I started cycling my tank with fish 15 days ago. I have a 3" Oranda and a 2" Fantail in a 29gl tank.

I use Seachum 7.0 Liquid Neutral Regulator conditioner at water changes to reduce PH (it is very high out of tap). PH is 7.4 after using conditioner. This product also removes Chlorine, Chloramine and ammonia. However, my ammonia reaches about 1ppm before I change the water. (as advised w/ my temp and PH)

Temp. is 74F.

I also add salt, 1 tsp per gl at water changes.

Filter is a Penguine 200 biowheel (am going to add another filter after cycled)

Why am I not seeing Nitrites yet????

Thanks!

Cycling can take weeks and weeks and weeks. I have had it take 10 weeks or more to move clear through the ammonia to the nitrite and finally to the nitrate stage.

You are growing a colony of beneficial bacteria that process the ammonia into nitrite. Those bacteria are available "everywhere", so, with time, you will eventually get them setting up shop in your filter media. (If you build it, they will come). You can speed this process along by introducing a "mommy and daddy" bacteria to start the family. If you do not have any seasoned media to begin this process, you will simply have to wait.

The warmer the water, the faster it will happen. (80sF being ideal for bacteria if not for the fish). A pH about where you have it is also good.

When I cycled my most recent tanks, I seeded with seasoned media. It took about 12 days for the ammonia to subside, but another 21-23 days for the nitrites to go away. That was about 4 weeks total of almost daily water changes to preserve the fish's health. AND it was with seasoned media!

Patience, Grasshopper - it will happen. It just takes time.

Daryl, thanks for your advice. OK. I'll get a heater and bring the temp up to 80sF. There is a lady here in my office building with a cycled tank. Could I possibly use something from her tank to get my cycle going? What would I use? She keeps tropical fish so freshwater. There is quite a bit of algae in her tank though. Is that a problem?

Can I use "Cycle" when cycling with fish?

The reason I'm in such a hurry (other than I am impatient by nature) is I have to have surgery June 14th and I won't be able to carry those heavy buckets of water for a week to do my water changes. I MIGHT be able to talk my hubby into doing it for me, but that's a big MIGHT. He won't be easy to live with if he has to do it as my tank is at work not at home. Oh, well if he has to he HAS to. I am the WIFE :-).

If you can just answer the question about using something from my co-workers tank, that would be great.

Thanks!!!

Hubbies are dears, are they not, but BOY can they get whiney when they have to lift a bit of water!

If your friend's tank is healthy and cycled then it is PERFECT! Take a peek and see what sort of media she has going. If it anything you can stick in a bag and ram into your filter you are in business! Buy a bit of the same type of media and take out about 1/3 of hers, replacing it with the new media you have bought. Mix them up so they are all touching each other - the old and the new. Her tank may bump a tiny bit - not enough to worry about if at all, but should recover within a day or two. Then take the "seasoned" media and mix it up with the "new" stuff you have left. Ram that into your filter and set it going.

This will give your filter a good start at a beneficial bacterial population of BOTH types of good bacteria and should help it cycle within a week or two at most.

In the absence of compatible media, you can use some of her gravel, but that is far less efficiant. I would suggest bagging it and sticking it in your filter, too, if that is what you need.

Cycle - I cannot find any description of the actual chemical makeup, but I suspect that it is a water treatment that detoxifies chlorine and such. It may even do a bit of the ammonia/nitrite in the tank..... ????

If you have a cycling tank, particularly when it is in the nitrite state, a bit of Amquel+ or Prime is an excellent product - they detoxify the ammonia/nitrite by binding it in a form that is benign to the fish, yet still available to the beneficial bacteria. Putting in aquarium salt to the salinity of 0.1% is also helpful in protecting the fish's gills with nitrite.

You can use Cycle, but I've heard hit and miss reviews about it actually working. I think your best bet is to do what Daryl suggested with the seasoned media from another tank. The only product I've heard consistently good reviews about is BioSpira - but that is difficult to find and it's easy to get a bad batch (got too cold/warm, too old, etc.).

Let me start by saying I am not a water keeping expert and the following information is what has worked for me.

