Okay so i did my water testing and found my ammonia to be way to high so i decided to do a 75% water change. then when i look at my newly bought bottle of what i thought was aquasafe turns out not to be. i hadn't used this bottle yet. then i look at my other bottle that really is aquasafe and notice how low it was which is why i bought the new bottle... so then i freak out because im using a bucket to put new water in my tank and i don't know how many gallons that holds...so i put some aquasafe in that i think will be sufficient and then i put it in the tank then i get really worried that what if i didn't put enough aquasafe in! all the petstores are closed so i decide to put my two fish in my bowl it's medium size. when i take out my oranda with my net he starts FLIPPING OUT and shaking and just being psyched out cause he's out of the water then i put him in the bowl and then i notice a strip of his tail is trailing behind him!!! i look closer at his tail and now it is all frayed and he has a white spot above his left eye. NONE Of these things were on him earlier!! then i take my fantail out and she did the same flippy thing not as exaggerated as my oranda and her tail is fine except i can see red veins in her tail however i have been able to see those for quite awhile... i don't know what to do about my oranda!! now he's just pooping and pooping and he looks sooo scared. but i don't have enough water conditioner to put in the tank!! i don't know what to do!! what if they die???



Test Results for the Following:
Ammonia Level? 3.0 YIKES I know
Nitrite Level? .5
Nitrate level? 20 ppm
Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)? 7.4
Ph Level out of the Tap? ??
Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? 20 gal. a little over a week
What is the name and size of the filter/s? topfin power filter 40
How often do you change the water and how much? i haven't changed the water yet
How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 fantail = 4 inch oranda=3 inch
What kind of water additives or conditioners? aquasafe
Any medications added to the tank? no
Add any new fish to the tank? no
What do you feed your fish? tetrafin goldfish crisps
Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt",
bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? oranda=his tail looks really bad and now he has this white little spot above his left eye, fantail= i can see red veins in her tail
Any unusual behavior like staying
at the bottom, not eating, ect..? nothing unusual

i forgot to mention that when i put them in the bowl it was new water and i used the last bit of my aquasafe because i had just enough for my bowl

I would attribute it to the extreme parameters you've got going on in your tank water. You're well overstocked for a 20-gallon tank and the easiest thing to do is get them a larger volume of water ASAP. This will help dilute the toxins and will be easier overall when you're doing the water changes.

Goldfish generally need 10-gallons per fish, so any large container that can accomodate all your fish should be suitable.

really i'm overstocked? unfortunately i don't have a container that can hold 20 gallons. what should i do with them? to put new water in the tank will have to wait until tomorrow when i can buy more aquasafe. I feel terrible about all of this... i had no idea about the tank cycle but if i would've known i would have done the fishless one to not put them through this!

Many members have held goldfish in a filtered rubbermaid bin successfully, this may be an alternative you want to consider.

where could i buy a rubbermaid bin? are you saying it's easier to maintain? i don't want to just give up on trying to help the cycle of my tank. i admit i'm new to all of this but do you recommend me putting them in a rubbermaid bin until i can get my tank through the fishless cycle?

Well, you've got a few options.

1) Move all the fish to a larger volume (either into a new aquarium or a rubbermaid bin) with the filter. Finish cyling in this larger volume. Then either find a new aquarium and move the fish + cycled-filter into the new aquarium or keep the fish in the rubbermaid.

2) Rehome one of your three fish so that you're within reasonable stocking levels. Then finish cycling in your current 20-gallon aquarium.

3) Return the fish to the petstore, complete a fishless cycle, then stock the tank so that you have 10-gallons per goldfish.

It's up to you what you ultimately wish to do.

Rubbermaids can be found at hardware or department stores.

i have 2 fish... when the question above asked how many fish i put 2 then put fantail not realizing you'd read it as i had 2 fantail i'm sorry.. i have one fantail and one oranda since there are only 2 fish does this change any of the advice you gave me?

Ah, I see. I thought you meant 2 fantails and 1 oranda.

Personally, I think it would still help you out to have a larger volume, but now this means you're just going to have to do a lot more water changes. If you still want to separate one of your fish, you'll have to do better than a bowl. In the bowl he's polluting it with his own excretions -- maybe even worse than if he was in the tank.

Do the water changes. You may even need to do this more than once a day, but in order to get those parameters in safe levels you'll need to get them done.

Hi CF - if you're going to keep your fish in a bowl for the night then don't feed them during this time. You want to try and reduce the waste produced to keep the ammonia down or there's a good chance that by tomorrow (based on it being such a small vessel) it'll be higher than 3.0ppm especially as 75% of ammonia excretion is via osmosis through the gills. This basically means that even though they'd be pooping less, they'll still be 'peeing' through the gills adding to the volume of ammonia.

20 gallons for 2 fish is good if they're small enough and you'll know when it's time to upgrade - especially as they grow bigger. I have two fish in a 20 gallon which is now way too small for them so i'll need to upgrade them to a 40 gallon soon... so the 10 gallon per fish rule really only applies when they're little.

