* Test Results for the Following:
Ammonia Level? Normal
Nitrite Level? Normal
Nitrate level? Normal
Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)? Normal
Ph Level out of the Tap? Normal
* Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? 30gal about a year.
* What is the name and size of the filter/s? Unsure. Looks fairly large for a filter setup.
* How often do you change the water and how much? About half tank, maybe less, once algae starts forming and the pleco can't keep up.

# How many fish in the tank and their size?2 pleco 3" each, 1 goldfish (was 2 BIG goldfish 3" each but now is 1), 2 fancy fattie goldfish about 1.5" for the big one and 1" for the little one and 2 feeders 1" or less.
# What kind of water additives or conditioners? none
# Any medications added to the tank? none
# Add any new fish to the tank? none
# What do you feed your fish? topfin
# Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt",
bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? None/nothing!
# Any unusual behavior like staying
at the bottom, not eating, etc..? He eats, but has lost his balance. Is not blind and knows which is up and down, but is swimming in circles. Dives to the bottom and back to the top.
I've had a few other fish do this...We've isolated him since this video.

Search function told me I was not logged in, so it did me no good. I briefly scanned over the first couple pages, but saw nothing like this.

CAN HE BE SAVED?? Please give me good news!!

Sorry I forgot the video.

Can he be saved? Well certainly, but that depends of your co-operation, namely giving EXACT numbers of the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate (not just "normal"). U said u change the water about half a tank, but can you tell us how OFTEN do you change it e.g. once a week or once a fortnight or monthly?

There are a few things I can tell you:

1. You're overstocked. Every fancy (double-tailed) needs at least 10 gals and every single-tailed needs 20 gals.
2. The sick goldfish seems to have suffered SBD or swim bladder disease, but seems like there's something else bothering him, especially it seems that his body is curved to one side.

Again, all depends on your co-operation. Like a doctor, we need some specific vital informations provided by you (especially when we're corresponding thru the internet) to really pinpoint the cause of the problem.

Look forward to hearing from you again and

I agree with d_golem here as we definitely need to see some Param numbers.I would do an immediate 50% water change in the meantime just to see if that helps at all as this goldfish does look to be on his way out. With no other obvious symptoms,and the info you gave on water changes,I can't help but think that poor water quality is playing a major role in this poor fish's problems. He may be more vulnerable to it than the others,and you said that you allready lost the other big one,so I would act quickly on the water change.

The water gets changed 2 weeks to a month. I had no clue they were overcrowded per petsmart's recommendations.

He's in a new tank with all fresh water, filter, start-rite and he does see the food and manages to go for it.

Petsmart didn't give me numbers. Just the colored tabs on the strip of paper.

I'll go to a pet store to get the number-providing water testing kit.

I really want to save him, but only can provide what I know!

I hate to say this Josh,but most people that work in Pet Stores,don't really have a clue---they just need a job.
If you're going to buy a test kit,try and get a Drop Test kit,as they're the most accurate. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals has a nice reasonably priced Master Kit:)
Glad to hear the fish is in a tank by himself.It's much easier to treat with meds if needed. You'll have to test that water constantly also as that's not cycled yet,and you have the other tank to get back in shape so you may be doing alot of water changes and testing.

It's good to hear that he's now trying to go after food----that's a good sign.If his problem was poor water quality,,sometimes you notice immediate changes for the good,and sometimes not ,if he's been dealing with it for a while.We will hope for the best of coursde.Let us know when you get the test kit.
Hopefully,we'll get the big guy through this.

Hi Josh - looking at your fish, he seems to be exhibiting conflicting symptoms because on the one hand, he's starting to bend over yet on the other, he's still very active. It looks almost as though he's got some kind of toxicity poisoning.

Is there any reason you aren't you using a water conditioner? If you have chlorine and chloramines in the water, this can slowly poison fish but not only that, when water with chlorine goes through your filter, it destroys any beneficial bacteria that's growing there.

So there's a couple of things you could try and that's to go with Sharon's suggestion and up the waterchanges but before you do, it'd be a great idea if you could get your hands on some water conditioner

Doh! Sharon beat me to it!

Hi Josh, and !

Unfortunately, advice from pet store employees is not adequate, and is more tailored to tropical fish, which of course never get as big as a goldfish, and therefore never create as much waste and ammonia than a goldfish will.
When cycling a tank, its always best to have your own test kit. That way you always know when you have to perform a water change. I can tell you now that 2 weeks isn't enough. Even in a cycled tank weekly water changes are recommend, and with your beneficial bacteria not established yet, water changes need to be done whenever the ammonia rises above .25, which might be on a daily basis, depending on your fish load and how much you feed the fish. During that time your own test kit really comes in handy, since you don't wonna run to the pet store every single day.
I assume that there ammonia in the tank, and your fish gets stressed because of it. Like Devs said, change at least 50% of the water right away, make sure that it has the same temperature and pretty much the same pH (anything with a difference of up to 0.2) is okay).