I used Cycle on 2 of my tanks and it is working very well. Cut my cycle time in half so far. It also doesnt seem to matter about the size of the tank regarding the time it takes, although you use bigger doses in the larger tank. If you look in the bottle you will see particles suspended in the solution. I would assume this is the bacteria cultures.

I havent tried BioSpira but the PetsMart here sells it so you should be able to get it from one in your area I would guess.

Also I may get yelled at for this but when cycling the tank I dont do water changes until I see the Amonia and Nitrites at zero and the Nitrates hit about 30-40ppm. The reason for this is I dont want to remove any of the bacteria that may be in the water or starting up in the gravel.

I Cycled 2 tanks without fish and 2 with Fish. The tanks with fish got recommended doses of Amquel+ and are doing fine.

I would recommend caution when using anything from someone elses tank though as you could introduce nasties into your own tank but this is just my opinion.

Please dont hurt me Daryl. lol

Everyone has their own way, but I personally don't think that losing some bacteria down the drain is worth risking the lives of my beloved pets. Any levels of toxins can have lasting effects on our fish and that is just not a risk I am willing to take. When my cycle has bumped, I water change, water change, and water change some more - it may take longer for my cycle to fully return, but my arms are buff and my fish are happy and healthy. Just my opinion.

Good point about being careful with someone else's filter media - check out their fish in person to see the condition they are in. Nasty stuff can certainly be transferred to your tank. If you are worried about that, there's always continuing on with the old-fashioned way. There is no rushing things in this hobby, that's what I've learned!

This may sound really stupid, but what exactly is media? What exactly is meant by "ram it into my filter"? This is my first tank. I appreciate all the advice here. It is great!

Media is whatever is used in your filter for the beneficial bacteria to attach to..... (Lousy grammar -sorry! )

Anyway - some filters use sponges. Some use ceramic rings, others use lava rock or sintered glass (white, man-made lava rock). A bio-wheel is another platform for the beneficial bacteria to attach to - but these are not transferable. There are "newer" types of media called bioballs, too. Some filters have baskets or clamshells you can put the media into. Others have stacked sponges or cartridges that have sponges.

Depending on what type of filter you have, you may be dealing with any of the above - or none. I run all my filters with SOME sort of extra biological platform for beneficial bacteria other than a bio-wheel. It is not hard to take a net bag (or a leg of old,clean panty hose) and tie some ceramic cylindars or sintered glass into it, and drop it into the filter box of just about any type of HOB filter.

I am particularly fond of Eheim's new Substrat Pro - sintered glass spheres. The original substrates were sharp cornered and I have found it much easier to stuff a filter with the spheres than it was to use the odd shapes and sharp edges of the original. I have bio-balls (just OK in my book), floss( gets too dirty too fast), sponges (dirt is a problem, but can be cleaned fairly easily), bio-wheels (not transferable between tanks and do not hold as much as ceramic or sintered glass), and ceramic cylindars/sintered glass/biospheres (my favorite). I usually drop extra bags of this type of media behind decorations or plants in tanks, too - to colonate a bit. Anytime I need extra media for a qt tank or a new tank, I can draw these bags for nearly instant cycle. (in the tank is healthy!)

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl36...isubstrat1liter

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl36...ubstratpro250ml

Ok. I understand media now. I have learned a lot in the last three weeks! I really appreciate everyone's input. I have not decided if I want to use any media from my co-worker's tank or not. I don't know how well it is cared for. It has a lot of green algae all in it. There is only one fish. I have not kept an eye on how long her fish live. Her office is on the other side of the building. I will have to think about all of my options for a while before I decide.

Thanks again for everyones help. I need all I can get!

I wouldn't worry about the green algae... green water equals healthy water If the water was bad, nothing would be growing in it. I'd take that as somewhat of a good sign. It also means her tank is mature. It doesn't really say anything about her fish, but it means her params probably aren't totally out of whack. I'd want to see the tank myself I think.

Oh you will think this fish stuff is SO easy when your tank has cycled

Hang in there! You've had some great advice here. I remember the first tank set up I did, I had no media to seed with so it was changing the water, changing the water, and finally once I sat down I'd get back up and change the water again. If you can find mature media, you still have to change the water often, but it seems to cycle much faster. One day soon you will wake up and your tank is cycled! The heavens shall open that day and the angels will sing.