Just on the fins, they're going to need excellent water for the symptoms to heal but if you see them getting worse after a few days of diligent waterchanges (to keep ammonia and nitrites at a firm 0) then bacteria may have invaded but that's a bridge to cross if you actually come to it.

Hopefully you'll all get through the cycle of your tank and it will be easier on your fish if water is changes whenever you see your ammonia or nitrites get to the 0.50 mark

okay thankyou Jen and Nenn for all your help! since my oranda's tail is all frayed now because he was so scared coming out of the water should i treat him as though he had finrot? and thankyou Jen for the advice of not feeding them I didn't, realizing that it would add more pollution to the bowl! this afternoon they'll be back in the tank and i'll be checking the water parameters constantly and changing my water alot more!

When you say frayed:

- do the fins have a white coating around the edges?
- are they split down most of the fin rays leaving them exposed and shredded? or are they eroding around the edges?
- is there any redness?
- or are they clean splits with no redness?

For now, I would try to make the water as perfect as possible and give his defences a chance to improve especially as one of the primary causes of fin rot is poor water quality.... and if in a 12-24 hours, they're deteriorating further, you may need to medicated for bacterial finrot and Maracyn Two is a good choice

when i say frayed i mean that 2 strips of his tail just stripped right off after her freaked out in the net and the rest of his fins don't have redness or any white...they aren't split or anything just those two strips that came right off. i can't describe what his tail looks like it's only at the tips that it looks worn out?(don't know if that describes it well enough) none of your descriptions match his tail....im sorry i can't be more descriptive 8-[

Just a side note, as I can't really help with the problems compared to the others here; as a fin has already been hurt, you may want to avoid using nets with your goldies.

A bowl or other container than can contain some water may be a safer idea as their fins wont have the possibility of becoming caught. Now that's not to say there wasn't an underlying problem....

I'll leave the rest to the experts... *nod*

That's ok - I know what you mean and my brain must've been asleep because i've read about the net a couple of times now..

No, I wouldn't add any meds yet because it seems to have ripped off during his altercation with the net. In situations like these, perfect water and a bit of salt should help so you could add 1 teaspoon of predissolved salt per gallon (sea, rock or aquarium salt - any kind without additives) and see if it improves

In response to Hlusak's advice I bought a MUCH softer net but I didn't even think to use another bowl with water in it!! duh me! and in response to JenW's advice should I keep him out of the tank to add the salt treatment so it won't affect my fantail or will she not mind it? will that mess up my beginnings of my cycle? and if i am supposed to keep him out all I unfortunately have is a 2.5 gallon and a medium bowl...and these rubbermaid bins you all speak of so highly, i must be having a brain fart because i think you all are talking about the kind people use for garbage... could someone post a picture of a rubbermaid bin with fish in it? or of a suitable rubbermaid bin? thankyou all for your help this really is an amazing website for a newby!!

hi cutefishy51,
in response to what rubbermaid bins are, here is a link to their website http://www.rubbermaid.com/rubbermaid/produ...cat=HPCat100195
im not from the USA, but i think you can pick them up in hardware stores as well. hope this helps.

Thankyou claire_uk for that link! I now have finally grasped the concept of the rubbermaid bin. That's amazing how fish can live in those with a filter system! As for my tank this will be the second time tearing it down completely in 2 two weeks. Now should I buy the rubbermaid bin and give him the salt treatment for a little bit as JenW suggested? I want my tank to cycle without my fish in it but if I buy the rubbermaid bin will that cycle as well? I wish I knew what I do now back before I bought the fish...

Cycling is all about the filter and not so much the container.

If you choose to go the rubbermaid route, you can finish cycling with whatever filter you're currently using (or alongside a new filter). Once your filter is cycled, you can move the fish + filter to a new aquarium, and voila, you've got yourself a cycled aquarium. You may still experience a bump in your cycle during a move, but generally it's very small if you have well-established filter media.

Getting a rubbermaid for your fish doesn't magically allow you to avoid the stress of the cycling process, but it does give you a cheap way to have a larger volume to dilute the waste in so that it doesn't affect your fish as harshly.

ooh so its all about the filter! thanks Nenn I wouldn't have known that. so either rubbermaid or tank will work but rubbermaid will b easier on the fish so the waste is easier diluted. Thankyou all for your wonderful advice and for taking your time to help me get a new start!

okay so they went back into their 20 gallon tank on the count of my parents refuse to spend more money on my fish... anyway I haven't fed them for 3 days and when my fantail got in the tank she was breathing for air at the top then swim around and now she's pooping a long white stringy poop...is it parasites? arg. goldfish are such a touch animal to take care of. but i'm willing to do the work for my fishies to lead a happy healthy life!

Here's a pic of how I set up a rubbermaid for my fry when they were outdoors:



I think it's a fabulous idea to have one on standby for times of medicating or whenever you need to isolate a fish - they definitely come in handy.

Now for the salt - you can add it predissolved directly to the tank with both fish as it's a kind of tonic and doesn't hurt fish or filter. And no, it won't mess with the good bacteria that's colonising your filter's media

so your saying the salt will help my fantail with her parasites?? does she have them? and yes I agree completely about having a bin on the side but i've spent $200 on these fish already in such a short amount of time and my parents aren't too happy about it!

