Hi everyone - I have come to the conclusion that my smaller fantails completely FLIP upside down if my nitrates go over 5ppm - and a 90% water change makes the water test at 5ppm and within 24 hours, I have 10ppm again and upside down fish - and this is without feeding them in the 24 hour period!

Now, I've been on this board long enough to have a theory on this - bottom line: I have a 46 gallon tank and four goldies - one over five inches - my gut says time to upgrade the tank to at least 80 gallons, problem is, my husband does not want to spend the money (things are REALLY tight right now) - I can't say I blame him, but I can't stand to see my fish upside down - also, now I am beginning to wonder if upgrading will even fix this - maybe it 's permanent?

I am so confused...I'll take any input I can get....

5ppm-10ppm nitrate is nothing. my tank go to 40ppm-60ppm before a water change and my fish is still swimming happily.

seems like your goldfish have some problem. did this happen recently?

I have a theory that many fish can be permanently sensitized to nitrAtes by earlier exposure to nitrItes. This sensitivity can be life long. This is why I will NEVER cycle a tank with a fish in it!

That said, I, too, have fish that are unstable. I call them my coal-mine-canaries. They let me know when the nitrates are going over 10 or 15.....

You can try feeding less. In a fully stocked, adult tank, if you feed lightly, you can still have only a rise of 10ppm nitrates per week. Feed the fish only 5 days of the week - a fast will go a long way to helping an unstable fish. Change out your water every 4-5 days - or 3 days if you need to in order to keep the nitrates low enough.

In one tank that I feed more heavily, I have used an old HOB filter box that is stuffed with Pothos and other green growing plants - nitrate "mops". The plants use the nitrate in the water that is pumped through the filter box to grow. I trim the plants, etc., but they grow large and healthy and suck out a great deal of nitrate.

You can create a planted tank with water plants. I have never had success combining goldfish and live plants, though. The only plants that survive are the ones they cannot get to!

Besides the nitrates, may I suggest that you go to gel food only? I have a sensitive fish that was damaged before she came to me. The only thing I can do to keep her stable is too feed her gel food exclusively. I make up various recipes - some are only greens while others incorporate good protien, etc. This ensures that there is never air in the food - and that the fish gets tons of greens....

Carol is spot-on with her ideas about early exposures and sensitivities. I too have suspected this......




I also agree that feeding is a large portion of the equation for correcting "nitrAte flippers".


A few pointers to add to Daryl's:


Feed mostly foods that are vegetable based. I mean TRULY vegetable based. You know those algae wafers they sell at stores, they actually contain large amounts of protein from meat. The same goes for most foods that claim to be vegetable based. Vege-based foods will produce MUCH less wastes in the form of ammonia->nitrAtes. Blanched greens and other veggies are an awesome addition to their intake as well.

Try to coordinate your feedings of commercially prepared (well balanced) foods with your regular water changes. When it's getting close to time for a water change, go ahead and give them a couple feedings of their staple food. That way, the nitrAtes that form as a result of the high protein foods are quickly reduced by the water changes performed shortly after the feedings....


As far as feeding amounts are concerned; At each meal, only feed as much as they can literally consume in 3-5 minutes max. Another way of judging feeding amount is to look at the size of their eyeball. The size of their eyeball is approximately the size of their digestive tract, witch happens to be a short, straight shot right out to their vent. Of course, this does not hold true for telescopes and celestials. One would have to compare a fish of similar size for an accurate prediction of the size of the digestive tract in question.


I hope this helps!

Thanks to two of the most skilled fishkeepers on this board - both of you, Daryl and Toothless - I appreciate everything you recommend - ok..gel food - got it - pure veggies, got it -
now:

QUESTION:

In the last week, my black ryukin, Miss Elizabeth, started flipping next to the other two -she comes out at feeding time (as do the others) and swims and plays a few hours after at night, then back to flipping under one of my plants with the others - I did a 90% water change on Tuesday, didn't feed until last night Thursday - I gave them Spirulina - only four flakes which I soaked and broke into little baby pieces - since Tuesday Nitrates are steady at 10ppm - so...is Miss Elizabeth mimicking the other fish (my husband said that) - my water params have checked out perfect as far as everything else, and I've not introduced new fish in my tank for over two years - I just don't believe there is any disease because after a year of this "flipping" these poor little guys would have passed on.

I went to Petsmart today, I saw a 60 gallon tank - a little more reasonable then an 80...If I upgrade then each of my fishies would technically have 15 gallons each - I think what worries me is what if I upgrade and these poor fish are destined to just sit in the back of the tank flipped over...are they suffering? Would you guys upgrade? Is there any hope that they will ever flip back??? I realy doubt it...

Also...should I be concerned about protein for my fishies if I go all gel, or is it ok to put tuna/salmon, etc., in there?????

Being that I don't make gel foods, Carol would be able to answer that much better than I.



As for them suffering. It really doesn't sound like it at all. In fact I'll bet there is a little bit of monkey see monkey do going on........

Thanks...it's just the strangest thing to see them upside down, but the crazy thing is they keep growing and getting bigger and bigger - I really strongly feel that I should upgrade their tank.

