As I posted in a previous topic, I am planning to get a goldfish once I cycle my tank and everything. Originally I wanted to get an oranda, but after reading several cases of people having to cut the wen on their fish (something I would never be able to do myself for fear of hurting the fish) I decided to go for a ryukin. However, after looking around here at pictures of people's orandas and how adorable they are, I figured I might as well look into them. How common is it that orandas' wens grow so large that you have to cut them? Is my fear of having to do this a good reason for getting a different breed, or is it not something I should worry about?

Thanks!

I personally think that you should never trim a wen, even if the fish can't see they have excellent smell and can find food very easily and in a tank it isn't as if they need eyes to avoid predators. Trimming wens IMO is needless. My hamlet can barely see because of his wen and he finds food very quickly and easily, I would never trim his wen. A ryukin is a great fish too but don't let wens keep you away from orandas.

As I understand it, it's not TOO terribly common, though I suppose it's always possible. Heavy wen growth is linked to genetics and from what I've seen is more common in show quality fish (though it's not out of all realms of possibilities that you could find such a fish at your average LFS). Typical wen growth is visible at a fairly young age so if you see a 1.5 inch fish that already shows signs of a big healthy wen relative to it's size, it's more likely that it might end up having problems later in life (MUCH later) than one that shows a little wen.

Now after all that blah-blahing, in my honest opinion I REALLY wouldnt be worried about it. You are obviously attracted to orandas and you shouldn't let somthing like this which may or may not happen stand in the way of that. If a problem crops up, you'll deal with it... in fact the usual advice, like Maceo said, is that even if it is covering the eyes, trimming is only nessisary if it's inhibiting their ability to eat (and wens THAT large really are rare)... fish that cant see can still usually lead a generally full and happy life. If you really ARE worried about it... you could always get a redcap... redcap orandas tend to have top growth rather than full face, which in the case that it does get HUGE wouldnt impede vision.

JMHO

I think if you look around and find a good sized oranda the wen will give you a good indication if it will be one that "overgrows".

A oranda that is at least 2-3 inches should be good to tell. If the wen looks like it is "puffy" and jutting out a bit from the head then it may be one that overgrows. If you pick a fish with a tight wen that is not growing out of control by then the chance of it over growing is lower.

I would go for an oranda, I just love them. Not all orandas will get a huge wen. Ive only had one and I bought him that way.

Thanks so much for the info, you have no idea how excited I am to hear that getting an oranda won't be a problem.

Most people who buy orandas want BIGGER wens, not smaller ones : )


My oranda's wen looks the same size, two months later. I'm feeding him good protien field food and crossing my fingers his wen growing genes will kick in.

you really don't have to worry so much about overgrown wen. this is because you really don't get something that overgrow its wen so easily. as you can see in this forum(since you said you have been reading around) you would notice that such cases don't appear often at all! so I really think since you wanted to get one so much you should go ahead with getting one and problems such as this are always very easily solved, if you can't do it yourself you can always get others to, that is given if this will even come out as a problem.
I have 6 orandas by the way and all of their wen growth are until now still normal, so you really don't have to worry about it so much.

It does not happen that often. I have 3 Orandas, a blue, a red cap, and an orange butterfly tail.

My blue is HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but wen is small. I want it bigger and chubby i love the chubby cheek look!
Sunset my butterfly tail oranda has a funny wen its all on top like a mowhawk LOL but I got her in overcrowded bad conditions so she is not growing to full potential
as for my red cap well....Lucy has a prob and it is concerning me, her wen has increased in 4 months to the point the new growth is kinda clear and see-thru and its going over her eyes, it also makes her top heavy so her buoyancy is not great. I fear I may have to trim it, but so far she finds food ok and as she with 3 other fish only and one of them is blind, I figure they not huge competition, they all get alot of food

So one out of 3 aint bad

Despite the problems I am having with fishys wen I wouldn't steer away from them. It is rare that a trim is needed (very rare from what I could find) Fishy is older (I would guesstemate 3 or more years) and her siblings all have perfect wens with no problems. I would say out of 10 or so orandas this is the first time I have even seen any problems and the only reason the trim was nescessary was the fact that fishy wasn't getting enough food due to the weight of her wen. Good luck on finding the greatest little water friend

IMO, wens should only be trimmed if they are severely disabling a fish, i.e.: fish is head-down on the bottom of the tank all the time and can't swim because the wen is too heavy, the fish can't eat because the wen prevents it from doing so, etc.

If it really worries you, try to choose one that has a very small, compact wen, as others have already suggested in this thread. Disabilitatingly overgrown wens truly aren't all that common, but there are a few things you can do to try to avoid them.

Really, you'd probably have more to worry about getting a ryukin, since, due to their "deep" body type, they are often more prone to SBD than other goldfish breeds. (They're still my favorite, though. )

Ryukins are my fav too! lol, every problem has it solution and prevention, same goes to the higher chances of SBD problem of ryukins.( and of course wen problems!)