Not necessarily parasites no - it could be stress or an infection. Your fish can both live easily in the 20 gallon for now, you don't need more space for them until they're bigger.

Do you have an airstone for the tank? Where is the ammonia sitting at now?

I would add the salt as per my post before this one and make sure the water remains perfect because bacteria lives in all takis and any surface trauma can fall victim to opportunistic bacteria - especially when fish are stressed.

Darn, you keep getting in before me

The way to know if it's parasites is to look for symptoms and some include:

- scratching
- thickened slime coat
- yawning
- scratching/erratic swimming
- red spots on the body
- pale gills

I think it may be more to do with stress... or at worst a bacterial infection. So salt, excellent water and monitor for the next 12 hours and then we can take it from there If you see any of the above symptoms though, you can raise the salt level slowly (which i'll explain later) to 0.3% and this can take care of several types of parasites.

Hang in there, it really does get easier once you've got your tank established and settle into the routine - the first bit is usually the roughest.

You mentioned you hadn't fed them in a few days, and I sometimes also see what looks like very thin, stringy poop when they haven't eaten recently. It could just be the mucous layer that's in their intestine that normally holds the poop together shedding a little bit, depending on what you're seeing in their behavior.

Good luck.

That's so true I would try feeding them today because you now have water conditioner to deal with any waterchanges that are needed and it'll help build their strength. Then check to see what colour their poop is. Hopefully this'll be all it is

okay i'm using the testing strips and i know it's not recommended but i don't have the 20 bucks to spend on the master test kit :-( according to the strips my ammonia is at .25 ugh.everything else is low nitrIte=0 nitrAte=20 which according to my strip is still safe. and the thing i don't have a siphon so i have to use the cup and bucket method to change my water... i feed them twice a day is that affecting my water? although i've only fed them once and that was this morning... and she doesn't have parasites cuz she doesn't scratch or anything. oh and when you say salt you don't mean the kind of salt humans use do you? i haven't salted the tank since im not quite sure if there is a specific salt or if it's the ones that humans eat... thanks for everyones help and tips~ one other thing is that on my test strips it shows that my water is really hard. it must be because of the sink water could that be a symptom to all this as well? and if so how can i fix that?

forgot to mention that yes i do have a bubble wand in my tank adding oxygen...

Be sure to test a sample of your tap water too, let a clean cup of tap water sit on the counter for an hour before testing (people have reported a massive change in pH if they test directly from the tap).

This will let you know if there is anything in the tap water (ammonia/nitrite/nitrate) that may affect the readings in your tank. Btw, what pH are you reading?

As far as feeding, you may want to start limiting to small feedings once a day to lessen the ammonia output of your fish. Then, as soon as you're finished cycling, you can return to a more robust diet.

Salt: DO NOT USE TABLE SALT. This type of salt contains caking agents that will harm your fishies. I can't remember what other salts you can use, but you'll be safe if you use "aquarium salt" for salting.

oh my feeding once a day will be hard since they swim by me everytime and act like they are starving as i walk by the tank but i will resist!! and i can just leave the water in a bowl or a cup to test from my tap?

You sure can

Think of feeding as the number one culprit to polluting their home - the less you feed, the cleaner the air they breathe (so to speak). They won't starve and one decent feed (as much as they can consume in 5 minutes) daily is a good balance.

The level of gH and kH (hardness) comes from your water source - but when you say hard, do you have a reading for your kH?

Also, what's the current ph of your tank?

I would prefer water on the harder side because soft water has no buffers to hold ph stable so it'll start to drop, especially as hydrogen ions (produced by the bacteria living within the filter) accumulate - and the thing we all dearly want to achieve is a stable ph.

How much gravel do you have in the tank? I'm a bit worried about the waste that's possibly accumulating under your gravel because as it's not oxygenated very well, old food and waste tends to rot which produces a gas called hydrogen sulfite - which if released into the tank (by moving some of the gravel) can kill a fish quickly.

If you ever want to give your gravel a good old clean - I'd remove the fish to another vessel during the process, give the tank time to resettle and any HS time to gas off This is a good way to ensure the gravel doesn't become a health hazard

i don't have any gravel in my tank just 3 fake plants and a bridge thing. my pH of the tank is between 7.2 and 7.4 i can't tell between the color they look so similar

How are things going?

Hey LaurieP they are doing just fine now! I feed them once in the morning and my oranda feeds out of my hand which is just amazing and my fantail scopes around for food. My orandas tail is already starting to grow back since he got it cut off due to the net! but I have a softer net now! I just did a 50% water change today it's been 1 week I believe. Their ammonia JUST went up today so I changed it. They seem to be livin' the sweet life now. I also got a for my 2.5 gallon tank don't worry! it's a betta fish! Now that I know the "rules" of the fish I won't ever put a beautiful fishy in a small tank again!! Thanks again to everyone who helped me!!

I am glad to hear things are better.