Test Results for the Following:
Ammonia Level? .5
Nitrite Level? 0
Nitrate level? 0
Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)? PH 7.0
Ph Level out of the Tap? over 8
Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? 3 weeks not yet cycled
What is the name and size of the filter/s? Penguine Bio-Wheen 200
How often do you change the water and how much? 3 x's per week 75% - or when Ammonia nears 1ppm
How many fish in the tank and their size? One 3" Oranda & One 2" Fantail
What kind of water additives or conditioners? Salt, Topfin Water Conditioner (removes chlorine & Chloramine)
Any medications added to the tank? Just started Medi-gold today
Add any new fish to the tank? No
What do you feed your fish? Usually Omega One Pellets and peas
Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt",
bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
Any unusual behavior like staying
at the bottom, not eating, ect..? Flashing and two sores


My Oranda, Ellen, has been flashing. It started out minimal and has gotten worse. I went to the office to do a water change this morning and found she had two small sores on her side. It looks like she lost a couple of scales or something. Yesterday, she was VERY skiddish if I went by the tank too fast. She would "Flash" away. If I came to the tank slowly, she was OK.

Since I am cycling, do you think the flashing could be from ammonia burn? This morning I was able to get some gravel from a co-workers cycled tank. I hope that speeds things up. She had 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 40 nitrates.

Should I buy a Rubbermaid tub and quarentine Ellen and medicate her? I can Get Macaryn and Macaryn II or whatever else Petsmart carries. I fed her Medi-Gold this morning. I don't know what the problem is, so I don't know what medication to use. I know I can't medicate in the tank as I just got the gravel from the seasoned tank in there.

Please advise ASAP. I can do this tonight or tomorrow if I hear from someone soon.

As always tahnks for any help you can offer!

A fish flashing is normally a sign of parasites.How much is your tank salted at.You can treat parasites by salting your tank to 3%.This is achieved by putting 1 teaspoon per gallon of water.12 hours later repeat to get it to 2% then finally another 12 hours later repeat again to achieve 3%
Is she rubbing herself against ornaments in the tank as that is a sure sign of parasites.

I very highly recommend that you purchase some Prime or Amquel+ and double dose it at every waterchange from here on out until the tank is fully cycled. You can actually keep double dosing it permanently. I do. This will detoxify the harmful effects of any ammonia spikes.


When you can, sit in the room that she is in for about an hour. Keep her in your periphery and see if you can see any (seemingly) unprovoked scratching on ornaments, gravel or the glass. Rapid fin shaking and coughing should be looked for too. Post back with your findings.


Lets concentrate on what we know is wrong first. Then, if these symptoms persist beyond the maturing of the bio-filter we'll go from there.

Good luck and post back soon!


PAul

Blue - thanks for replying! She is mostly flashing on the gravel, but some on the plants. I increased the salt today from 1 scoop per 5 gl which I have been doing all along, to 2 per scoops per 5 gl. It is Topfin Aquarium salt. I will do another water change tomorrow and increase it again. The tank is at my office, so I can't do it tonight.

Should I put her in a rubbermaid and medicate with anything other than salt? I do have another fish in the tank. If it is parasites though, I guess I need to treat the whole tank. That would suck as I just put some media from an established tank to help push my cycling process along.

Thanks again for the advice!

Hi pf, when you say scoop, how big is a scoop? It's so important to know how much salt you're adding to your tank...

It sounds like flukes (or some other parasite) and there's one of 2 things you can do.

1) Dose the tank with prazi - it's gentle on fish and won't mess with any good bacteria on the gravel. You can administer 2 doses plus it works well when run with a salt level of 0.3%

or

2) Grab a product called Paraste Clear - it treats a whole host of parasites

I would go with the prazi and salt for now and keep an eye on your salt level. You can always start again with fresh water (2 large waterchages) and start with 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon...

Thanks t all for your advice! Paul - I was using Amquel+ at the water changes up through the last change. I since I was putting in the seasoned gravel from another tank to get mine going faster, I though maybe I shouldn't use it. I was also using it between water changes to bind the ammonia. Both of my fish seemed to have oxyegen shortages for a couple of hours with it. I do have extra aeration in the tank and they would hang out around it or gasp at the top. I wil continue to use it at your advice.

