500 gal pond
high ph (8.5 or higher))
great filtration system (mechanical and biofilter)
I have no test kit for amonia or nitrates
Hi all. I am new (today) to this forum and I have a big disaster going on.
I now have 1 comet, 3 shubunkins, and 2 fantails left.
Here's what I did and need help with.
I allowed water lettuce to grow unchecked until it covered the surface of my pond. I thought they could use the shade. BIG mistake. Today I found 3 of my fish dead, fishy, foul smelling water.
I got the water lettuce out of the pond and did about a 1/3 water change. The remaining fish are looking better except for one of my fantails who is very sluggish, laying on the bottom. I don't know what else to do to save him. Any ideas? I am just frantic here as I have had these guys for 3 years and have gone through all 3 winters with them outside.
Any ideas on how to save him?
Full Version: Any With Pond Goldfish Experience?
Is it possible for you to take a sample of your water to a pet store to be tested, if you don't have a test kit? How warm is the water in the pond?
How big are the remaining fish?
Is there rock in the bottom of the pond?
How often and how do you clean out the pond and filtration system? What kind of filter is it, and how much of the water in the pond does it turn over?
Do you have a waterall into the pond or added aeration?
What do you treat the water with when you add it back into the pond?
If you can fill in answers for some of those questions, it would help figure out what your best next step is.
How big are the remaining fish?
Is there rock in the bottom of the pond?
How often and how do you clean out the pond and filtration system? What kind of filter is it, and how much of the water in the pond does it turn over?
Do you have a waterall into the pond or added aeration?
What do you treat the water with when you add it back into the pond?
If you can fill in answers for some of those questions, it would help figure out what your best next step is.
Answer CL's questions as best you can but what ever you do don't panic. You're no good to your fish if you aren't thinking straight. We'll try to help you as best we can! 
We had lettuce and hyacinth in our pond and the fish kept getting tangled in the roots and dying.
How warm is the water in the pond?
it's now cool to the touch, sorry no thermometer
How big are the remaining fish?
anywhere from 4-7"
Is there rock in the bottom of the pond?
yes
How often and how do you clean out the pond and filtration system? What kind of filter is it, and how much of the water in the pond does it turn over?
The filter has a fountain attached and we normally clean the filter when the fountain slows down
It's a pondmaster but I can't remember how much water turnover there is, I just know that we matched it up to the pond when we set it up initially.
Do you have a waterall into the pond or added aeration?
the filter has a fountain for aeration (It's a pretty strong one, it comes up about 6 above the water surface, also the biofilter has a drop into the water of about 3-4 inches
What do you treat the water with when you add it back into the pond?
Normally I don't treat the water since I have the biofilter but this time I also added simply clear to help establish the bacteria (eliminate algae) and it's suppose to clear out nitrrates and ammonia
I don't have any access right now to having the water tested but have to assume that it's better than it was since all the others are looking better and perking up.
I have a big feeling this will be a wait and see thing with my fantail. I hate this
it's now cool to the touch, sorry no thermometer
How big are the remaining fish?
anywhere from 4-7"
Is there rock in the bottom of the pond?
yes
How often and how do you clean out the pond and filtration system? What kind of filter is it, and how much of the water in the pond does it turn over?
The filter has a fountain attached and we normally clean the filter when the fountain slows down
It's a pondmaster but I can't remember how much water turnover there is, I just know that we matched it up to the pond when we set it up initially.
Do you have a waterall into the pond or added aeration?
the filter has a fountain for aeration (It's a pretty strong one, it comes up about 6 above the water surface, also the biofilter has a drop into the water of about 3-4 inches
What do you treat the water with when you add it back into the pond?
Normally I don't treat the water since I have the biofilter but this time I also added simply clear to help establish the bacteria (eliminate algae) and it's suppose to clear out nitrrates and ammonia
I don't have any access right now to having the water tested but have to assume that it's better than it was since all the others are looking better and perking up.
I have a big feeling this will be a wait and see thing with my fantail. I hate this
CODE
We had lettuce and hyacinth in our pond and the fish kept getting tangled in the roots and dying.
We had it the last couple of summers with no problems but I never let it get so thick on the pond before. There were clues that I missed, like they weren't coming up to the surface to eat, letting the food drift down, and they never do that. half the time they act like they want me to drop it in their little mouths!
One of the ones we lost we called "hoover" cause he had such a big mouth and was the first up there to eat, just sucking it right up. I will definately miss him.
I'm so sorry you lost them, I know how rough that can be. I made a lot of mistakes when I first got fish and tried to keep them outside.
The fountain and drop from the biofilter are good, especially with the water still being kind of cool, so you should have some oxygen getting into the water for them. The water lettuce does reduce some of the surface area though, so if it covers a lot of the surface it can reduce the amount of gas exchange.