I see that you don't use a water conditioner - that alone is deadly for a fish. You see, tap water contains chemicals that are making the water safe for us. The most common chemicals are chlorine and chloramines. Not all water systems have chloramines (which is chlorine and ammonia combined), but most of them carry chlorine. The water conditioner is needed to remove the chlorine from the water before it enters the fish tank - chlorine is deadly for fish in any form and shape.
So, with you not using a water conditioner, you are bringing deadly poison inside the fish tank. It is probably a blessing that you didn't perform more water changes, and exposed the fish to more chlorine in the process. Water standing in a bucket over night will make the chlorine disapate, although that won't work for chloramines. When the chlorine is gone, there will still be ammonia left, and the water conditioner will take care of that as well.

So, if you wonna give your fish a fighting change, at least get some water conditioner and do more regular water changes. Have the water tested daily and go from there...

Ooops, looks like Sharon beat us both to it, Jen...

Yeah but I actually forgot to mention the conditioner .I was so busy tring to think of evrything that I thought I mentioned it.

This is all stuff I had no clue of. Had another fish a few years ago get this big (with 3 other fish in a 7 gallon) and they managed to live through each tank cleaning....same procedure.
I recently pulled a celestial that has an eye shewed off by those idiot plecos'. Getting fed up with those pleco killing others......

I'll do all this right away. I've got a list ready for the pet store tomorrow and I'll ignore those 'helpful peoples' there!

Thanks again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's a good idea Josh and if you have any questions, just post here. The advice you receive from kokos will be much different to the advice you'll receive in an outlet - and that's basically because the members who offer advice do so from their own experiences and a great caring for fish

Just on your fish who survived in a 7 gallon, there's some fish out there that'll always survive poor conditions but they don't grow to their full potential - and what's sad about it is it's no life for them. Fish have a really cool habit of repaying excellent care - and that's by remaining healthy while growing more beautiful as they get older

Ok, so the ammonia showed a measly .25 or less in the BIG tank that the problem fish was in...the new tank (apparently too new) has 2.0 and the other smaller tank has .25 on the dot.

I have used the start-rite liquid (cap full per 10 gallons), but bought some tablets and water conditioner.....I thought start-rite was a water conditioner already, but it's something to get you off to a RIGHT START. hahaha!!

So how do I get the ammonia where it needs to be? Just change the water? Isn't the ammonia caused by the dirty goldfish himself?

Ammonia is basically made up of waste released either via the butt or the gills... If you have a fully cycled filter though, it houses 2 types of bacteria that converts ammonia to nitrites and nitrites to nitrates and these are nitrosomonas - which converts ammonia and nitrobacter which converts nitrites.

Until these bacteria are established, ammonia and nitrites will rise to dangerous levels and the only way to keep these in check is via waterchanges. So on the tank with 2.0ppm, you'll need to do several waterchanges and then keep them up until you see a solid 0 for both ammonia and nitrites (while nitrates will show a level).

Hopefully adding a good water conditioner will help your fish, as will waterchanges

He's developed black dots on his left side, the side he's turning towards!
So I added water conditioner tablet suitable for the size tank he's in.

I'll get right on changing the water.

I really want to separate the pleco (jerk-wad fish) to their own tank alone, but is that a good idea?

How are things going?

Changing water and testing ammonia levels.
Can he be saved??? He now has this black dot thing going on the side he's curved to. I would really like to put him out of his misery, but I can't come to grips with that.

He hasn't changed at all.

One thing I took note of is that he got like this in the big tank (video) with other fish and all the other fish are fine. I think over crowding isn't the cause of this...but he IS the biggest fish in that tank, but I had another fish do this who was not the biggest in the tank at that time. This one has always been the biggest aside of the pleco when I first got the tank.

In regards to the black spots, Josh, those are the results of ammonia burns, and will go away eventually after a while, especially when the filter gets established. The actual burns are healing now, and the black spot is only the result of that - nothing to worry about, that isn't an illness.

I'd think that because he is the biggest fish, he might be affected by ammonia the most, or is more sensitive to water issues than the others are. Fish are like people in that regard - some get stressed over things that doesn't affect others at all.

I'd keep up what you are doing, have an eye on the ammonia/nitrites, and possibly add some salt to the tank to ease stress.

I agree with Andrea, right now concentrating on the water is best.

So I should be changing the water every week or every day or every other day?