Yeah, my favorite goldie, Spud is a flipper. He's got permanent damage done to his swim bladder so I can often find him "tripping" and trying to right himself while slithering along the bottom on his side. He's still gets around and recieves plenty of food though........


Upgrading to a larger tank will definitely make it easier for you to keep the nitrAtes low.....

I don ot think the flipping is a choice - it is a problem.....

Flipping can come from a whole host of reasons - any of which can be present in conjunction with any other of them. Combinations - sometimes complicated ones - can cause the flipping - and to solve it, you may have to address ALL the problems. This is not necessarily easy to do. It is not a case of elimination, for, many times, the various problems are stacked - each causing the other......

Nitrates - as you have noticed can cause flipping.
Stagnant food or eggs in the gut can ferment and cause flipping.
Stagnant food or eggs in the gut can cause a bacterial infection and cause flipping.

I have had fish that respond (after about a week of LOW nitrates and continued low nitrates) to just lowering the nitrate concentrations in their tank.

I have had fish respond to fasting.

I have had fish respond to green food exclusively for a few weeks.

I have had fish respond to warmer water.

I have had fish respond to a salt dip purge.

I have had fish respond to an epsom salt grain - injesting one will purge a fish.

I have had fish respond to a male being placed in the tank - forcing an egg drop.

I have had fish respond to water changes, air pressure changes and temp changes, forcing an egg drop.

I have had fish respond to medicated food - killing bacterial infections that were releasing gas causing flipping.

I have had fish respond to any or all combinations of the above solutions - all or just a few!

I have also had fish that never responded to ANYTHING, and I eventually lost them.

I tend to be agressive when treating a flipping fish. I truly think the longer it goes on, the harder it is to solve or the more permanent it can become. I just recently have run the gamant of treatments for a large ranchu I have. I finally added in MetroMeds. Within 2 days, she is swimming much much better and more solidly upright. She floats normally - not end up or nose up or upside down. I hope that this can be a permanent cure.... time will tell. I have been futzing with her for nigh onto 6 months now - I solve it and it comes back. I add in another solution, have a modicum of success - and then she flips again.

It is a difficult problem to solve. Do not be afraid to dive in to solve it. It does need attention, though. It is not normal nor a copycat condition. It is a potentially life threatening condition. They are not suffering - but are not as they should be.....

In answer to the gel food - yes, as I understand it, you can put any fish product in the food. I do not, specifically. I use the seafood flakes from Goldfish Connection. They are a wonderful combination of various fish. Theya re easy to incorportate in gel. I use any goldfish or koi food I wish - floating or not, by simply soaking it in the water that will be used in the food and squeezing out all the air.

I make a gel food that is exclusively greens, to be used for all my fish to give them the roughage they need. I use only fresh greens..... Peas (you can use frozen ones if you do not have a garden), Broccoli and spinach make up the majority of the green gel. I add in dandylion greens (grown pesticide free in my vegetable garden), various lettuces and green beans are also common additives. This gel food is fed anytime I want a fish to have only greens for a while.

Even my gel food that uses protein uses at least 1/2 of volume in greens. Spinach and peas being the majority in that. The food, itself, is green - even with the protien.

My fish are always wanting to go to the top at feeding time to "grab" it before it falls to the bottom, and Oscar is the worst at gulping air. I have never seen him flip though until yesterday's feeding. I gave them some freeze dried bloodworms, that in my haste, did not soak first....so they didn't sink right away. Oscar devoured them, along with a LOT of air I imagine, as he was flipped for most of the night. I felt so bad for him. I noticed this morning he was righted again, but I'm giving them all a couple of fast days, and then being very, very careful to make sure ALL their food is soaked well before feeding.

I feel bad that they all have to fast too, because of Oscar's behaivor. But it's probably best to put everybody on the same page. They already have their regular fasting and pea days.

Flipping sucks though.

Daryl congrats on being a grandma! How wonderful!

Well, I think my first step will be to get a bigger tank - I am thinking at this point 60 gallons will help keep those nitrates down...if i use my bio wheels and media from my Penguins with the new tank, will my fish be ok as far as the cycle goes?

Also, how do I do a "salt dip purge?" Out of everything you listed, it is the only thing I have not tried yet - the fasting for five days and peas exclusively for a week after that, water temp/air pressure changes, epsom salt grain, antibiotics, none of that made a bit of difference -

And, with your gel food - when you mix it all up do you treat the water with Prime because of chlorine, etc., or do you use bottled water and boil it? I feel like that is a dumb question, but I am not sure...

Finally, I've wondered about eggs being impacted and have read on the boards a few times about males/females - I just can't tell what my little guys are - but as a rule - don't fish have to be older than three years to make eggs? I thought I read that somewhere..?

