My oranda goldfish has been sitting on the bottom of the tank for the last four days. I've had her for about 3 years now, and this is the first time I've seen her like this. She has 5 tankmates: 2 orandas about 1.5 in. bodies w/ 1 in. tails, 1 common goldfish - 5 inches, 2 - 3 in. dojo loaches, and she has a 1 in. body.- all in a 46 gal tank. This morning when I fed them floating pellets, my oranda (her name is CandyCorn) is usually the first to be at the top but I had to sprinkle sinking pellets in front of her 'cause I wanted her to eat...she ate a pellet.

Here's my info:
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 20 ppm
pH - 7.0
Tank size: 46 gallons
Filter: Marineland Emperor 280
Chloramine remover: Kordon Amquel Plus
Food: Once a day, Hikari green or pink floating pellets..1x a week brine shrimp and bloodworms; sometimes crushed up Hikari algae wafers.

The only notable thing that's different is that I've increased the amount of water changed out per week. I used to change out 5 gal. every two weeks, and for the past month I've increased it to 9 gallons. I've salted the tank for the last two weeks with about 4 Tbs. 'cause I noticed one of the other orandas floating and slightly flipping...I did a huge ten gal water change that week and now he's fine.

Can anyone tell me if it's a constipation problem or parasite or something else??

Thanks.

Hi there - I'm a bit tired now so sorry if this is short.

By my reckoning you're a little overstocked - the 3 orandas need 30 gal minimum plus 20 for the common (who is pretty big and will have quite a high waste load) and the loaches on top.
The original water changing programme of only 5 gals per fornight was WAY too little. Considering you have a very full tank, 50% or more each week would have been a better target. So the new 10 gal change isn't huge at all - it's not even 25% and it's every fortnight instead of weekly. Under these conditions the nitrates and unhelpful bacteria build up very quickly and infection can set in quite easily.
And then the salt - do you mean 4 tbs in total or per gal?
Salting to .1% would require 1 tsp p/gal. If you added 4 tbs in total that would make 12 tsp all together as opposed to 46 tsp/15 tbs. If you've done 4 per gal then it's 0.4 which is too much.
I would recommend a 50% w/change straight away and as a general guideline try to do at least this much every week.

I'll try to drop by tomorrow but need to go to bed now.

Hi Pixiefish,

I've just added 4 Tbs. of salt total to the tank and only feed my fish once a day, 4 small pellets each. Does this produce too much waste? Also, changing out 50% - 23 gallons of cycled water, would this shock the fish? Is this ok?

Today, I decided to feed them peas, CandyCorn ate only half a pea. =(

50% water change will not shock the fish if it is pH and temp matched and amquelled.

How long has your 46 gallon been set up? This is a clue along with the water params to how strong your bioload will be. For example if your tank has been running for a year and the fish have been disease free for at least 3 months preferably more, you probably have accumulated a strong enough beneficial bacterial load to do a 90% water change every week to no ill effect. Most of the helpful bacteria are living in the filter
and are only removed via filter media removal or filter cleaning. With a strong colonisation of bbs -as long as you do the water changes on different days to filter media rinsing you don't really have to worry about water changes affecting your cycle.

Any other symptoms? How does her poop look? What is your pH? How long has the tank been up and running? Anything new added to the tank (ornaments/plants etc)?

Usually, as pixie advised, the first action to be taken when a fish is bottom sitting is a large water change and then post back with farther details of the fishes condition so we can help more.

Hi Trinket,

The 46 gallon has been set up since February since I upgraded from a 20 gallon that I had set up for 3 years. I've kept the same Marineland Emperor 280 filter and this is the first time a fish has been sick in 2 years. The only thing different has been the increased water change this past month and two weeks of salt, everything else has remained the same...no new fish or ornaments in the tank. I'll check back later to let you know about the poop...and the pH is 7.0. Should I feed my fish it's regular diet?

Checking back in....my fish has been pooping black poop in pellets after eating peas. Also, I followed with a large water change (man, that was alot of work). My other fish are playful but CandyCorn still sitting at bottom.