When I first got into goldie keeping I always thought the 'fish with the brains were weird looking' who knew they'd end up being my very favorite type of goldfish. I have two oranda's at the moment and am now trying to convince my boyfriend that I need another tank specifically to house oranda's

Go for it!

Thanks so much for all the reassurance and encouragement! I can't wait for my tank to cycle so I can go pick out my fish!

On a somewhat unrelated note, it turns out that the tank I'm getting is a 30 gallon rather than the 20 gallon I thought it was. Is 30 gallons enough room for two goldfish, or should I keep it to one?

30 gals is enough for 2 fancy gf. If you go by the 10 gal rule you could actually put 3 in. But myself I like to give extra gallons per fish to ensure they grow big and healthy.
It would be nice to have 2 so they have a friend with them.

I couldn't agree more! That is the same way that I felt. I love oranda's now! My sister and my mom don't care for them, but I think they are gorgeous!

Exactly! Fancy varieties are certainly more problem-prone than less modified breeds: orandas can get overgrown wens, they're all touchy about SBD (ryukins especially), moors often go blind, etc. Luckily, most of these issues are preventable or treatable, or, given the right conditions, do not pose a significant obstacle to the fish leading happy, long lives.

The funny thing is that when I got my ryukin, I thought it was an oranda! I had really been wanting a ryukin, but had been hearing a bunch of stuff about how they're more aggressive, and since I knew I was going to be putting the new fish with a moor who was losing her eyesight, I figured I should steer clear of them. --I know better now, of course. In fact, when my ryukin was still little he used to follow that moor all around the tank like a little puppy; so cute! X3

Anyway, the tank at the pet store was marked as only having "Black/Red Orandas," and while not all of the tiny fishies were showing wens, some obviously were, there was nothing to indicate that any of them weren't orandas. The only reason I chose the one I did was that he was a really pretty bronze color (I didn't know at the time that that is more of a fry-only color) and had a more compact body (my favorite fancy characteristic. :3) It wasn't until a few months later, when he began developing a hump, that I found out what he really was!


When I was little I called orandas "brain fish." XD Now I've got a photo of my blue/chocolate as the wallpaper for my computer at work.

LaurieP - Thanks for the quick response! I like the idea of just having two in there so they have plenty of room and still have a buddy.

Kimma - Lol, no one in my family likes how orandas look, but I think they're pretty cute.

SnBMeg - Thanks for the info, your ryukin sounds adorable.

I know what people mean when they are saying other people they know do not like the way Orandas look, but they have always been one of my favorites. They make up the majority of my fish.

I would not be concerned with trimming an Orandas wen, as I think this is rare and most just leave them alone. I have some nice orandas with nice wens but none I would even think of trimming. If you love the way they look do not stay away from them because of the wens. They are just too cute not to have.

Thanks VMLola, you always have great advice.

This is the deal with Orandas and their Wen. If you trim their wen then you are opening their body up to disease like cottony wool or other really nasty bacterial diseases (well somne literature says bacterial; and some says fungus- go figure- the answer is on a millitary site- they seem to do the most studying on fish)- or worse yet a stress syndrome or stress related disease like Ick.
I have debated this with my Punch.
IOf you have not seen Punch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUhgGhi7Wfw
a new video is comming up with a lot more suprises.
Anyway; My Punch actually used to use his Wen to cover his eyes- no kidding- as he has grown - yes the wen quickly covered his eyes- yet you can still look and see that he has site through the wen skin. IN fact there are days when he cracks the wen opern as little.
We have decided not to "cut" the wen away from his eyes- However- a warning- and understand that I guess I am a little spoiled with the opportunity that my fish will lay in the palm of my hand literally while I do this- make sure that you take a clean q-tip - once and a while- and run it between the folds of the skin around the eye- and in fact thru the crevasses of the wrinkles in the wen. This is a fact with Orandas- any type of bacterial or fungal disease will park itself un-noticed- in between the folds over time and fester and grow- especially around the eyes- cottony wool disease is especially prone to doing this. the cravases get quite deep. Take it from me ; there is no pain - in fact Punch will give a high speed vibration (we now know that means he likes what is being done) I assume it gets itchy in there sometimes- cleaning thopse areas - Now I believe this is the reason - sometimes that they play in the bubbles - some is play some is an itching problem in the wen- especially around the cracks of the eye will save you the pain later in feeling failure- I have at times carefully taken the q-tip and gently worked it to open the wen just a little and this has actually seemed to help in that he now cracks his wen more to peer out from behind- but be careful - use a q tip that is high quality in that you do not want cottony residue to get caught some where- q - tip brand are usually very tight and do not fall apart when wet. also- just a note- once in a great whiule I treat the qtip with a little Furanase (great product for bacterial diseases) or Furan 2 - not to much and diluted when I clean his wen out- just do not do it close to the eyes because it may irritate them.
Do not get the wrong idea. I run a very very clean tank- I am not beset with diseases. I have a eheim vacuum and do a little bit every day besides the major cleanings every 60 days or so- I was unfortunate enough to pay- (long strory posted here some time ago ) someone to watch my fish and he was seriously hurt - and it wwas my first experience with treating an Oranda- and was lucky enough- so far- to have licked the problem- he is now in a 55 gallon tank- live plants - 2- xp4 Rena (never Rena again)mechanical filiers with a Eheim 2229 wet dry pro filter, a UVfilter for a 500 gallon tank, an in line out of tank heating system and a titanium Chiller, and Temperature alarms- with a 3 gallon a day trickle change water system . I wont go on - but you can see I trake Punch very seriously-
So anyway- happy Q- tiping and think three times before cutting his wen away - enjoy the most wonderful pet you could have- he will find his way around the tank quite well- an lcd night lite works great i find because it actually- I believe increases Punches forraging at noght and helps him see thru the wen........