So the black spots that look like a vehicle's interior mold is aftermath of high levels of ammonia??? Geez, wonder how they all survived...

He's really getting pissed at this spinning thing that he shoots around, sometimes hitting the cover and as a result of the spinning, he's losing a lot of scales on the sides that hit the rocks. Is there a multiple answer on what this can be? I have one so far.

If only they could talk.

Your fish will flash if the water is changed too suddenly. Keyword is gradual with everything for fish.

Flashing/spinning can mean a pH difference in the water you put in and the old water he is in. It can also be caused if the water is a different temperature. You have to match temp (with your little finger is fine) within one degree so the fish is not stressed out...and you have to match pH too.

Other than that it could mean parasites. What symptoms did your black moor have when it passed?

And water changes...done very gradually and pH and temp matched ...should be done every day or twice a day until you get ammonia and nitrites reading zero. Anything more is dangerous. It may mean a few weeks of constant water changing. After that 50% once aweek may be okay but you have to keep testing.

How are things going?

video really sucks, but this is him today.


He's not good. He's getting more irritated at this spinny thing. Could he be blind?
What all can cause this??? I think changing the water isn't doing anything but making him worse.


This one has some residue on the tank, so what looks like round and white on his gill area isn't on him.

The pictures aren't clear but the black looks like it could be ammonia burns healing.
How are the params in the tank? Did you have an ammonia issue at one point?

Yes, last week it was 2.0 and now it's less than .25 and remains the same.
I feel inclined to change the water again. It's been about 3 days. I'll test first and post back results.

I really feel for him, though.
I took a quick glance at him and he's literally upside down gasping and not spinning.

Can someone post up a list of what COULD be wrong? Not knowing for sure what it is, just what the possibilities are.

Ammonia was at the 0 color, so the water needs no changing.
ANY suggestions on what it CAN be is very appreciated! He can be saved if he's lived this long!

Congrats! As others have said, the black might be a sign of healing, rather than of things getting worse.

Other important water parameters to keep in mind are nitrites (note- these are different than nitrAtes), which are also toxic even in small amounts.

Can you test for nitrItes and pH and post the results? It would also be helpful to know what the pH of your tapwater is, so we can see if it's different in the tank than it is when it goes into the tank.

I don't have that kit, but I know it's almost 100% free of ammonia!
I'll get on that testing kit tomorrow. I gotta quit going to petsmart for anything except fish, but the closest other is Allpet or Petco and they're the same big-time corporation as petsmart is and the nearest 'good' aquatic place is WAY into portland..

I'm really thinking of taking the fish to Cayes (deep into portland) and asking him to get him back to health or at least try...

If you print out the page from Petsmart's web site where they have the "freshwater master test kit" and take it with you to the store, they should sell it to you for the online price. This can be more than half off.

Josh, since your ammonia was so high, this is the burns healing. As the burn heals it becomes black, then changes back to the original color. So everywhere you see black that was a severe ammonia burn.
You need to check the water daily and as the other posted said, testing for nitrites and nitrates are as imporant.

For now I wouldn't take the fish anywhere, just concetrate on water changes and testing. Keeping the water in top condition is the best thing to help your fish heal.

He looks depressed and when he moves, all he does is shoot around the tank in a "mad" fury

His black spots are lighter as of tonight, but more are appearing on his other side. Ammonia is still safe.

I don't have $45 for a test kit (last I checked) and I'm they're the cheapies.
*sigh* I'll just wait longer and change water more for now.

Edited for language. (Josh, please refrain from swearing. We have alot of young members and Koko keeps the site very family friendly.....thanks)

It's $13.49 here or if you print out the page and bring it to the store.

That was $45 I swear! I'll get on that tomorrow.

BTW, he's still alive and I don't know if that's good or bad.

Josh do you still have 7 fish in the 30 gallon? The biggest fish (this one I presume) is going to suffer first but the others may follow. Constant adequate water changes in this tank are going to be very hard for you, especially with 3 commons who need 20 gallons each to stay healthy. I strongly suggest another tank to give this fish a fighting chance Is it possible?

Josh in the meantime you still need to be doing changes, for even though the ammonia is down your nitrites may be up and those are worse than the ammonia.

Hi Josh,where are you now with params and water changes?Hows the fish doing?

I printed out the page and am looking for time to go to the pet store.
Should be ok tomorrow. Too bad there isn't a 24/7 pet store, though what's the point? heh
I'll report back with some numbers!

How is it going?

gawd I finally got that dumb car all fixed up...now I have time.

nitrates - 0
nitrites - .25
high range ph - 8.0
ammonia - 0
ph - 0-0.25 (less than between those numbers)

Was quite surprised to see these numbers. Expected one of them to be way off the charts, so it'd be an easier fix, but no. Sounds like it's going to be more difficult than I imagined.