Angel, I hear ya about the water changes. My husband thinks I'm absolutely nuts to go through all this work for "fish". I keep telling him they are not just fish, they are now my pets, a part of my family and I have an obligation. He still thinks I'm crazy. I've alsways been a little crazy so it's OK.

imtammyo - it is good to know that the algae is a good sign! I talked with my co-worker yesterday and she said the fish she has in there now, she has had for a couple of years with no deaths or disease. Can I buy some media and put it in her tank then transfer to mine? She doesn't really have any media other than the gravel and her filter. How long would I need to leave new media in her tank to collect the good bacteria to transfer to mine?

imtammyo, I have been so obsessed with this fish stuff that I had a dream I went on vacation and I met you in a store that you owned. It was like an antique store. Too funny! :-)

Thanks again for the information!

I agree with Tammy - you will want to see the tank. What sort of filter does she have? If it is one that has floss in it, then she should not mind you taking some - I expect she will change out the floss on a fairly regular basis and it is no big deal. Just cut off about 1/3 of her floss and replace it with some new stuff. Put that floss bit in your tank with your choice of media surrounding it. Since you already have your tank going - you should see results quickly.

If you and she can agree - you can take a scoop of her gravel - any amount that would fit in your filter with your media of choice. Scoop out a quart of her water and rinse her gravel clean of any loose waste and debris - so that it is "clean". Bag the gravel in a net bag or panty hose leg. Put it in your filter so that your media of choice is in contact if possible - if not make it so the water flows past the gravel to your media.

In about a month, you can take the gravel out of your filter, boil it out and return it to her - clean and healthy - with a great big thank you and a smile. It will have done the job.

Since you have the tank running, the fish in it at this time and they actively need the bacterial help, it seems a bit "late" to try to add media to her tank, wait 2-4 weeks for it to season and then tranfer it to your tank. That could have been done prior to setting up your tank, but right now, you might as well do it right in your tank - it will be quicker and more efficiant....

Thanks Daryl. Do I scoop the quart of her water to rinse the gravel in? Should I poor the water back into her tank? I will check out her tank today and use my test kit for params.

Well, that is certainly an interesting dream you had about me I DO love antiques... hmm maybe that is a sign...?

Yes, rinse her gravel in the tank water. If you rinsed it in tap water, the chlorine and such could kill the bacteria. Just dump the water out after, it'll be gunky and she won't want that in her tank. How did her tank look? How were her params?

Tammy, that is funny since you like antiques. Pretty weird!

Well her params were Ammonia 0, Nitrinites 0, and Nitrates 40. The nitrates are a little high, but that is much better than no nitrates and .5 ammonia! I'll take it.

I am going to get some of her gravel this weekend when I do a water change. She didn't have a problem with helping me out. She and I are the big animal lovers in the office.

I can't wait. I am going to net a couple of cups of her gravel and put it in my filter. Should I put some anywhere else?

I am SO excited.

After I put the seasoned gravel from her tank into mine, do I still do regular water changes while it is still trying to cycle?

First priority: your fish. Second priority: your cycle. Do water changes when your params tell you to and if it slows down your cycle a little bit, so be it. Good luck! You'll be so happy when it's done.

I put the seasomed gravel in this morning after a 75% water change. My ammonia was still reading at .50 after the large water change! I will do another one tomorrow!

I posted on 911 today too as Ellen has a couple of smal sores. It looks like she lost two scales. Please check out my topic in 911 when you gt a chance

Thanks!!!

Have you tested the water from your tap? Mine has about 1pp of amonia in it so I have to treat all water i use in the tanks with Amquel+ and let it sit for about an hour. It still reads 1pp of amonia but the amquel detoxes it and my tank bacteria eat it up pretty fast.

Sorry to hear about Ellen. Hopefully she will recover soon.

When I checked the water today, it was between 0 and .25! Cool. Maybe it was leftover Amquel+ in the tank after the change yesterday. I am going to start using Prime since the Amquel seems to remove a lot of oxygen and my fish gasp for a few hours even with aeration in the tank.

Thanks for the info!