Eric

Oh and someone said something about top heavy ness- this is covered in many books and literature- it is a paret of owning the breed and is of no concern- and actually part of the descriptive of these types of orandas is the way they rest and have their head down- no worries on that front

Eric

Wow Eric, thanks so much for the info! I'm going to copy and paste the q-tip info into a word doc so that I'll have it when I need it.

BTW, that youtube movie is amazing and Punch is absolutely adorable. He reminds me of an excited puppy...

there's some great post on this thread. I love oranda's as well but I have a tank full of shubunkins. Oranda's are just as cute as they come. I'm thinking of adding a second tank just to have some again.

That was me!! When he rests its dorsal fin touching water surface and head down and when swimming he tips from side to side like his head is just way to heavy


Thanks for the great tips in your post I sure do NOT want to wen trim untill I really have to.

by the way Punch is the cutest fish ever , just like a puppy dog

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That was me!! When he rests its dorsal fin touching water surface and head down and when swimming he tips from side to side like his head is just way to heavy


Thanks for the great tips in your post I sure do NOT want to wen trim untill I really have to.

by the way Punch is the cutest fish ever , just like a puppy dog
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wow, I don't think I've ever seen a cap that large before. He must be doing ok though, right? I mean swimming and eating. Keep us posted on his condition.

I think I'm having the same problem too with top heaviness. My black oranda has such a large "afro," but he does quite well even if he has to wobble around.

I would think it best to leave the wen alone UNLESS the fish cannot function properly. Fish can "see" even if the wen completely covers the eyes. AND, if wen trimming was necessary, I would have it done by someone who REALLY knew what they where doing. Cutting on an animal is dangerous & shouldn't be attempted by just anyone!

Another thing I feel I just have to say.....Yes Punch IS an EXTRAORDINARY fish. And I find it fascinating that he seems to crave such attention. But I worry that it will encourage others to touch their fish unnecessarily. I think fish should RARELY be actually touched. Only when absolutely necessary and even then as little as possible.

Is touching fish all that bad? Two of my bettas let me run my fingers along their sides when they're getting food, should I avoid doing this?

I had a Choco Oranda that recently passed.Her wen was so heavy that the poor girl could not literally get herself off the floor of the tank.I infact didn't realize this until she passed away from an electrical outage problem that caused her to Dropsy, and I had to remove her from the tank,so there are indeed times when the huge wen does play a factor.as she could barely lift her head much at all.
I IMO,don't think that it's a good idea to continually rub/touch any fish as you are taking off it's slime coat when you handle them like that,and you could also scratch them with a fingernail or something and therefore open them to bacteria. I really think that fish were not made to be fondled and if you want an animal to pet,get a dog.As I said though,this is JMO.

I'm so sorry about your poor oranda, that sounds horrible.

I hadn't even thought about the slime coat, thanks for the info!

When I have my hands in the tank my nosey fish often want to investigate what I am doing.....GOLDIES ARE VERY CURIOUS CRITTERS! I never touch them unless absolutely necessary. If they are somewhere they need rescuing from I would 1st try a net or something.

As I said, I am amazed by Punch ((I think he is a Cocker Spaniel reincarnated!)) But I worry that those videos will encourage others to touch & even handle their fish. Just because an animal WILL do something does not mean WE should allow it.

Ha!! Ditto. In fact, I used to HATE goldfish when I was young. I thought they were boring. HAHAHAHAH Who EVER would have thought they would be my favorite fish someday!!

i own a few large oranda's that i purchased from GU and i never had to trim the wen. i read that ryukins tends to have floating bladder sympton, cuz of their body shape. i never had that issues with my ryukins.

It's so obvious that Punch loves to be tickled on his chin and belly, as he crawls right back into your hand for more when you stop. I think that is so cute, but of course realize that as a general rule, most fish don't like to be touched and it could be bad for them. Regardless, that video is the bomb!! You should send it to your local TV station. Give goldies some air time!!