If the pond has been running that long, it's possible you've had some build-up on the bottom over time. Especially with rocks, this can lead to small anaerobic pockets where bacteria that produce hydrogen sulfide live. If the fish start digging around and release that gas, it could harm them.
In my experience, the best way to check would be to pull the fish out temporarily, and then poke around in the gravel. If you start to see gas bubbles and/or smell that sulfur/rotting egg smell, you'll want to clean out around the gravel and add fresh water to the pond before putting the fish back in. You'll have a lot of your beneficial bacteria living on the top layer of that gravel, so you don't necesarily want to remove all of it, at least not right away. If you're using city water, you'll also want to look for a water conditioner that removes chlorine and chloramine from the water to add whenever you top off the pond or add new water. I've had much more success with my fish taking that approach than adding any of the bottled bacteria products.
If you're planning to go to a store, you could also take two samples of your water - one from midday and one from after dark. Sometimes plants can cause changes to the pH overnight and this would let you know if that is happening in your pond. Stores should do this for you for free, and you can insist they tell you the actual number results from the test and write those down - a lot of them will just say "it's fine", which doesn't give you as much information about what is happening.
Fingers crossed for your guys, I know how nerve-wracking it can be. The waiting and staring at them is really frustrating.
The fountain and drop from the biofilter are good, especially with the water still being kind of cool, so you should have some oxygen getting into the water for them. The water lettuce does reduce some of the surface area though, so if it covers a lot of the surface it can reduce the amount of gas exchange.
If the pond has been running that long, it's possible you've had some build-up on the bottom over time. Especially with rocks, this can lead to small anaerobic pockets where bacteria that produce hydrogen sulfide live. If the fish start digging around and release that gas, it could harm them.
In my experience, the best way to check would be to pull the fish out temporarily, and then poke around in the gravel. If you start to see gas bubbles and/or smell that sulfur/rotting egg smell, you'll want to clean out around the gravel and add fresh water to the pond before putting the fish back in. You'll have a lot of your beneficial bacteria living on the top layer of that gravel, so you don't necesarily want to remove all of it, at least not right away. If you're using city water, you'll also want to look for a water conditioner that removes chlorine and chloramine from the water to add whenever you top off the pond or add new water. I've had much more success with my fish taking that approach than adding any of the bottled bacteria products.
If you're planning to go to a store, you could also take two samples of your water - one from midday and one from after dark. Sometimes plants can cause changes to the pH overnight and this would let you know if that is happening in your pond. Stores should do this for you for free, and you can insist they tell you the actual number results from the test and write those down - a lot of them will just say "it's fine", which doesn't give you as much information about what is happening.
Fingers crossed for your guys, I know how nerve-wracking it can be. The waiting and staring at them is really frustrating.
I don't have access to a place to go for testing. I mean it is about an hour away, so I don't see that happening. I think I have the water back under control. I just feel like such an idiot (or fish killer) since I am so careful to keep a hole in the ice in the winter for gas exchanges, but it didn't occur to me that with all that vegetation so thick that it was the same hazard.
I don't normally add anything to my water when I add some since I am using well water. And also that was the purpose of adding the biofilter. It was doing good as far as balance until we got hit with an algae attack. Thinking it was sunlight I allowed the water lettuce to flourish, then I had surgery and kind of lost track of what was going on. I am usually right on it with my fish. We are really thinking of getting a UV light for the filter for algae purposes, but I would like to know if they really work before I invest more money.
I hope I don't lose the fantail but it might be too late for him. He's really sluggish and wanting to hide out. I don't think there is anything else I can do tonight to help him. Anything that is within my means anyway.
I do think I will invest in a test kit if I can find it online reasonable priced.There have been other times that I suspected high ammonia.
Thanks so much for trying to help me with this. I'll post here tommorrow and let you know if he made it through the night. I think if he does he might be okay.
And you're right-this is nerve wracking!
I have become so attached to these fish. They have so much personality. I mean these guys will come out to me when I call them. It's hard to accept that this was my mistake and they paid for it.
I don't normally add anything to my water when I add some since I am using well water. And also that was the purpose of adding the biofilter. It was doing good as far as balance until we got hit with an algae attack. Thinking it was sunlight I allowed the water lettuce to flourish, then I had surgery and kind of lost track of what was going on. I am usually right on it with my fish. We are really thinking of getting a UV light for the filter for algae purposes, but I would like to know if they really work before I invest more money.
I hope I don't lose the fantail but it might be too late for him. He's really sluggish and wanting to hide out. I don't think there is anything else I can do tonight to help him. Anything that is within my means anyway.
I do think I will invest in a test kit if I can find it online reasonable priced.There have been other times that I suspected high ammonia.
Thanks so much for trying to help me with this. I'll post here tommorrow and let you know if he made it through the night. I think if he does he might be okay.