How long should I expect it to take the tank to cycle with the seasoned gravel crammed into my filter? I also put a ball of it under the intake tube in the tank.

The water is really cloudy since I added the gravel. They now have ich and I haveincreased salt to .3. The health probles are posted in 911.

Thanks for your help!

Oh, man, I am sorry. I hope that gravel did not bring in ich - it is notorious for hiding in gravel and emerging when new fish are available or the gravel is stirred.

Depending on how much bacteria was in the gravel you took - surface or underneath gravel, etc. - as well sa how much you actually have, it can take 2-3 days or 2-3 weeks. Since you have not seen any nitrites yet, I would expect you to start seeing them in a few days. The type of beneficial bacteria that processes the nitrites to nitrates are more fastidious and picky - they take longer......

I am pretty sure ich was already in my tank. Ellen had a spot on her before I put the gravel in. I was not sure it was ich, but I was very suspicious.

Will I still see nitrites since her tank had no nitrites, but nitrates of 40ppm? I was hoping that would allow me to completely skip the nitrite process.

Is the cloudy water a good sign that bacteria are beginning to gorw or is it something I should be concerned about?

BTW, Thanks for responding!

So much depends on the gravel you got - whether it was on the surface or a deep scoop that incorporated a volume of less populated stones....

I would love to see you go directly to nitrates. It is possible, but unlikely, though. You have brought in a small "starter" population of beneficial bacteria. There are not enough to process all the waste you have in your tank. They have to grow to to that job. If you have given them a good platform to grow on - good media that is better than gravel - they may grow very quickly. IF you have a "tough" place to grow - or are counting on the gravel in your tank for a large part of the cycle, they it will take longer.

In general, the first type of bacteria that process the ammonia are a pretty robust type - they will pop up whenever there is ammonia to be had - and since you have a starter population - you should see them growing and processing shortly.

The second type of bacteria that processes the nitrites is annoyingly stubborn and can take longer. You should have also introduced a starter population of those into your tank - but until there is nitrite for them to "eat", they cannot grow. If your first type takes over a week to produce nitrite, the second type may die back substantially......

Thanks again Daryl! Well, it is a waiting game. I have ich in my tank and am salting at .3%. I have .25 ammonia and still no nitrites or nitrates. I put a large amount of the gravel in my filter right by the bio-wheel, some in another portion of the filter so that water hits it before going through the filter cloth, and some right under the intake tube. The tank I took it from has an undergravel filter and I took some from the top and some from the bottom. I sure hope I get nitrites soon to help feed the nitrates so they don't die off.

This cycling stuff is tough. Yesterday was the end of the third week for the fish in the tank. I will check back when (if) I ever see any changes in the cycle processing. Thanks for all of your help!

You will see it. It really does work. I am sure that at times you feel really frustrated and find it hard to believe - I certainly have had those type of thoughts in the past ("Will the tank ever REALLY cycle? Maybe there is something wrong with this particular tank and it will never cycle! Am I doing something wrong?")

But in all reality - it REALLY REALLY works. Honest.

It just takes time.

One day it will just suprise you.

(In my experience - with a seeded filter, you may find that the longer it takes for the ammonia to drop, the quicker the nitrites will go to nitrates, too!!!! One day you will test it and WHAM! it will be GREAT! )

Thanks for the much needed encouragement! I sure hope it works that way in my case.

Stay the course. They will come. Ive had one cycling for 4 weeks now and im still waiting on the nitrite bact to ramp up. My amonia was zero so I added 2 caps to keep them alive. The tank is going through a fishless cycle though.

I am curious as to your amonia reading of .25. It sounds like you dont have enough of a colony to metabalize whats being produced in the tank so far.

Hunter - Thanks for responding! I am not sure what you mean by not having enough of a colony to metabalize what is in the tank. Are you saying too much ammonia or not enought to produce nitrites? Can you please explain? I'm new to this stuff!

Sorry, I guess it was a bit vague. With the .25 Amononia level it makes me think you dont have enough bacteria that eats the amonia. Thats not to say you dont have some. If you are getting nitrites in the tank then you probably have a colony starting.

