I have 2 fantail goldfish in a ten gallon (i know too small, we will upgrade soon). We were told at the pet store that the one fish is a baby, and based on the fact that he is changing colour now I would agree (he was red with black all across his head and back and tip of fins, but the black is turing orange on his head and back). The other fish is a calico fantail from wally mart, and is small as well. They are about 1.5 to 2 inches long including tail. Santa brought the second fish home and he was quarantined in a bg bucket with filter for about 5 days before Christmas morning.

Shortly after the second fish was added our first fish showed signs of ich (about 5 very very small white dots, and he seemed lethargic, and was holding his top fin down), so I treated with quick cure for 4 days with a 20-25% water change the second day. The bottle said "treats ich in 2 days", so I doubled it to be safe. I did remove the carbon from the filter, and the water prams were fine during this time. The fish seemed fine.

Several days to a week later I noticed a small white salty grain on the new fish, and knew the ich was coming back, so I decided to treat with salt. I followed the directions on this site to make a .3% salt mix. I mixed 10 teaspoons of salt up, vacumed the aquarium well and added the new salted water. Did the same thing 12 hours later and again 12 hours after, to make the .3%. I partially changed the water (25%) a couple of days later because the tank was showing trace ammonia (between 0ppm and the next colour), and made sure to add the removed amount of salt to the new water. The next day the water still showed a bit of ammonia (same colour, so I partially changed the water again, this time 40%) The water prams are fine now, 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitites and 5 ppm nitrates, the PH is 8.2 which the test says in normal for artifically salted fresh water tanks. I don't have a heater so the tank has been about 72-74 degrees. The ich spots disapeared right away, since there was only 1 or 2 small dots. This was done late on the 3rd and it is now the 10th. Since the last wtaer change the fish just don't seem to be their normal selves. The one fish spends a lot of time inactive on the bottom of the tank and the other one keeps holding his dorsal fin down, which he never did before. I don't really know the one fish since we have only had him since Christmas. He was from a 24 hour store so the lights were always on, maybe he sleeps during the day too?

I would like to start phasing the salt out with partial water changes in case the salt is making them feel bed. They are so small, and I am worried about the salt making them feel bad, making them sick. Can I start doing this now, or should I wait a few days to make sure the ich is gone? The fish seem normal sometimes, swimming around fine, eating fine, but the new littlest guy sleeps a lot, more than before I think.

I should add that the tank has only been running for 14 days, but it was swapped over from a fully cycled tank: rocks, filter, decorations, part of the water and plants that were all in the fully cycled tank were moved to the new one, so I wasn't worried about re-cycling the tank. The water has been fine, just a bit low in nitrates. There are 2 filters, a power filter and a little one that sits in the water and blows small bubbles.

Also the new fish had a small accident with a suction hose while I was partially changing the tank 10 days ago. I turned to look at my hubby and the little gut got sucked up (just his head) He fell right back out when I lifted the house, and looked OK, maybe a litle wear on the skin above his right eye. He seems fine from that now though.

I just need to know if the salt has been in long enough to treat the ich at 72 degrees f or if I should wait longer, and if the salt could be making the fish feel bad, especially since they are so small. They don't seem too terribly sick, but just not their normal active selves. They still eat fine (soaked sinking pellets, (ocassionally) soaked flakes, peas, other veggies we eat), and when they are swimming around, look normal m ost of the time.

Now I have rambled on forever. I am new to this but really love the little guys, and am getting addicted to this hobby. I hope to be able to get them a new bigger home, but for now this one is new already, and we didn't plan on 2 fish, until it was a requested gift from Santa at the last minute.
Thanks for the help,
Marcie

I personally dont advise using salt at that concentration on fish less than 2 inches in body length as the fish cant cope with too much salt at that size.
I would slowly take the salt out and for the next week do 50% gravel vacs to make sure theres no ich in the gravel.
If you do find spots on the fish raise the temperature to 80f and add extra air and add medication.

HMMMM kind of bothers me to hear that because I was only following the advice posted multiple times on this site for using salt as a more gentle approach to curing ich and now I might be hurting the fish. Might make me have to find a better forum where all of the answers are given, it should be in the main posts about treating with salt.

I have spent hours and hours (no small feat for a mom of 3 under 3) on this site learning and trying to help my little fish, maybe it should be mentioned when people give advice that salt should not be used on small fish, I hope they will be OK. I read that the meds should not be used on small fish which was why I stopped them and did the salt the next time. Not mad, just dissapointed and worried, I guess it's true, you can't believe everything you read on the internet, even when it seems like it comes from goldfish gurus

Everyone here does thing's a little bit diffren't than the next person. All Sandy was trying to do is give you her advice, Nothing more, Nothing less.