OK, well your filter is pumping 28 gals p/hr which is about half the filtration you actually need.
Remember that ammonia isn't just generated from feeding alone, it's also excreted from the fishes gills. The bigger the fish the greater the bio load.
Fish can often be OK for a while when water changing and filtration are inadequate but eventually things will catch up with you.
My guess is that there is possibly a bacterial problem causing your fish to bottom sit. Do you have a gravel substrate? If so, do you vacuum the gravel?
I had a fish who went down with a bad infection during a period when I was constantly away and unable to maintain proper water changing. It's very easy for harmful bacteria to get going in a dirty substrate along with unchanged water.
The floating and flipping can be the results of constipation, high nitrates or a bacterial swimbladder issue. It's less likely to be parasites as they've all been together disease free for 3 years, without any new additions.
Is the black poop the result of bloodworms? Anyway, pellet poop is good.
The level of salinity you currently have is not really going to make much difference but may just keep things a little more sanitary, that's all.
Tell us how Candycorn is breathing. Is it slower or faster than usual? Can she actually get off the bottom if she wants to, or is she grounded? Any red streaks to the fins at all. Have a good look at her and post us back.
I'm going to wait for a mod to drop by and see if they recommend medicating at this stage or not.

Definetely sounds like that at least half the problem has to do with overstocking, and underfiltration. Is there any way you can ad another filter to the setup? I would definetely do that, und upt my water changes to 50% per week. My fish get even more than that some weeks and are perfectly fine with that. If you are still hauling buckets around, that of course is a ton of work. Maybe you can look into getting yourself a python system, that automatically empties/fills your tank without all those buckets involved.

I would correct the water issue first and then see if the fish improves. If I would be in your shoes, I also would get at least a good medicated food at this point, like Metromed from Goldfishconnection.com (exclusively) or "Antibacterial food" from Jungle, which I usually find in the pond section of Petsmart. Other stores might carry it too, of course. I would go easy on any other medication, since a lot of them affect the beneficial bacteria in your filter, which is overworked and undercolonized as it is. If you have any space left in the filter, try to stuff it with additional filter media, that'll help too.

I always notice that a lot of problems originate from water issues - just remember that your water might be fine while your fish are small. But bigger fish produce a lot more waste, and if your fish have been growing after you switched to a bigger tank, then the bioload has become more, without the filter capacity able to catch up to it.

I guess now you have figured out the secret why so many of us end up with more tanks and such - "oops, my fish get too big for just that tank, I go and buy another tank!". And onther, and another, and another,...... Or was that just me and my house, I keep forgetting...

Hi again,

I'll definitely go out a get another filter to increase filteration, and I have Antibacterial Meds from Jungle already on hand. If I need to set a hospital tank, would you recommend medicating the water too, and if so, what med should I use? And how long should I feed the medicated food to her? 1 wk or 2?

To answer Pixiefish, Candycorn is breathing regular, and no red streaks. When you disturb her she'll swim about 2-3 inches from where she parked herself on the gravel, but always very close to the bottom then stops and sits. She'll never swim more than 3 inches away from the bottom. When she's healthy, she'll swim to the top and all about. When I started with the bigger water change, that's when I detected high nitrates from my water test. The increased water change fixed the floating/flipping of the two other orandas, so I thought to keep it up thereafter. Then Candycorn started acting differently this week.

Oh well, it's good news that she doesn't have any streaking or irregular breathing.

My guess would be just to feed the med food rather than run something through the water as well - those meds tend to wreck your cycle so you'd need to treat in a QT tub. Given the choice I'd get the Goldfish Connection metro meds as they're more effective than Jungle.

But wait for Ranchugirl to advise on the meds as she is much more experienced than me.

Will keep dropping by.....

I put Candycorn in a hospital tank and feeding her medicated food. She's still sitting on the bottom of the tank in the corner. Crossed my fingers she'll get better soon.