And you're right-this is nerve wracking!
I have become so attached to these fish. They have so much personality. I mean these guys will come out to me when I call them. It's hard to accept that this was my mistake and they paid for it.
Well, my fantail is still alive this morning. He's not looking great but I did see him eat a couple of nibbles of food. The others are darting around as usual and looking very good.
Kendon, I am sorry that you are having so much trouble with your fish, and I try my best to clear some things up.
There are a few things on my mind that could contribute to the deaths, and I try to keep it short (really, I try... Not that it works sometimes...
)
The filter and pump - I had a pondmaster filter once, and never again. I hated that thing, since every time I needed to clean it, I had to get it out of the pond, and all kinds of stuff accumulates under the filter itself as well, which causes anerobic bacteria to develop, which makes the water bad and smelly. And if you buy a pump according to the package of the filter box, there is one thing you have to think about: That gallonage mentioned how much the pump needs to move is meant for water gardens, not fish ponds. In a water garden is a lot less waste, since no occupants in there produce ammonia with their poop and breathing. Every time I see a gallonage mentioned on a filter package, I automatically double the capacity and get a pump accordingly to that.
For example, I use Fishmate filters for my ponds. The package says that I need a pump that moves 500 gl of water per hour, so I get a pump that moves roughly double that = 1000 gl/h. Once you add the fish into the equation, all bets are off in regards to whatever the package says that you need in terms of pump power.
Second thought on this would be the rocks on the bottom - again, waste can and will accumulate among them, and turn the water unhealthy for your fish. And when they root around in the rocks, they release those anerobic gases, which are toxic to them if they are very close to the gas.
Third - the plants. I personally loooove water lettuce for its water filtering capacity, which mostly happens through the roots. Unfortunately, my fish eat the roots before they have a chance to even do anything, and the lettuce dies.
The surface coverage of the pond with all the lettuce is less a problem than the sheer amount of the lettuce - plants give off oxygen during the day, which is great for the fish. However, they use oxygen at night, and therefore there is less for the fish. With a lettuce load this big, there is a huge lack of oxygen overnight, which can result in dead fish in the morning. And the bigger ones die first, since they need the most oxygen. I have seen koi ponds with heavy algae and/or plant loads, and when one goes out there early in the morning, you could see the koi gasping at the water surface, trying to get air like crazy. Now, koi are gigantic and by no means a comparison to goldfish, but the issues are the same. 
Cheekylemur has nicely covered the issue with the fluctuating pH, so I don't need to go into that any further.
Anyway, when you say that you clean the filter whenever the fountain flow gets slower, how exactly do you clean it? You have well water, so you don't have to worry about chlorine killing off all the good bacteria - however, I wonder if you just rinse out the media and then put it back into the filter, or if you toss the media every time and get new one? If you do the latter, you also toss out all the beneficial bacteria that the pond needs, hence you start a cycle all over again with deadly ammonia/nitrites in the pond.
Did you get a chance to do a water change yet?
I would think that with a reduction of the lettuce, cleaning the bottom of the pond more often, and doing more frequent water changes your fish shouldn't have any more problems. You are not overstocked by any means and have adequate airation otherwise. Maybe looking into a stronger pump for your filter would also help.
See, I "tried" to be short...
There are a few things on my mind that could contribute to the deaths, and I try to keep it short (really, I try... Not that it works sometimes...
)The filter and pump - I had a pondmaster filter once, and never again. I hated that thing, since every time I needed to clean it, I had to get it out of the pond, and all kinds of stuff accumulates under the filter itself as well, which causes anerobic bacteria to develop, which makes the water bad and smelly. And if you buy a pump according to the package of the filter box, there is one thing you have to think about: That gallonage mentioned how much the pump needs to move is meant for water gardens, not fish ponds. In a water garden is a lot less waste, since no occupants in there produce ammonia with their poop and breathing. Every time I see a gallonage mentioned on a filter package, I automatically double the capacity and get a pump accordingly to that.
For example, I use Fishmate filters for my ponds. The package says that I need a pump that moves 500 gl of water per hour, so I get a pump that moves roughly double that = 1000 gl/h. Once you add the fish into the equation, all bets are off in regards to whatever the package says that you need in terms of pump power.
Second thought on this would be the rocks on the bottom - again, waste can and will accumulate among them, and turn the water unhealthy for your fish. And when they root around in the rocks, they release those anerobic gases, which are toxic to them if they are very close to the gas.
Third - the plants. I personally loooove water lettuce for its water filtering capacity, which mostly happens through the roots. Unfortunately, my fish eat the roots before they have a chance to even do anything, and the lettuce dies.