If you feel you have to find a better fourm, More power too you. Koko's in my opnion and a lot of other member's out there is one of the best GF site's around! Best of luck finding one that make's you feel more at home than here.

It's not that I don't think it is great here, seems like one of the best I have seen, but maybe the main posts about each remedy should be looked over by a real expert and it should be assured to have no conterindications, such as size of fish or certain types, just to make sure no one gets hurt. Even the main page (not in the forums) that talk about treating diseases doesn't have anything about size of fish affecting treatment.

I probably read over 30 topics in these forums about salt remedies, and the only thing I saw about salt and the size of the fish was about doing a salt dip, and being careful with small fish, making the dip very quick, and watching the fish very carefully. No where in the top topics from the seacrh "salt" does it say the size of fish appropriate. Pople just be careful what you preach, you could hurt somebody (some finned body)

I will go start to change out the water I guess, although I am hesitant to do this on one persons advice, since someone else may have a different opinion.

Like I said not mad (and definitely not at Sandy, I am glad to learn that it could be hurting my fish, so I can fix the problem), just worried and dissapointed (in myself mostly for again using the internet too ignorantly.)

Thanks for the advice, if anyone else has any opinions or advice I'd appeciate it, this fishy raising is a lot more invloved than I first thought when we got our 3 year old her first goldfish.

everything i've ever read about ich suggests raising the water temp to 82 slowly. ich cannot live at that temperature. i've never had luck with just salt as a treatment. i purchased ich medicine, treated them for 8 days, did a 25% water change and left the temp at 82 for another week. ich may seem to disappear and then comes back with a vengeance.

Does that mean now that they have had ich in their tank, it will bethere forever, and come back periodically? What a pain in the bum that would be!

Hi Marcie and welcome to our forum. We are a large group here,from "Newbies" to people with many years of fish experience,but none of us are experts.Most often,our own experiences leads us to offer what advice we give,and with this many people,you are going to hear alot of different advice and opinions.
Most of us have treated for one illness or another.We all have what works for us.Unfortunately one success,may not be a success for someone elses fish.
In treating Ich with actual Ich Meds that contain Formalin/Malachite Green,there is a much greater risk IMO,because of the ingredients/strength of these particular meds.You also have to keep the tank covered and dark during the treatment,or the light kills the effectiveness of the Meds.I personally have found salt safer myself ,but am very cautious with small fish for sure. No one can say for sure if the fish will have a bad reaction to the salt treatment until you try it.With each dosing of salt that I add,I am very carefully watching every movement of my fish,and if I even think that they're having a problem,I do an immediate water change.The thing is,that I've had fish that have had no problem at all,and I've had fish that couldn't even deal with 0.2% salt,but I didn't know this until I tried.
Any time that I treat fish for ich with a salt dosing,I normally keep the salt in the tank a week to 14 days after I see the last of the white spots. It is not until those white spots "fall" off the fish and become free swimming,that you can actually make them suseptible to treatment, Daily gravel vacs are important too for any free swimming parasites. Normally we do recommend you to keep the tank at a higher temp as that speeds their life cycle up and gets them to that free stage swimming and cuts treatment time down alot.With colder tank temps,it can sometimes take weeks longer to complete this.
Many people feel that Ich is in all fish tanks laying dormant until a fish gets vulnerable/low immunes for what ever reasons,so there is always a chance that this parasite could show up again..
If your fish have had the salt treatment for at least 7 days after the last spot of Ich,or if you feel that the fish are in danger of continuing on in salted water,then you rightfully should start changing out water

Advice is just that - advice.
I dont follow it for small fish but others do.
In fact after reading more and more about salt I dont even know if its worth using at all as you place a fish that may be sick under more osmoregulatory stress as its a fresh water animal not really designed for brackish environments.
And once again thats my opinion and the board strongly recommends the use of salt.

Im more in favour of using heat to combat ich as mentioned but goldfish arent tropical fish so you must add extra air and only do this for a couple of weeks at most.

The problem with your little guys is that ich weakens the immune system so letting in the bad bacteria thats in the tank. Normally a healthy tank has a good balance of bad and good bacteria and the fish thats healthy and with a strong immune system can easily cope with the bad bacteria that is around. Now, when a fish becomes weakened by a parasite as strong as ich it can make the fish more susceptible to the bacteria thats around causing internal problems or things like finrot and ulcers.
All you can do is treat the symptoms you see and hope that the fish is strong enough to cope with whatever else is going on.
If you can get medicated food then thats a good starting point and raise the temperature as well.
I lost a lot of very small fish due to ich and secondary infections so I know how it feels to see your fish start to decline and any advice is better than no advice

Marcie hi and welcome. I do hope that you reconsider your stay here. As Devs and Sandy have pointed out the board has expert advice as well as newbie advice.
That said, I being a Vet Tech know that medicine is not a science, it is a practice. Same applies here with the fish. There are guidlines but that is just it...........what works for some won't work for another.

