Full Version: Hardiest Fancy?
Hi I've kept a lionhead with a Fan tail for 9 months but unfortunately the lionhead seemed to develop an internal infection and died quickly before i could treat. I have decided not to treat the fantail as he seems very happy and healthy, constantly foraging for food. I've found fantails to be pretty tough but are there any other breeds that are quite disease resistant? I've lost a lionhead before and am thinking of getting an oranda to keep my fantail company. My water parameters are fine except kh and gh low despite adding dolomite stone. Regards Paul
When you say "low", how low do you mean? Having a low kH can result ikn an unstable pH. A bouncing pH - even as "little" as a tenyh of a degree is actually a very large amount. This can stress fish - allowing other opportunistic diseases and parasites access.
As far as your average fantail being more hardy than your average liohead - yes - you will find that that there is a degree of difference between the two. Generally (VERY generally) any goldfish that sports mutations that create a "fancy breed" is less hardy than the original single tailed "wild" type fish. This is why all goldfish will eventually revert back to that type without intervention. The more mutant representations on a fish, the less hardy it will be. So a fish sporting telescope/bubble eyes, with a large wen and a long tail, pearl scales and...... golly I cannot list them all - would have difficulty living to adulthood without great care. A common goldfish can often withstand condtions that would make a fancy go belly up within a day.
An Oranda is also a fancy goldfish. Their shorter, deeper bodies squish their intestines up, making constipation and floating a potential ( at least more so than in their longer bodied cousins). A heavy wen can, occasionally, impair vision, making feeding a bit problomatic. Neither condition is very serious in the majority of fish.
Within any breed or any population, you will always find the fish that are stronger, hardier, bigger, more resistant than others. Within a single spawning, you find fish that do not live more than a day all the way to ones that so outshoot their siblings in size that they soon start to canabalize. So much will depend on the actual genetic makeup of the fish you get. You could get one that is genetically built like a cactus thorn or one that is built like a delicate flower. The former will thrive in most conditions, the latter will wither in anything but careful culture.
I would not be afraid of lionheads. Some of my biggest, strongest fish have been Ranchu/Lionhead. I would not be afraid of Orandas. Some of mine have been HUGE monsters of the tanks. But I have also had weaker ones - ones that floated without gel food, ones that could not withstand nitrates over 5ppm.... etc. The whole package of the individual fish - genetic makeup, how they were raised, how old they are, how you feed, how you keep them - can all determine the hardiness of an individual fish.
Where you get your fish can make a difference. What the fish comes in with - ie: parasites and disease - can make a difference. You may have something in your tank that the fantail was "immune" to that killed your lionhead. This may attack anything you place in the tank in the future....
Good luck. Do not be afraid of a fancy fish. Just be choosy.
As far as your average fantail being more hardy than your average liohead - yes - you will find that that there is a degree of difference between the two. Generally (VERY generally) any goldfish that sports mutations that create a "fancy breed" is less hardy than the original single tailed "wild" type fish. This is why all goldfish will eventually revert back to that type without intervention. The more mutant representations on a fish, the less hardy it will be. So a fish sporting telescope/bubble eyes, with a large wen and a long tail, pearl scales and...... golly I cannot list them all - would have difficulty living to adulthood without great care. A common goldfish can often withstand condtions that would make a fancy go belly up within a day.
An Oranda is also a fancy goldfish. Their shorter, deeper bodies squish their intestines up, making constipation and floating a potential ( at least more so than in their longer bodied cousins). A heavy wen can, occasionally, impair vision, making feeding a bit problomatic. Neither condition is very serious in the majority of fish.
Within any breed or any population, you will always find the fish that are stronger, hardier, bigger, more resistant than others. Within a single spawning, you find fish that do not live more than a day all the way to ones that so outshoot their siblings in size that they soon start to canabalize. So much will depend on the actual genetic makeup of the fish you get. You could get one that is genetically built like a cactus thorn or one that is built like a delicate flower. The former will thrive in most conditions, the latter will wither in anything but careful culture.
I would not be afraid of lionheads. Some of my biggest, strongest fish have been Ranchu/Lionhead. I would not be afraid of Orandas. Some of mine have been HUGE monsters of the tanks. But I have also had weaker ones - ones that floated without gel food, ones that could not withstand nitrates over 5ppm.... etc. The whole package of the individual fish - genetic makeup, how they were raised, how old they are, how you feed, how you keep them - can all determine the hardiness of an individual fish.
Where you get your fish can make a difference. What the fish comes in with - ie: parasites and disease - can make a difference. You may have something in your tank that the fantail was "immune" to that killed your lionhead. This may attack anything you place in the tank in the future....
Good luck. Do not be afraid of a fancy fish. Just be choosy.
Hi Daryl thanks for the good advice. When i first found my Lionhead at deaths door, I isolated and also added Malachite green and an antibiotic treatment to my main tank. I decided not to continue treatment as the fantail seems to be thriving. I increased the temp to 80 degrees. Do you think I should complete a course of treatment in the tank as a precaution? If i add another fish I may keep it in a separate tank for 5-7 days to see how it does b4 risking my fantail. My concern about adding a treatment to the main tank is the fantail may be stressed and made ill by the chemicals
ps should i add more dolomite stone to buffer the ph? I thought i'd added enough but it doesn't seem to have any efect on the GH and kh. The ph is stable whenever i test it.
Daryl.... Speaking of Orandas. Are the darker mutations, ie chocolates, blacks, blues, less hardy in general than the pink orange red kind? I seem to have found that the Orandas most affected by an outbreak of disease have been the darker ones. All are now gone, leaving me with my Calicos, Reds and Red & Whites.