So since there are the stats of the tank, it's probably a disease that isn't life threatening...? I really hope this can be treated and ove come.

You do water changes whenever your ammonia or nitrate levels get too high. There's no 'right answer' to that....every tank is different. Check the water at least once a day....the more the better. If any levels get high (Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, etc.) get high...do a water change....and keep doing water changes until the numbers come back down.

This isn't something that you have to keep doing as long as you own a goldfish. As someone said, a filter and tank will eventually grow beneficial bacteria to convert all of this ammonia and other poisonous stuff into less harmful stuff. Hope your fish makes it.... but staying on top of his water readings and keeping it pristine is his best chance. Good luck!

Lol...well, ignore my post above. I answered a question from page 1 before I realized there was a page 2

Hmm...why exactly is there no 'edit' button. There was one, but when I tried to edit it said 'you cannot edit this post' and then the button dissapeared.

That's ok, it was good advice anyway

There is an edit button, but it seems to be tempermental...?

My guess is that there's a time limit on editing- you can edit your posts for the first n minutes after posting, and then not after that.

So about the numbers and the poor suffering fatty feeder?
ANYTHING helps. Medical stuff...?

How is he doing, Josh? How are your params today? How many fish do you have in your tank now?

It is frustrating when you don't see any changes, but just keep pluggin away on those waterchanges and keep a close eye on your params (change water when your ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates creep up). You are doing the best thing you can for him by keeping his water nice and clean. That is the most important part of life for a fish!

So water changes is all I can do? I gotta be able to do something else?

As I said, water is THE most important aspect of a fish's life. They live it, breathe it, eat in it, poo in it... Keeping it perfect is the best thing you can do for the little guy. Many people here are against adding unnecessary medications or chemicals and I agree. It's like when you have a cold - you take some medicine and it may alleviate the symptoms a bit, but the cold is still there and you just have to drink your OJ, rest, and wait it out. Same thing here, your fish needs fresh water, good params, and time to recover. The damage may be permanent and it may not recover 100%, but adding extra chemicals is not going to help.

Have you seen any improvement yet? Is he still spinning? Still in a bent shape?

So I'm supposed to sit here and see this without doing anything? Water changes are required for a goldfish/any fish, yes I know this, but that's a no-brainer.
There must be something in addition I can do instead of seeing this go on for more than the month it has already. I can't bring myself to put him out of his misery and I know he'll die at petsmart, so I'm at a loss for words on how far I went just to be told to leave him be. That's exactly what I do not want to do.

Against your beliefs (everyone) can someone tell me something SMALL or simple (please stop with the water changes) to do to boost his health?

Right now I feel there is nothing I can do for him and I went out of my way to get all this testing stuff when all in all it wasn't needed (the 2 other tanks were and are fine) as the test results showed exactly what I figured in the first post.
Please, someone has to know of something else.

Josh I wish I could say here give him this....."fill in the blank" medicine. But unfortunately there is no miracle pill. Water quality is everything and often they become so ill they just can't recover. I know how difficult it is to consider euthanasia but you may have to to end his suffering. It sounds like you love him dearly, and euthanasia is an act of love. Anytime we have to think of euth, it is difficult but to have him continue may be too hard on him.
Think about his quality of life and if you think he is suffering.

What are your params now? Cycling is so hard on them, it really becomes a fight for life sometimes.

Josh- it looks really bad. In the earlier pics/video the fish was spiralling and it seemed like swimbladder or the effect of chronic toxic water situation. For both these the best cure is perfect water. Really. I know it seems like no-one is helping by prescribing a medicine but without obvious visual symptoms like red spots, white spots, finrot ,cloudy eyes etc, it is very hard to prescribe a medicine accurately. Prescribing the wrong meds to a very stressed sick fish can be fatal.

What is going on inside a fish that spirals like this and then collapses on the tank floor with no outward visual symptoms is most often toxic water syndrome and or swimbladder (which you can read about elsewhere but is basically a bloating of the inner organs caused by gulping of air with food, and sometimes over-eating).

I know you feel desperate and want to do what you can for your fish..it is great you are seeking help for your fish but if you do you also have to trust the advice from people here who have kept fish for years .I suggested before and will say again you cannot keep this many fish in a 10 gallon without getting this problem. It is only a matter of time before it happens again with another fish. Your fat feeder is a large fish (looks about 6 inches?)and is dieing from lack of space and being crowded. The only way out of his problem is fresh water or another tank of his own.We have all been there and know how overstocking shortens a fishes life. The testing stuff you bought was not a waste of money, testing has to be done regularly as params change daily.

Laurie- double post sorry.