The salt, I was going by the directions on the back. The directions are to use 1 scoop per 5 gl. I cannot remember what % that was, but it was way below the .3%. I increased it to 2 scoops this time. I will check again how much it will take to get up to the .3%.

Jen - Will the Parasate Clear mess with the good bacteria? I wil get some Prazi for now and increase the salt to .3% and see what happens. I know the 2 scoops per gl is not near .3% so I will do the gradual increase. I think the scoops I have been using are maybe 1 Tablespoon per 5 gl.

Toothless - The tank is in my office and she does do unprovoked flashing and scratching. It is just much worse when I approach the tank too quickly.

Thanks to all. I appreciate all the advice. If you have anymore, please post again!!!

Well, I couldn't find Prazi so I had to go with Jungle Parasite Clear. It says it will not mess with the biological cycle. I removed the carbon from my filter. I used 3 tablets for my 29 gl tank per instructions. I calculated that my salt level is at .1% so I need to increase. One scoop of my aquarium salt = 1 tablespoon. I was using 2 scoops per 5 gl so that is just over .1%. I am going to dissolve 29 more tsp and add slowly to get to .2%.

I think the gravel from my co-workers tank is working. My water is very cloudy today, and I hear that is a good sign for cycling. What is weird is right after my water change yesterday, the ammonia was at .50. I have not done anything to the water and today it is somewhere between 0 and .25. I will wait until tomorrow to do a water change. There is still no nitrites or nitrates so I wonder how the ammonia level dropped???? I did not add anthing to bind or remove it. I did buy some Prime today, but will wait for water change to use it. The Amquel+ took out a lot of ogygen I think as they would gasp when I used it.

There is no further damage on Ellen today. I think they might have ich though. I noticed a couple of "salt" grains on both fish. Ellen is not flashing as much today. Should I treat for ich?

Thanks again for everything. The people at LFS are really getting to know me

Now I'm sure they have ich. When I came into work this morning, there are two new grains of salt on each fish. I added more dissolved salt this morning and now it is at .3 salt. I have read that salt may take care of the ich. How long will it take?

Thanks!

Sorry it has been a few days since anyone has responded, how are the fish?

Wow, How did I miss this? Sorry Pfargo. I don't know how I missed your thread this long......


But, you are doing everything you should be. Increase gravel vacs to daily if you use gravel. If you DO use gravel, try to only use an inch or two maximum. Less is better.

How many gallons is your tank? Optimally, the bio-wheel200 is suitable for no larger than a 20 gallon tank.

How are your goldies?

Are they eating?



Post back soon.

Paul

Paul and Laurie - thanks for checking in. Ellen and Perry are both still flashing and Perry's dorsal fin is clamped sometimes. I think the ich is improving although it is difficult to tell. My tank is still not showing nitrites. I am on my 4th week and I put in about 2 cups of gravel from a seasoned tank last weekend. I have been keeping up on water changes using Prime, .3% salt (for ich) and PH 7.0 by Aquarium Pharaceuticals. I have treated the tank with Parasite Clear Tank Buddies in case of parasites. It is not supposed to disturb params.

Ellen and Perry are still skiddish. What I thought were sores on Ellen must have been lost scales from flashing. They don't look any worse. They are still eating. Yesterday, Ellen hung out in a corner swimming up then floating down all day. She was not going to the top of the tank for air or anything, but just going up and down in the one corner. They both hide behind plants a bit.

Params this morning are all zero. I bought another Penguine 200 so now I have a total of 400 gph filtering.

Any more advice? Thanks!

Your doing just fine. Keep it up.

At 0.3% salinity, ich wont last much longer than a week. So, your well on your way to destroying them all.


Paul

Its important you get your tank cycled as it will be part of cause of sickness in your fish. I use a product called Sera Toxivec during cycling if fish are present as it aids keeping ammonia and nitrite down during cycling. Sometimes moving media from an already cycled tank helps speed up the process. Hope your fish get better soon

Well, I came in to my office this morning to do a water change and there are several more tiny white spots on Ellen, my Oranda. I don't see anything new with Perry, my fantail. Is this normal after having my tank salted at .3% for 4 days? Could this possibly be Velvet disease? The spots are very tiny like graint of sand, but are shiny like salt or sugar. They are both still flashing, but not lethargic or anything else.