Good idea to keep up the increased larger water changes until you can get your hands on that second filter. Tap nitrates are abig pain and you will have to keep a careful watch on those. Add them to what you have in an underfiltered tank and that is way high nitrates!!!

I think Candycorn will need some time. High nitrates can have a bad effect on the fishes swimming ability. You will need to check her QT water daily or change out half the waetr daily as I imagine the QT is not cycled.

Please keep us posted if any other symptoms develop.

Hi everyone,

It's been a week now and I've had Candycorn in the QT for a week. I had gone to the pet store to buy Maracyn-Two as I thought she had an internal bacterial infection due to high nitrates/bad filteration. The guy at the pet shop recommended Maracyn-TC (tetracycline) as he advised is more effective on goldfish. I had feed Candycorn 5 days worth of Anti-bacterial Food from Jungle, and medicated the QT for 5 days. As I transferred Candycorn into a bucket so I could clean out the dirty QT tank, I noticed some red veins on it's tail. After placing Candycorn back into the waterchanged QT tank, she doesn't look like she's made any progress. Still sitting on bottom, and hiding. Has anyone out there ever had their fish recover from swimbladder disease before?

To make sure the other fish stay healthy, I've invested in a canister filter, and thought to install the uv sterilizer back ( I was too lazy to put it on the new tank). I've also increased the amt. of the water change to 15 gallons, (still alot of work, my faucet head doesn't have a way to screw on the Python attachment). I'm just wondering now if I should go ahead and medicate her with Maracyn-Two and keep her in the QT or is it ok to put her back in the main tank now.

Hi dragoneyed- I would really try and do as Ranchu girl says and just feed the medicated food and keep her in perfect water for a while. A 15 gallon water change weekly on a 46 gallon is about 30% which is fine on an understocked tank but on an overstocked tank you would need to be doing that percentage change every 3 days I would think. Its approx what I do (30% every 3 days) on all my tanks and a 70% or 80% once a month.

If your water in the tank is good with low nitrates and zero amm and nitrites then I'd put her back home and keep an eye on her a few more days. The UV steriliser is a great investment and something to get rigged up now you have it, as soon as you can.

In answer to your Q about swimbladder disease- it can come and go. Or stay.

There are 3 things that keep going through my mind, and it is somewhat hard for me to pinpoint it down without seing the fish or having a microscope to check her out for any parasites and such.

First - nitrate sensitivity, which can cause swimbladder issues and read streaks in the finnage. Streaks aren't only the result of water quality issues however, it also could be stress, or some fish just are more prone to developing those (like fish with a lot of white in them, like red caps). I couldn't find it in the earlier posts, so I wonder if you have nitrates of any kind in your tap water.

Second - you mention gravel. Do you vacuum that in any way, and how thoroughly and often? It really is a pain in the neck, and I had gravel on my tanks years ago, was very religious with the cleaning with every water change, yet there is still a TON of stuff there that you just can't get out. I emptied my 160 gl tank to get rid of the gravel, and I was shocked how much stuff was there despite my rigorous cleaning. The remaining tank water was dirty for about 5 hours afterwards! Gravel looks nice, and it is very effective if combined with an undergravel filter, and even then its hard to clean underneath. Just not worth the effort in my eyes, UNLESS you'd have a heavily planted tank. So, how is your regimen with the gravel? If she sits on it a lot and there is bacteria in it that has turn anerobic due to lack of oxygen, it'll cause the fish bacterial problems.

Third - and that is just an observation - when you discribe how she barely moves, and when she does, she just hovers over the gravel without swimming up in any way, it reminds me of my egg bound girl I had a few years back. She would barely move as well, hide and just sit there. Even during feeding time, she always looked like she was glued to a particular spot, and despite her efforts never made it a few inches forward or sideways.

She doesn't have a more filled out belly the last few weeks, does she? Just an angle I like to cover.

Have you tried sticking a crystal of epsom salt into a pea and feeding that to her a couple of times a day?

Hi Dragoneyed, how is the fish doing lately?

I hope to hear that your fish is on the mend soon. Looks like you're in good hands.