......
The other fish is responding to treatment and the ulcers on it are receding almost as rapidly as they appeared.
Sigh. They were easily the biggest and best looking fry I had. They almost made it to 3 inches in body......
I'm sorry! There will be other times for you - fins crossed for the one that's healing.
QUOTE(daryl @ Oct 2 2007, 08:35 AM)
Well, I am sad to report that the little fish that Riz detailed above (the speckled one) has died.
Aw, I'm sorry to hear that. How sad. He was so cute.
To my knowledge from Thai Webboard. There are 3 different standard of ranchu. I think different country play different rules or standard.
The standard are wen only thick on Fang and Forehead...and few on gill
100% are Japanese Top view ranchu
Same as TVR or 100% but view back gotta be smoothly curvve
50% are Side view ranchu
Mostly over the head on
25% are lionhead or lionchu or hybird or mixed (chinese ranchu/lionhead)
I believe they are all the same fish just different standard.
It's used to be my problem when understand fish word from different language.
The standard are wen only thick on Fang and Forehead...and few on gill
100% are Japanese Top view ranchu
Same as TVR or 100% but view back gotta be smoothly curvve
50% are Side view ranchu
Mostly over the head on
25% are lionhead or lionchu or hybird or mixed (chinese ranchu/lionhead)
I believe they are all the same fish just different standard.
It's used to be my problem when understand fish word from different language.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.