I had 0 readings for everything Friday night at 7pm. This morning I have 1ppm ammonia and 0 Nitrites/Nitrates. I am of course doing a large water change right now. I am using Prime, Proper PH 7, and conditioning salt to .3%. With the seasoned gravel from my co-workers tank and being in my 4th week of cycling, I can't believe I am still not seeing nitrites.

Should I get a hospital tank and try to get that cycled without fish and go ahead and treat my show tank with medication for ich or velvet with the fish in it? Or, should I wait since they are not lethargic yet? I just want to do what's best to keep them alive through this.

Thanks for any advice you may have to offer!

The observation of more white spots appearing is actually to be expected. According to the life cycle of ich and the average temperature of most aquariums, that is.

When an ich spot (egg case) falls off of a fish, it sits in the gravel for 48 hours and then the membrane around the agg case dissolves and releases the infective juveniles (tomites) to find more fish to infect. If these juveniles don't find a host within 48 hours, they will die. So, it seems that the very few ich spots that you saw appear recently are the last ones to make it to the fish.

If you have or can get an aquarium heater, you can speed this process up by raising the temperature to 80 degrees. At this temp, their life cycle happens much quicker and they will die out sooner.


Stick to your guns. The salting WILL kill the ich, you just have to be patient.

How are things going?

Thanks for checking in! I am trying to be patient. It seems the ich spots are fewer, but they are still flashing. I feel so bad for them. I am in my 5th week of cycling and still not seeing nitrites. I need the tank to cycle so I can cut down the stress of water params and water changes. The salt does seem to be helping the ich. How long do they keep up the flashing? I want them to be able to relax and enjoy their home.

Its a matter of waiting out the ich now............

I always like to read these threads so I can learn as much as possible, but I noticed something I wanted to mention just in case-I hope you will not take offense and if you already knew this stuff please ignore my totally unsolicted advice.

You mentioned above that your aquarium salt scoop was one tablespoon and that 2 scoops per 5 gallons was close to .1 %. To my knowledge two tablespoons per 5 gallons is actually much closer to .2%. It sounds like your fish are not having adverse reactions to the salt so it is probably fine, but I am a details nut so I thought I would mention it. If I am wrong I am sure someone here will correct me.

Also, since your cycling is taking awhile, I just wanted to make sure that you are not cleaning out the filter or changing the pads in it? You want to leave the filter alone as much as possible while trying to cycle, and in general. if it gets really gunky then you only want to rinse with tank water since tap water will kill all of the good bacteria. It sounds like you know what you are doing, so again apologies if you knew this already. I just remember when I was cycling my first tank and made this error right off.

Also, I hope your fish have a speedy recovery and it sounds like they are very cute...any pictures in the works? Best of luck to you and your fish.

Hi Jen - No offense taken. I need all the help I can get. I am not a math pro, but here was my logic:

1 teaspoon salt per gallon = .1%
3 teaspoon = 1 Tablespoon (scoop)
1 Tablespoon (scoop) per gallon = .3% salt

2 Tablespoons (2 scoops) per 5 gallons = .12%

I am putting 1 scoop (3 teaspoons) per gallon
Is this not right? I hope I'm not over-salting them!

Yes, you are overdosing by a small margin. BUT, read on and you'll see how it isn't a big deal.......





To accurately measure salt for dosing, one would need to use a digital gram scale.


3/4 level teaspoon of regular aquarium salt (doc wellfish) per US gallon = 0.1% salinity

2 1/2 lvl teaspoons per US gallon = 0.3%


Alternately:


1 gram per litre = 0.1%

3 gram per litre = 0.3%


However, since the measure of salts effects on osmoregulation is logarithmic, the exact dosage isn't as important as one would think. That's why we try to keep things simple and say that a level teaspoon per gallon is fine.