I have a high amonia and chlorine content in my tap water so I have to treat with Amquel+ before adding to the tank. If I didnt the chlorine would probably kill off some of my bact colonies and the higher amonia level is toxic as your are aware. After a water change my tank amonia will go up slightly but its usually gone in about a day. The rest of the time my tank amonia level is 0ppm (unless I have a bump in the cycle).

The cycling process can be frustrating. Ive been staring at a 30G tank in my living room for a month now that has no fish in it waiting for it to cycle. I do however know that its moving along by the test readings. First the Amonia level was about 1.5ppm, then it started dropping and the Nitrites started climbing. the Amonia eventually dropped to 0ppm but the Nitrites were off the chart. I didnt see much Nitrate in the tank so that told me there werent any or enough Nitrifying bac in the tank. Now the Nitates are slowly rising and the Nitrite levels are slowly comming down. I know that the Nitrite eating bacteria colonies are growing as a result.

Something that helps me is to write down my test results everytime. This way I can look back on it and see the progress its making. The down side is that it will take awhile to show results and you might think its not working. In a fishless tank I only test once a week. Anymore and I would drive myself crazy. If im cycling with fish in the tank, I test every 2 days and treat with Amquel+ once a week until the cycle completes.

lol, I dont know if I explained it better or made it more confusing.

The explanation helps me understand what ou meant. The issue in my cycling process is that I have not gotten any nitrites yet to eat the ammonia. I am trying to wait patiently, but it is just going so slow even with the added gravel from a co-workers tank after three days, I still see no nitrites to eat the ammonia and start the nitrates .

Still no nitrites!!!! Arrggghhhh!

Whoooo -K.............


Let's see : you have a fish in the tank. The fish is producing ammonia. You are getting a consistant reading of this ammonia - so you know the fish is alive. ( ) You tested the tap water and you have zero ammonia in the tap water.

Has the ammonia reading every dropped? IT is possible that you are going to pass the nitrite step and go directly to nitrates - not passing GO and not collecting $200?

You have no nitrites either in the tank or the tap water.

What is your nitrate reading in the tank? What is your nitrate reading in the tap?

Hi Daryl! Here is the situation.

I have 1ppm ammonia in my tap water. I am using Prime which brings it down to 0. In about 24 hours, ammonia will increase to .25 - .50 then another 24 hours I'm around 1ppm and I do a 75% water change and bring ammonia back to 0 with Prime. Supposedly the Prime only detoxifies the ammonia, leaving it available for the nitrites and nitrates (if I had any). I usually add Prime again the second morning when the ammonia is at 1ppm to get the fish through the day until I can do water change after work.

I currently add .3% salt for ich (which is improving), Prime, and PROPER Ph7.0 as my tap Ph is over 8.

The ammonia reading has never dropped on its own without Prime, Amquel+, or water change.

In the tank currently ammonia is 1ppm - water change today. 0 Nitrites and 0 Nitrates.

I have not tested the tap water for Nitrates and Nitrites, only ammonia.

I have a 3" Oranda and 3" Fantail (he is growing fast).

Am I doing something wrong or am I just impatient?

Thanks for your input!

OK, I am going to try a fishless cycle in another tank. Can I use a rubbermaid for this and put it outside to bring up the temp instead of using a heater? I have an extra filter I can use in this tank while it cycles.

After I get it cycled, can I just directly add the cycled water to my uncycled tank? I an thinking about a 15 - 20 gl rubbermaid container and my uncycled tank is 29 gl.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks!

OK, I am going to try a fishless cycle in another tank. Can I use a rubbermaid for this and put it outside to bring up the temp instead of using a heater? I have an extra filter I can use in this tank while it cycles.

After I get it cycled, can I just directly add the cycled water to my uncycled tank? I an thinking about a 15 - 20 gl rubbermaid container and my uncycled tank is 29 gl.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks!

that should work

The fishless cycle will take you just as long as what you're doing now. Are you wanting it to move faster or are you wanting to set up another tank? There is no rushing when it comes to the cycle - try to be patient.