To me salt is safer than useing the ich meds as well. All my fish have done well with salt, except a 4 inch oranda that I did a dip on.......it killed him within an hour. An accident, who knows. It could've been he is just too sensitve, something that differs from fish to fish. Just like humans.

If you have ever been to 2 different doctors for the same problem (both being of different ages and "times") then you know what I mean. The older doc always sticks by what he learned in school, while the newer doc has more upto date med he practices. Is one wrong while the other right?????????? Not usually, just different ways to "practice" medicine.

I hope that we have eased some of your fears, for Koko's really is the top of the ladder.

Hi everyone,
I did a couple of small water changes since yesterday and the fish seem to be getting more active.
The one smallest guy seems more active for sure. He was just laying around alot on the bottom "sleeping" and now he is moving around more. He is quite small, and also the one I sucked up in the suction hose a while back. He was the one who had the ich spots most recently, his name is Mushroom (our 3 year olds choice, which is actually quite cute now that I am used to it) Another thing I have noticed about him is that he doesn't eat much. He swims near the food, but can't seem to always get to it, and if he does get some, he often spits it out and the other fish steal it. I have treid hand feeding him, but it is hard. I even tried flakes, since that is what he was probably used to at the store (at first the sinking pelets seemed to confuse him) but sometimes it seems like he knows it is there but can't wuite get to it. Even on the bottom of the tank, he wants to eat it but he can't. He seems to swim a bit wierd noiw that he is not hanging out at the bottom, like he can't quite balance. Water prams are all the same as above. Could I have the filter on too high flow? His dorsal fin also has a kink in it, it stands straight up, but right where it comes out from his body at closest to his head it bends toward his back, I worry that it was damaged in the suction incident, not cuts but almost like it was broken? Or maybe his eyesite was damaged and he can't see well?

The other fish seems OK, except he is still laying at the bottom a bit. This fish is a pig and will steal anything Mushroom is trying to get. He (or she) seems very very fat, even though I really don't feed them much. This piggy fish will gorge on everything, much more than the other fish ever did.

I probably watch them too much, and I am making mountains out of mole hills. When your the stay at home mom of twin one year olds and a three year old the relaxation of watching fish swim around is addictive! They are on our kitchen counter, and I spend all day in there, so perhaps I pay too much attention to them? Most of the time they are swimming around fine, but since I check in on them every few minutes, I see everything.

On the plus side, they are much more aware of me again. They swim in the top right hand corner whenever they see me looking in because that is where they are fed. Sometimes it is so hard not to offer them a little something, since they do their little dance like they are begging for treats, but I don't want to overfeed them. Any advice on how much to feed young or small fish? I try to give them about 2 sinking pellets each, sometimes 3 if they are really small, or 2 little bits of peas or other veggie. Usually a couple sink to the bottom, and they are gone by the next day so I think they eat those too. My 3 year old put a small chunk of hambuger in when we had just the one fish, which I was worried about but boy did he like that. His name is Bruce (from Finding Nemo). WE had a Dory and Nemo too, but they died at 12 and 15 days from lack of knowledge (way too small a tank, didn't know anything about the cycle, and the fliter wasn't working right)

Well enough going on, I tend to ramble, again a side effect of all day with my 3 little munchkins who are as cute as heck, but not much for engaging conversations

Marcie

My goodness Marcie, twins and a 3yr old!!! I envy the fact you are able to have time to do anything.

Forgive me if I am wrong but it is only in the last few days that the water became good right? 0 ammonia and nitrites and 5 nitrates????
If so, some of this could be residule (sp) poor water issues. If often takes a bit for them to bounce back.
Especially if they were having issues with salt, ich may not be totally gone if you had to stop treatment. So there are multiple things that could be going on.
The spitting food could be a sign of the ich (parasites) often this is a symptom of it. So see if that clears up.

In my opinion I would keep doing small water changes daily (without crashing the cycle) to give them a fresh boost in water. Once you have done a 150% water change (in small doses) you can be sure the salt is all gone. That may help as well.

It is true that we have a tendency to "over analyze" things if we watch them too much. Heck even I do that. But it also helps you catch little things. don't be too hard on yourself, you'll soon figure out what is normal and what is not. That comes with experience and patience.

As for feeding, it is good not to over feed, as gf can be huge pigs of the water world. So feeding them twice a day what they can eat in 2 mins is a guide I use.