Goldfish can actually handle a VERY high salinity. I kept Spud at 0.8% salinity for a month straight!! Thats not a typo either.......

Paul

HMMMM. Interesting. Thanks for the info. I can't imagine how confusing it would get using the 3/4 teaspoon per gallon for those of us who are mathematically challenged. I'm glad to hear that the dose I am using is OK though.

Wow, .8% was that for ich?

Thanks for clarifying that Paul, I just wanted to make sure it wouldn't hurt anything...I los two very small fish to salt overdose so I always worry about that stuff. :-)

Nah, the high salinity was for treating a VERY salt resistant chilodonella strain. But, it's definitely good to know that goldfish can handle that much salt.

Here's a good page on osmoregulation: http://www.tiem.utk.edu/~gross/bioed/webmo...oregulation.htm


I forgot to mention that the average size of the salt crystals are the most important factor when dosing salt by volume. Some companies have recently added aquarium salt to their catalogs but they are using a much finer grain of salt crystal. Every available online source of salt dosage for specific salinities refers to the average crystal size that can be found in Doc Wellfish aquarium salt. For this reason, following the directions on the packaging is the best protocol....

I was using Top Fin (PetSmart) Conditioning salt. I have switched to API Aquarium Salt. I am haing trouble getting it to dissolve though. I put it in a bowl a day ahead of water change in HOT water and the next day, there are still salt crystals in the bottom of the bowl. Has anyone else had this problem?

BTW, I have put Ellen and Perry in a new 10gl tank at home while my big tank cycles. I have a heater for this tank. While it is a new, uncycled tank, they are acting much better. The flashing is nearly gone now. It was almost instant. I was afraid it might stress them out by moving them. I wonder if they like the warmer waer? I have it at 80F since they have ich. Ellen used to hang out in athe same corner of the other tank and flash a lot. They are both swimming around and coming to the front of the tank to say hi.

One problem with the increased temp though. It SMELLS! Is there any cure for this problem>

BTW, I think this thread can be move since they are doing much better now! Thannks to everyone for the help!

They are acting better in the new tank because the populations of the parasites in the new tank are still too low to be considered an epidemic. Once and if the parasites increase in numbers (it wont take long) they will begin to flash and act bothered again. Especially if the tank is heated. If I were you, I wouldn't keep any goldfish in a heated environment. They are, after all, considered "coldwater" fish.....


Paul

I thought I as supposed to raise he temp to make the life cycle of the ich go faster and that ich didn't do well in warme water.

My two goldies were kept at 78F when I bought them from PetSmart. They keep al of their fish at the same temp. Maybe they just becam used to the warm water?

If it is not going to help speed up curing the ich then I will lower the temp slowly back to room temp. Does it help get rid of ich quicker?

The only time one should raise the temperature for parasites is if they know for sure that there is only one type of parasite prevalent. If ich is the only parasite on the fish, then heating to 80 degrees once the salinity has reached 0.3% would help speed up their life cycle witch makes the treatment go faster. The only thing that heat does is make the ich live faster and reproduce faster. It just speeds the process up. In truth, ich, LIKES warmer water. The same goes for all parasites, they all like the water to be warm so that they can breed faster. So, if one were to raise the temperature for a treatment of ich and they didn't know that flukes (salt does nothing to flukes) were also infecting the fish, then the flukes would multiply faster even while the ich was being dessimated by the salt.

In short, raising the heat during any treatment is a make or break situation. One needs to be sure that there aren't any unknown population of parasites waiting for their chance to explode on the scene.


For the reasons mentioned above, I never suggest raising the heat unless the situation is dire such as dropsied conditions. Either that, or I know the person has a microscope and can be sure of other possible parasites.


I hope that helped clarify a bit.......


Paul

Just wanted to add something about dissolving the salt...try using more water. Only so much salt can be dissolved in water before it becomes saturated and can hold no more. Stirring helps too. Good luck, I hate dissolving salt.

Goodness! Everytime I think I'm doing something right and good for my goldies, I find out I might be doing more harm than good. I am getting the tank back to room temp. Thanks for the info!

I will also use more water for dissolving the salt. I already stir like crazy.