Thanks for your time Daryl

it is speculated that high nitrates can cause flipping but its not 100% proven.
its only been recognized via the internet

decades ago i kept fancy bodied goldfish (orandas, lionhead etc) it was long before the internet so there was no concern about nitrates and fish health.
my goldies were kept in extremely high nitrates...160 ppm
but yet ive never had a flipper.
genetics plays a larger role than anything else. just like a breed of dog, if its poor breeding from the start then your gonna have numorous problems regardless
just my thought, which im sure will raise debate
just dont believe everything you read on the internet

I do believe genetics is crucial. I don't believe all I read on the internet, but I would bet my fishes' life on what Daryl, JenW, Toothless, Laurie P, Ranchugirl and others on this board say. I know personally speaking they've saved my fishes' lives more than once with their wisdom. Nitrates in excess are not good - at least for my fish - I suppose I can't speak of anyone else's.

i understand

your best bet to zero nitrates are heavy plantings.
floating plants work the best and i dont mean tropical aquarium plants like hornwort or anachis, i mean pond floaters like water lettuce and water hyacinth.
these will soak up nitrates overnight and bring them to zero within days.
downside is they need extensive lighting. i had mine under 365 power compact lighting
as mentioned above, their feeding routine will also have to be changed

Beemo,

While the precise mechanics of nitrAte flippers and floaters isn't well understood, it has long since moved into the realm of fact that some fancies become sensitive to high nitrAtes and float or flip as a result thereof. I have diagnosed it NUMEROUS times here for the last 3+ years. I have also personally experienced it with a handful of my own fish.

Even if high nitrAtes aren't causing the floating directly, there has to at least be a common denominator between the level of nitrAtes and the symptoms being observed.....



I wish I understood the mechanics behind all of this.

I would like to add to all this great info which I'm lapping up as I am in a similair situation to Newfishmom, that in my experience algaed tanks seem to have way lower nitrates than non-planted/non algaed and you may do well to add encourage algae.

In my tank that I keep plecos the nitrates are off the wall. I just cannot keep them in control! I check them daily and I am changing water sometimes daily The plecs have consumed all the algae in the tank that was once keeping my nitrates under better control I'm really considering taking the plecs back to the store .

This is the tank I have had so many flipover, ballistic swimming issues in. like Carol I have my canary fish that tell me immediately to check the water-I do a change and the fish flips back. It is that clearly nitrate connected.

My other tanks with a lot of algae and no plecs, do not have flipover fish. Is this just a coincidence? I think not. Just my 2 cents. I wish there was one simple answer

yep algae is a great nitrate reducer, the nice thick green hair algae.

id get rid of the pleco's, for various reasons.
one thing that is often over looked is the filter. its recommended to clean them on a monthly basis with canisters even going longer, but i clean mine on a weekly basis (canister) the hob i change the cartridge every other week.
alot of crap gets in those filters and without weekly cleanings we're just filtering through muck.
water changes are a must in any system. the size of the tank matters a great deal too.
in my personal opinion the foods we feed have a bigger impact than nitrates. most goldfish are grossly overfed and fed too often.
and peas?? peas are so gassy i dont know how they are even recommended (as a laxative i know)
i feed my goldfish sparingly, their main diet is natural green hair algae that grows in the tank. i supplement that with hikari, spirulina and spectrum in small quanities. a hungry goldfish is a happy one.
ive had my fair share of problems, but to this date ive never had a flipper (knock on wood)
(i lost 90% of my fish due to a TB outbreak several months back)

my point is 10 ppm nitrates is very very low and should in no way effect any fish, even nitrate sensative reef fish and corals can tolerate that.
more than likely your flipping issues are food and poor genetics related.
check your tap water for nitrates and ammonia also. i test mine weekly, sometimes its good but sometimes you'd be surprised at how high the readings can be.
if your tank isnt too large RO water is the best to use.
you also didnt mention if you use salt? salt should only be used for treatment not to be lived in 24/7

Peas are only gassy to more advanced digestive systems, not the the rudimentary digestive tracts that goldfish possess.

Actually, 10ppm isn't very low at all. ANY nitrAtes signifies an imbalance present in most or all natural bodies of water that house life. We aquarists just happen to be able to maintain a vague resemblance of a state of equilibrium in our tanks. It's really just temporarily controlled chaos. If you go out to a large pond, lake or other bodies of water that you would find carp and other cyprinids, you will never detect nitrAtes of any sort (unless there were some contamination from pollution). NitrAtes aren't around long enough to build to standard detectable levels. They are quickly converted into nitrogen gas through natural processes. So, they are simply not a factor of any importance anywhere except in disrupted ecosystems and slosed systems such as small ponds and aquariums.

There many different ways flippers and floaters occur. However, when faced with the fact that the fish floats or flips when nitrAtes exceed a certain level(and this is repeatedly observed), that fish is obviously, beyond any doubt, sensitive to nitrAtes. Thus, the cure for said fish would be to reduce the nitrAtes and keep them there.

10 ppm is extremely low considering most freshwater aquariums run at 60 ppm or more.
in an unplanted tank keeping nitrates under 20 ppm is extremely hard to do.
massive water changes is the only way and then you still have to be sure your tap water doesnt have any nitrates, which usually it does.
my tap water comes out at between 10-20 ppm of nitrates, its never zero in my neck of the woods (it is city water)

bare bottom tanks help a great deal also

four goldfish in a 46 gallon tank is also over stocked. get rid of two fish if you cant upgrade to a larger tank.
give the flipper to someone with a large planted tank or pond.
then your troubles will be solved