Hi Marcie! It's nice to meet you!
Another thing you might want to do is start a fish diary. Because you are so busy, it will help you keep track of things like water quality and water changes. Each time you do tank maintainence, write down what you did, how much water you changed, what additives you used etc... be exact in writing down your measurements and write down the date! It's easy to lose track of things when you have so much to do.

All you really need is a small notebook. Or you could just use a calendar that gives you room to write on. I write the date and what I did including all water perams. I also write down what and how much they were fed, along with general observations about their activity level, and behavior. If I notice something out of the ordinary, it gets written down. If I change additives i note what and how much I used. I found i was accidentaly overdosing my dechlorinator because I had written down how much I used.

My experience with the salt bath: When my little ones had Ich, I noticed that alot of the medicines available stated that they should not be used on small fish. That is why I chose to use salt. I did not leave them in the salt long enough and the Ich came back (it was at least one of the ladies here at koko's that told me to give them more time). The second time I got it right. All in all they were in the salt about three weeks total, with a break in between the first week and the last two of about 5 days. They came through it just fine, and there has been no re-occurance. I don't know how your fish will deal with salt, especially if they have other problems, to use it or not is a call only you can make. but having succeeded with it, I would do it again .

P.S the little fish in my avatar is one of my little ones. It is bigger than he actually is

Parasites are not always present to the eye,and a fish doesn't always come with just one type of Parasite Marcie,so keeping an extra eye out is really for the best.
For now,it's best to keep the params as pristene as possible,and to continue looking for signs,such as clamped,red,or split fins---scratching or flashing off surfaces-----gasping at surface---bottom sitting---pale,ragged,or swollen gills--spitting out food,etc. ,as they can all be a sign of Parasites.
The fish bottom sitting and having a rough go at it,still concerns me a bit.He could have signs of sb problems,but with the Ich in the tank and him spitting out food,I have to wonder

This is the new one right,that's bottom sitting and spitting?Is there any way that you can take a look at his gills and tell me,do they look red and meaty---pale or dark spots in areas,or ragged in looks?

Hey Marcie, how are things going?

I think the journal thing is a great idea, I am sure it would help aid you in keeping track of things.
I know alot of members use one, and with your busy life...........think it would be perfect.

Hi everyone, Sorry it has taken me so long to reply. JUst wanted to let everyone know that my fish seem to be doing great. I did several small water changes to remove the salt and they perked right up. I try to vacuum the gravel really well but it is hard. If I use the bigger vac I take out to much water and if I use the smaller vac it seems to not suck up as much crud. I tend to use the big one then pour some of the water back in from the top after the gunk has settled.

Both fish seem happy and healthy and it has been several weeks. No sign of ich or anything else. They no longer hang out at the bottom of the tank, and Mushroom (who is the smaller newer fish) is eating well. He still spits food out a bit but usually sucks it up again. He has a bit of a hard time eating as he is slower, and sometimes doesn't seem to catch or see the food, so I wonder if he has a bit of vision loss due to the siphon hose suck up incident. When he eats at the surface he pops out little bubbles which push the food away, and when the food sinks, he sometimes doesn't see it. He is actually getting a lot better though. I kind of wonder if it has just been a learning curve for him, as he is really good at eating flakes, which is probably what he was fed at wallymart. At first he couldn't eat sinking pellets peas or other sinking veggies at all, and now he does quite well. I had to let him actually take food of the tip of my finger for a while, because the other fish always stole Mushrooms helping, but he is getting quicker.

Someone aksed about their gills, which all look healthy and red.

Another ?? about feeding. Someone said as much as they can eat in 2 minutes, but do I put in as much food and watch them for 2 minutes, because they seem to sit and chew for quite a while, and sometimes I can even see the food being moved around in their mouths for a while. I usually give them 2 or 3 pieces about 1/2 the size of a grain of rice, maybe a bit smaller. That seems to be as much as they can fit in and then they chew for a few minutes.

Anyways, they seem happy, they flit around at the feeding spot whenever I am near, and they swim all over the rest of the time (except for nighttime when they hide).

I will think abiut making a note on my calender for water changes and prams etc. That would probably be about all I could find time for. I do make time once a week after everyone is in bed for water changes and tests (we have 2 tanks now, 1 with the goldies and another with saltwater), so I will make a note on the calender to help me remember all the details.

The water has been great for quite some time now.

Thanks everyone,
Marcie

That's great news Marcie

It's quite hard to calculate how much they can eat in 2 minutes - especially if you're feeding pellets but to make it simple, I usually drop about 3 pellets or 3 decent sized flakes each, once or twice a day.

Others may have different methods but as long as they're getting enough food in say 5 minutes without any wastage, then IMHO you're doing well

Heya Marcie,I'm really glad to hear that everyone is doing better.Now all you have to do now is shoe pics of these cute little buggers.