Well, I am at the 2 week mark and have noticed many of the fry swimming sideways...I take it that this is not normal and that it means something is wrong with them? By sideways I mean instead of having the bottom of the fish parallel with the bottom of the tank, the side of the fish is parallel with the bottom of the tank. And by many I have probably seen about 8 doing this. These fish are still eating and look ok otherwise, but I had been culling the ones doing this until so many of them started. I just want to make sure that this is not normal and not likely to correct itself.

Also curious if this problem is a genetic thing, a water quliaty issue or am I not being gentle enough with water changes? the sideways swimming once do not look crooked or like their backs are broken, I have seen a few like that but these ones are straight, just swimming odd...swim bladder related maybe?

So then of course I want to know if I am doing something to cause the problem. I have been changing out 25% of the water every other day, using a turkey baster (slow but very calm), and replacing with temp/ph matched water treated with Prime. I also suction the debris off the bottom of the tank. I am very careful about the water when it goes back in, either using the turkey baster again or a cup that I slowly lower into the water. I watch the fry while i do this and other than they go to the opposite side of the tank it does not make them swirl around or anything like that. There is a sponge filter w/ air running in the tank, but the air is not on very high. I also added a little more water so there is like 7 inches instead of 5 in the ten gallon tank.

I am feeding 3-4 times a day, 1/8 of a frozen cube of Hikari frozen bbs each time, with one of the feedings also including soaked Hikari First Bites. Do you think this is enough food or too much?

Today params were ph 7.2 (normal for here), ammonia .25, nitrites and nitrates still 0. Once I move, if the fry survive the move, I will put more seasoned ceramic cylinders in there, and then maybe try my Nano filter with some seasoned media to try and speed up cycling (with a stocking around the intake of course). After that water test I change probably 40% of the water to try and lower the ammonia, and double dosed with Prime.

Thanks for any advice! Honestly, since we are moving and I don't *really* want 40 new fish, I am ok if I only end up with a few, but I do not want to caus ethe babies any harm or pain. That probably sounds horrible to some of you, and I apologize. The ones I have culled have definitely had poor quality of life, but on the sideways swimming thing I wasn't sure if it could correct itself or whatever.

Oh, and my fish are acting as if they will spawn again tomorrow...the little hdogs!

I was panicking when fry starting dying in large numbers in my first batch. I did a lot of things wrong with them...... from currents to less than cycled tanks, etc. and thought that was the problem. I considered a bacterial or parasitical infestation.....

All these problems proved not to be the cause.

The next batch of fry (my first 1000 hatch) reached about 5 weeks of age and started swimming poorly, sitting on the bottom, and just out-and-out dying. Each day, I would vacumn 2-3 dead fry off the bottom. I started freaking!!!!!!!!!!

I called every experienced breeder I knew. I read voratiously, I searched slides under the microscope by the hour. I even necropsied a dozen of the dead fry - desparately seeking answers to the unexpected deaths.

I have come to the conclusion that what I was seeing WAS the norm for that particular spawning - that particular cross between fish.

I know I have "preached" this before, but I will say it again. Fancy goldfish genetics is extremely complicated. There are so many modifiers and layers to each and every trait in the fish. The number of different combinations within a single spawn is exponentially mind boggling! The "fancier" the fish, the more combinations are possible that are not "good" combinations. Some of those combinations contain what is know as "fatal" genes. These are genes or combinations of genes and modifiers that, when present in the same fish, do not allow that particular fish to survive.

There are "fatal" gene combinations in every living thing on Earth. In creatures that only have 1 or 2 offspring per procreation, these combinations are not seen nearly as often. In creatures with a long gestation, the fatal genetic combination usually kills before birth. Fish, since they hatch after an average of 4 days, will hatch out all the "flawed" as well as other fry.

There are many types of "fatal" genetic combinations, too. Some will occur almost immediately. The fish, for one reason or another, is not capable of competeing equally for food. It will not grow as quickly as its mates - and ends up being a snack for them. Others seem to land along fairly well recognised time marks..... 5 weeks, 9 weeks and 12 weeks being the ones that were continually mentioned by the various breeders and books I consulted. I am asssuming that at these time-marks the fry reach a size/age where they outgrow their "flawed" body's ability to cope with the flaw, and succumb to the problem.