As I understand it, dolomite is a form of limestone - calcium, magnesium, and a carbonate. That carbonate is, ideally what you want for your kH..... If it is not raising your kH sufficiantly, then I have to assume that it is not doing the job for some reason.
You can add baking soda - it is a very common carbonate - and this will raise your kH. It will also raise the pH, though..... If your pH is always the same reading, every day, and your kH is at least 50ppm (I like 100ppm myself) then I would not fool too much with what you are doing.
Anytime you start a treatment in a tank, it is wise to continue the treatment to the end, unless the fish dies or has obvious bad reactions to the treatment. Parasites and bacteria, etc. will always have, within a population, organisms that are more resistant to treatment than other organisms. Your first rounds of treatment can eliminate the majority of weakest members of the population, and your fish may appear to get better. But if the treatment is not completed you will be potentially leaving alive members of the bacteria or parasites or whatever that were more resistant to the treatment. You stop treatment, and within a matter of days/weeks, the problem is back. Except that this time, the nasties are resistant to the treatment you used and it will not work. It is always better to complete a full regiment even if the fish appears to get better.
IF you have stopped treatment, though, it is probably not worth it to go back and retreat if you are not seeing any symptoms on the fish.
When ever you add a new member to an established tank, it is ALWAYs wise to quarantine the new fish. It may have problems that are dormant in the tank it came from, but, stressed and introduced to a new tank, the problems may pop out. You want to see those and treat them before they infect your established tank. KEep in mind, though, that you may ALSO have problems in your established tank that your current fish is immune to, but your new fish, stressed and all, will fall prey to! It is a worrisome thing - adding new fish. It requires that you keep a VERY close eye on the fish every day for a few weeks following introduction - AFTER a quarantine period!
I would suggest starting up the filter you will be using on the quarantine tank on the established tank NOW and getting it cycled nicely - in preparation for quarantine. Mix media, set them both going on the established tank. Another plus with that method is that you will be introducing the new fish to anything that may be in the established tank while it is in quarantine - and easier to treat!
I have not noticed that the blues or blacks are any less hardy than the reds/whites, except that they seem to be a bit more "rare". Any time there is a smaller population of a certain type of individual, they may tend to be selected more for color than hardiness - and may be a bit more inbred. It is so individualized that.... you just cannot tell. Find a fish that you really enjoy - one that makes you smile everytime you look at it. Study it carefully - and only take it if it appears healthy. Then quarantine it well, keep your eyes open, keep your water clean, and ENJOY!!!!
Orandas, Lionheads, Ranchu - they are all lovely fish.
You can add baking soda - it is a very common carbonate - and this will raise your kH. It will also raise the pH, though..... If your pH is always the same reading, every day, and your kH is at least 50ppm (I like 100ppm myself) then I would not fool too much with what you are doing.
Anytime you start a treatment in a tank, it is wise to continue the treatment to the end, unless the fish dies or has obvious bad reactions to the treatment. Parasites and bacteria, etc. will always have, within a population, organisms that are more resistant to treatment than other organisms. Your first rounds of treatment can eliminate the majority of weakest members of the population, and your fish may appear to get better. But if the treatment is not completed you will be potentially leaving alive members of the bacteria or parasites or whatever that were more resistant to the treatment. You stop treatment, and within a matter of days/weeks, the problem is back. Except that this time, the nasties are resistant to the treatment you used and it will not work. It is always better to complete a full regiment even if the fish appears to get better.
IF you have stopped treatment, though, it is probably not worth it to go back and retreat if you are not seeing any symptoms on the fish.
When ever you add a new member to an established tank, it is ALWAYs wise to quarantine the new fish. It may have problems that are dormant in the tank it came from, but, stressed and introduced to a new tank, the problems may pop out. You want to see those and treat them before they infect your established tank. KEep in mind, though, that you may ALSO have problems in your established tank that your current fish is immune to, but your new fish, stressed and all, will fall prey to! It is a worrisome thing - adding new fish. It requires that you keep a VERY close eye on the fish every day for a few weeks following introduction - AFTER a quarantine period!
I would suggest starting up the filter you will be using on the quarantine tank on the established tank NOW and getting it cycled nicely - in preparation for quarantine. Mix media, set them both going on the established tank. Another plus with that method is that you will be introducing the new fish to anything that may be in the established tank while it is in quarantine - and easier to treat!
I have not noticed that the blues or blacks are any less hardy than the reds/whites, except that they seem to be a bit more "rare". Any time there is a smaller population of a certain type of individual, they may tend to be selected more for color than hardiness - and may be a bit more inbred. It is so individualized that.... you just cannot tell. Find a fish that you really enjoy - one that makes you smile everytime you look at it. Study it carefully - and only take it if it appears healthy. Then quarantine it well, keep your eyes open, keep your water clean, and ENJOY!!!!
Orandas, Lionheads, Ranchu - they are all lovely fish.
i HAVE BOUGHT A CALICO LIONHEAD. THEY HAVE SO MUCH CHARACTER I COULDN'T HELP GETTING ANOTHER. i'M QUARANTINING FOR A FEY DAYS B4 ADDING TO MY MAIN TANK. HE/SHE SEEMS TO BE SETTLING. THANKS FOR YOUR ADVICE DARYL
Whereabouts are black moors in the hardiness stakes?
I think theyre pretty tough
Yeah it's funny. In one of my tanks I've got a blackmoor, a fantail (although I pretend to myself it's a ryukin), and an oranda. Yet my while the moor and the fantail always seem happy and perky, the oranda frequently hangs around near the bottom looking sorry for itself. I guess it's not very hardy.
QUOTE(yazooo @ Mar 17 2007, 12:16 PM) [snapback]646583[/snapback]
Whereabouts are black moors in the hardiness stakes?
black moors are very hardy just like fantails
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