If you do the fishless cycle, the tub you are talking about is fine. Put the other filter in there. Add some form of ammonia (pure household ammonia with no suds, or some have used urine...) to get the bacteria growing. This takes a while, as you know. When your tub is cycled, you take the filter media out of the filter and put it in the filter of the uncycled tank. There isn't very much bacteria at all in the water - it is attached to the surfaces in your tank (filter media, gravel, etc.), so you won't need to transfer the water.

Your cycle is probably taking longer because of what you have to do to make your tap water safe for your fish. It WILL come around, really! I think you should try to stick it out this way - trying to cycle two tanks is going to take just as long and be twice the work.

Well, I bought a 10 gallon tank yesterday. I feel like all of the salt I have had to add to my tank for ich is slowing down the cycle process as well as the large water changes. My thoughts now are to transfer my two goldies to the 10 gallon tank and do water changes daily. I am getting some more media from my co workers tank to put in my show tank after I remove the salt. I will keep the ammonia level around 3-4ppm and not change any more water until it is cycled. then I can put my goldies back in a nice cycled tank.

It will be much easier to do the water change in the 10 gallon tank rather than the 29 gallon tank. Plus, my show tank is in my office and I will have the 10 gallon at home where it will be easier to do water changes. I have to have minor surgery mid-june and will be able to handle the small water changes at home, but I couldn't do it on the large tank at work for 1-2 weeks after my proceedure. This is why I have been so impatient about the process. Panic mode

I plan on using the 10 gallon tank as a qt/hospital tank after this cycle stuff is over.

Well, I bought a 10gl tank to use for hospital/Qt tank. Ellen and Perry have been moved to this tank so I can let the main tank cycle on its own now. I am appy to say that Ellen and Perry are enjoying their small tank right now! I have a heater for it and temp is raised to 80F and am salting for the ich. Ellen is no longer flashing and is not staying in a corner. She is swimming happily with Perry and comes to the front of the tank to say hi instead of flashing away and hiding. Could they prefer the warmer water all the time and not just during treatment?

The only problem is the tank smells very bad and I wonder if it is because of the warmer water. Is there anything to do to keep the smell down with the hea up? The only things I'm putting in the tank are Prime and salt.

I am excited to report that after I added gravel from my co workers tank, I am getting a nitrate reading of 40!! I still have high ammonia and no nitrites, but it has only been 24 hours since I added the gravel. It feels great to get any reading other than just ammonia. I hope the ammonia starts going down soon. I can't wait to get my fishies back in their show tank. They are in a 10 gallon uncycled tank at home. I have been doing 80% water changes everyday in that tank.

I hope it won't be too much longer I am EXCTIED!

ive been trying out this new way of tank cycling and its:
*drumroll*
beans!!!!
well not actualy beans but more like bean roots.
one thing i know about farming(and i know alot, unlike spelling) it that some farming cycles contribute the planting of bean plants every few years into the soil.
why?
bean roots have theese nodes all over them, and theese nodes are filled with nitrobacter and nitromonas, the bacteria in filters.
so i started picking theese nodes and crushing them then putting them into the filter. ive tried this method a few times with the local beans and so far its been working fine.
i would appreciate it if other people would tell me if this method works with any other plants.

beans 43\/3r
lol

That is very interesting! How long does it tank a tank to cycle from beginning to end using this method? Where can an average Joe like me find these plants?

the ones i use actualy comes from the beans my little brother planted in the garden a few months ago, and i think most bean plants have the nodes in their roots.
as for how long it takes to cycle the tank i find that the bacteria starts to work instantly, reducing ammonia from 40ppm to almost 0ppm in a day.
as for where you can get them, i think they use them in corn farms in the USA for crop rotation(i think its planted in the soil every 4 years or so to enrich the soil), so you should ask any local farmers for it.

I HAVE THEM!!! Nitrites are hear. My two goldies are in my 10 gl at home now for 2 weeks and 80% daily water changes. My 29 gl tank at work was spiked with a co workers gravel and water 12 days ago. I brought up ammonia to 4ppm (no fishies in tank). Just today, I get a reading of .25 nitrites, 4ppm ammonia and 80 ppm nirtates.

I am finally on my way to cycling! If I had to do it all over again, I would not get any fish before cycling my tank!!! Hoever, I love my two goldies and probably wouldn't have them if I had waited. I will move them to the 29 gl as soon as it is done cycling.