With some breeding partners, you will find more "flawed" or "fatal" gene combinations. With others you will get less. This is what makes a successful breeding selection. These are hard to call in most cases - for the genetic lines of fish are so rarely kept it is nearly impossible to know what you have unless you keep careful track of all offspring for generations. Some male/female matching may appear to look like they would be GREAT - and yet they yield very few viable fry. Other, more unusual, pairings can suprisingly produce larger percentages of good offspring!

It is well that not all the fry make it to adulthood, for, as you have noted, you are not looking to populate a pond or sell to a fish store in great quantity. This, also, can be nature's plan. In a species that does not care for its young, having huge numbers is necessary for a reasonalble number to reach adulthood to breed again. It is expected that only a very small percentage actually survive. What does not get eaten by predators must still be strong enough to survive in competion with others. We have removed the predators, but, most likely, maintain the high population in a small volume - making competion very stiff. This will cull the weak almost as effectively as the predators in thewild do.

It is said that of a 1000 fry, only 100 are worth being grown out. And, of those 100, only 1 (ONE!) is going to be "good enough" to be considered a "show quality" fish - or in many cases, a fish that is representative of all the physical traits necessary to be called a particular "breed". Some "fancier" breeds have less than 1 in 1000!

It looks that, from my 1000 fry I am going to have, maybe about 12 that are going to be recognisable as fairly nice representatives of their breed. Of those 12 or so, I have hopes for 2 to become potential show fish....

I have another spawning (about 1000) that just reached 5 weeks of age. Yesterday, I vacumned the first dead fry off the bottom. There are ones in there that are not growing well, ones that are swimming strangely, etc. I am happy to say that this batch is growing better, faster and with fewer obvious problems than the last group, but I still expect to find a great many that do not make it past the 5 weeks/9weeks/12 weeks mile posts.....

If I read this right, you think you have about 40 fry right? I would guess that you would be needing far more food than that per feeding. I have about 1000. I feed 2 meals a day. The first meal (they are 6 weeks now) is 6 cubes of Daphnia combined with2 large cubes of the larger brine shrimp (not baby), and 3 cubes (1/2 inch diameter cube) gel food. This will be totally devoured within minutes for the frozen food, and the gel is gone in about 2-3 hours. The second feeding - late afternoon - is usually about a tablespoon of crushed Progold (or another crushed dry food) and another 3 cubes of gel food. This is usually gone in the same time period. I never vacumn food - I just vacumn tons of poo!!!!

In this spawning, the largest of the "hogs" is about 3/4 inch long and has color and body type becoming apparent. The smallest were eaten, the next smallest are about 1/2 inch and getting color. I am particularly pleased with this group, but am starting to get a few dead ones. I am also starting to see body conformation flaws that will eventually probably eliminate the fry so inflicted, from life. I have a female that has a flaw that appears to be a strong trait that is dramatically apparent in a large number of her offspring. When it is exagerated for one reason or another, it becomes fatal. My first cross with this female produced a large number with this flaw. The second cross involved a male that appeard to have the opposite representation of the conformation. I hoped that the cross would produce more offspring that are "middle type", lacking the full on flaw of the mother.....

I expect that a good number of your fry will survive the move. I have been particularly distressed at times when I see a fry that had particularly good potential go down for no reason I could determine, but I have taken to NOT looking at individuals until they get to at least 12 weeks of age. At that time, I access them all - and have found some suprises that make it all worth while. You should find some lovely fish that are strong and healthy - that take the move instride and come out the better for it!

KEep beating at that ammonia and the coming nitrite. Nitrite is particularly nasty and makes for lifelong problems in young fish!!!!

It sounds like you are doing GREAT! good luck on your move. And post more pics when you get there!

Thanks for the encouragement and advice!

I think the biggest problem was that I was not feeding them enough. I upped the feedings a lot and now they are getting fat and the ones that were swimming sideways are not longer doing so. Yay!

I understand about the breeding thing better now, daryl explained it wonderfully! While my fish are not fancies (comet/common crosses) that does not mean that all the possible gene combinations are desirable or ones the fish are able to suvive with. Of the two possible father one is a red comet (or possible comet/common cross )and one is a red common. Of the possible moms, one s awhite comet and one is a white common. I don't know if both female fish had eggs or if both males fertilized, so who knows?

We will see what happens in the move. I will be happy if I end up with 2 or 3 surviving fry after all this, but we'll see! With my luck they will all live...

And yay, I got my breeder award! Thanks Koko!