so, after searching the net for what tank substrate is best, and o no avail, i finnaly said to myself "start a thread on substrates on kokos". currentley im looking for the best type of substrate that i can use with goldfish, dojo loaches and an undergravel filter. all hints tips and suggestions are welcome thou!

i use river stones had gravel but it was too messy the river stones are 1.5cm each so they are too big for my goldies too eat but tiny enough to look nice and tidy

I know nothing about dojo loaches - you will have to get information from someone else for that. BUT.... goldies - I do know.

Undergravel filters are not recommended for goldies. Sure, you can make them work - and some have. If you reverse flow the UGF, you have a better chance. But, by and large, an undergravel filter is a disaster just waiting to happen for tha goldfish. If you use a reverse flow with a power head, you stand the best chance at getting the filter to work acceptably.

Undergravel filters work by sucking all the waste down through the gravel, so that it collects under the plate that is on the bottom of the tank. That plate will hold the waste under there while bacteria that resides there processes the waste to less toxic forms. GREAT. That is a cycle.

The problem occurs twofold, with goldfish. Unlike a lightly stocked tropical tank, goldfish make VOLUMES of waste. They are really really reallly MESSY fish. They produce bumper crops of waste. All this waste will typically overwhelm the average UGF in no time at all. Not all will be processed. After a fairly short time, the underplate will become "full" and the filter will stop processing properly.

The second problem has to do with the type of fish a goldfish is.... (ooooh lousy grammar!!! sorry). Anyway, a goldfish is a bottom feeder by instinct. They spend most of their days picking through the substrate of their environment, looking for food.

An UGF typically works only on an airstone used to lift the water, causing a flow through the gravel and up. This is a very gentle, slow filtration - and is not enough for a messy goldfish. You can add a power pump to the UGF and achieve greater flow to solve this problem, but you are still faced with the biggy - how the bacteria in an UGF works.

The bacteria that live under the plate are not quite the same bacteria that colonate a HOB filter. The HOB filter bacteria use oxygen, combined with the ammonia/nitrite to produce nitrate. The bacteria that live under the plate are mostly an-aerobic, meaning that they can process the waste without oxygen. The by product can be a toxic gas. As your goldfish pole around the bottom of the tank, looking for food, it is possible that they could overturn a stone and come up with a snoot full of toxic gas suddenly released. I have heard tales of healthy fish that over turn a stone and go instantly belly up - dead. (

If you are planning on planting your tank with live plants, be forwarned that in the majority of tanks utilizing UGF, live plants do not thrive. Also, if you use a fine silt for the plants, this will sift down through the plates slots and fill the pocket under the plate - shutting down the UGF .

When you need to clean the filter - and with goldies, that will be OFTEN - every week or so - you have to remove all the gravel and vacumn underneath. Make sure you remove the fish from the tank - for the gases that are released when you lift the plate are toxic.

Personally, I would never use an UGF for any tank because I would hate the bother and time it would take to clean it regularly. But, for a lightly stocked tropical tank, it may be just the ticket. A reverse flow one would be even better.

As far as substrates, I do not have them. I run bare bottom. My fish are exceedingly healthy and I know exactly what is in my tank - no hiding parasites, no excess waste, etc. I spot scales that have dropped, food that is uneaten, eggs that have fallen, etc. The fish do not mind - and actually thrive. I use a stone here and there for aesthetic purposes in some tanks, and silk plants in all. It works well.

If you are going to use a substrate, you need to balance between having large enough stones that the fish do not swallow them and small enough that you can move the vacumn tube amongst them easily. Snad is a no-no in a goldie tank. As a bottom feeder, they will stir up a constant haze of sand in your tank - such that your tank always looks like there is a sand storm in there. (not to mention what the sand is doing to the fish's gills!)

Many people use alternative substrates - marbles and more creative substrates. I have seen some really NEAT tanks with alternatives in them!

Sorry - I wrote a book. I really really do NOT like UGF!

i like my subtract it is tiny gravel and when the goldfish bottom feed they don't choke on them and the spit them out it is so much fun watching them

thanks guys!
so that means no ugf.
as for dojos, they LOVE to bury themselves up to their heads in the gravel, and they have barbles around their mouthes that are easily damaged, so im looking for something that might work for them.
ive seen this stuff that looks like sugar, its about 2mm wide, is it any good?

A great place to gravel shop is H*me Dep*t!! They have a plethora of pretty stones of all shapes & sizes & colors! I found some really nice stones and they were much cheaper than the fakey ones usually sold in the pet stores!!

well, since you so have dojo loaches, i would suggest some fine gravel. something that is about an 1/8 inch big. your goldies cant get them stuck in their mouths either. for my tank, i use larger river stones. they are anywhere from 1" to 3". the down side to this gravel is that its hard to vacuum.

hope i could but the closest one to me is a few thousand miles away lol( il live in syria) but ty anyway:)




so thats about 3mm?

Well I am SOOO observant I should be a detective!! I didn't even notice you are in Syria!! I guess that would make a trip to H*me Dep*t a bit pricey! Especially just for gravel.

But do they have some sort of home improvement equivalent store there?

weeelll we have more specialist stores but most of the better aquarium stores sell some great gravel, and theres a lot of variety.

yes

When it comes to substrate I use coral gravel in my goldie tanks as Scotland is a soft water area so our water is too acidic for them. The coral gravel substrate acts as a buffer and raises KH and GH which in turn raises pH to one suitable for my fish.
I have a tank dedicated to just dojo loaches 2 normal and 1 golden. They are happy in their enviroment they love to dig about in sand searching for food and they love places to hide. My internal filter is set at maximum as they like to play in the outflow sometimes. Heres a link on dojo loaches their care and what they enjoy.

http://animal-world.com/encyclo/fresh/loaches/DojoLoach.php

Recently changed from gravel to some black Japanese river rocks and really like them. Much easier to keep clean than gravel, only downside is alage tends to grow on surfaces although I just take a few of the worst out at each water change and give them a scrub.

I have a Java Loach and found cleaning the gravel a real pain as he would always bury himself when I went to clean, which made things difficult, so the river rocks are great in that respect. Loaches also like nice smooth surfaces to sit on as they have quite sensitive underbellies apparently!

oh, but they love to bury themselves alive(*.*). so thats why im not considering rocks.
well... actualy i am using little blocks of green and blue glass that look cool with my current substrate.