The surface coverage of the pond with all the lettuce is less a problem than the sheer amount of the lettuce - plants give off oxygen during the day, which is great for the fish. However, they use oxygen at night, and therefore there is less for the fish. With a lettuce load this big, there is a huge lack of oxygen overnight, which can result in dead fish in the morning. And the bigger ones die first, since they need the most oxygen. I have seen koi ponds with heavy algae and/or plant loads, and when one goes out there early in the morning, you could see the koi gasping at the water surface, trying to get air like crazy. Now, koi are gigantic and by no means a comparison to goldfish, but the issues are the same. Cheekylemur has nicely covered the issue with the fluctuating pH, so I don't need to go into that any further.
Anyway, when you say that you clean the filter whenever the fountain flow gets slower, how exactly do you clean it? You have well water, so you don't have to worry about chlorine killing off all the good bacteria - however, I wonder if you just rinse out the media and then put it back into the filter, or if you toss the media every time and get new one? If you do the latter, you also toss out all the beneficial bacteria that the pond needs, hence you start a cycle all over again with deadly ammonia/nitrites in the pond.
Did you get a chance to do a water change yet?
I would think that with a reduction of the lettuce, cleaning the bottom of the pond more often, and doing more frequent water changes your fish shouldn't have any more problems. You are not overstocked by any means and have adequate airation otherwise. Maybe looking into a stronger pump for your filter would also help.
See, I "tried" to be short...
How do you clean the bottom of a pond? I have a gravel vacuum, and when I tried it yesterday, it wasn't working because the pond is too low. Dad just sticks the hose in and lets the water circulate, but it doesn't really get the thick gunk out.
Yeah, gravity doesn't really work with the python and a pond. I usually use my pond pump - I disconnect it from the filter, and hang the hose outside the pond instead. Then I turn on the pump, and guide it very close to the bottom of the tank. If there are rocks there, you can gently move the rocks around with the pump - it'll pick up any debris and carry it right out of the pond via the hose. Takes a bit longer, and if the pond is deeper, it is a real pain, but it works wonderfully for my 300 gl rubbermaids, and anything smaller than that.
That is the reason that many pond keepers, who plan a deeper pond, invest in a bottom drain.
That is the reason that many pond keepers, who plan a deeper pond, invest in a bottom drain.
First of all I am so sorry it took me so long to get back here. I got really busy for awhile.
I did change about 1/3 of the water the day I found the dead fish. It's rained a good bit since then so my water was looking really good. Now it's warned up again and I have algae forming. GRRRRR!
The good news is that my fantail seems to be doing fine!
I agree with you Ranchugirl about the pondmaster filter and all the stuff underneath when you pull it out to clean. I wonder if setting it up on something just to raise it off the bottom would solve this.
I don't know the specific details on the pump till I clean the filter again but I'm pretty sure it's way beyond what the filter specified. When I clean the filter I do rinse the media and put it back in until it totally falls apart.
I haven't had a chance to try to clean the gravel on the bottom. When we first started this pond about 4 years ago we used to move the fish out evey once in awhile and power wash the whole thing. Since I got the biofilter I don't want to do that and loose my bacteria.
I honestly think it was the water lettuce. In all the time I've had this pond this is the first time I lost any fish. I do admit that I have not watched it as closely as I had in the past. I think I would have been okay if I had not let it completely cover the surface of the pond. I have used it in the past but this year it spread more than ever before.
I wish I could beat the algae though. I thought the biofilter would do it. I also set up a canopy over the whole pond to cut down on the amount of sun it gets. I don't know what else to do as I really don't want to use chemical. I guess I should think about barley straw again.
I really appreciate everyone's advise here and I'm so glad to have found this forum!
I did change about 1/3 of the water the day I found the dead fish. It's rained a good bit since then so my water was looking really good. Now it's warned up again and I have algae forming. GRRRRR!
The good news is that my fantail seems to be doing fine!
I agree with you Ranchugirl about the pondmaster filter and all the stuff underneath when you pull it out to clean. I wonder if setting it up on something just to raise it off the bottom would solve this.
I don't know the specific details on the pump till I clean the filter again but I'm pretty sure it's way beyond what the filter specified. When I clean the filter I do rinse the media and put it back in until it totally falls apart.
I haven't had a chance to try to clean the gravel on the bottom. When we first started this pond about 4 years ago we used to move the fish out evey once in awhile and power wash the whole thing. Since I got the biofilter I don't want to do that and loose my bacteria.
I honestly think it was the water lettuce. In all the time I've had this pond this is the first time I lost any fish. I do admit that I have not watched it as closely as I had in the past. I think I would have been okay if I had not let it completely cover the surface of the pond. I have used it in the past but this year it spread more than ever before.
I wish I could beat the algae though. I thought the biofilter would do it. I also set up a canopy over the whole pond to cut down on the amount of sun it gets. I don't know what else to do as I really don't want to use chemical. I guess I should think about barley straw again.
I really appreciate everyone's advise here and I'm so glad to have found this forum!
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