Hi all! Haven't been on the board in an age. Any ideas about my ranchu? I noticed a slightly raised bump on my ranchu 'Calypso's side just before leaving for Xmas. Since arriving back I see there is a second. They look rather like warts and seem to be protruding from below the skin surface rather than growing on top. She is white with some peach undertones and the lumps are this colour too. The lumps appear to be protruding from beneath the skin surface rather than growing on top - they're situated on her left flank towards the tail fin.

Tank = Juwel vision 180 (litres) running for @ a year
Filtres are built into canister - 1500 x Lit p/hr
3 other fancies @2.5 / 3.5 inches + snail
Prime no meds
Usually 60% weekly water changes (although I've been a bit slack over the Xmas period!)
Food = Tetra Fin Gold pellets + Sera Flora vegatable flakes
No other unusual behaviour
Haven't done water chem yet - will do now and post back. I'm guessing nitrate will be high as I'm overdue a water change.
Thanks in advance.

OK. Just done water chem
Am - 0
Nit - 0
Nat - 40 - 80! Eek! Overdue W/Change
PH - 8 (tap usually @ 7.8)

Any chance of a pic?

Hey Sandy. Nice to hear you again. I'm going to try posting a pic later this evening. My camera is no good so my friend is coming by with his.........

Oh man. I am having such trouble with my camera and can't get a pic together yet. I'm missing my lead to connect to the c'puter. So I'll have to get another tomorrow.
Meanwhile, I've been looking in my disease section and these bumps look a little like Pox in texture only they aren't white but peach coloured. Also, The new bump seems to have a red pin-prick centre so I'm also wondering about Lymphocystis as the surface is a little cauliflower-like; my book says this condition is uncommon in tresh water's, though. What about ulcers? What would cause them?

There is a viral disease very similar to lympho but i cant remember its name. If its similar to lympho then it could be this but it looks like warts growing on the surface rather than anything under the skin.
It doesnt sound too urgent so hopefully you can get pics by tomorrow.

[attachmentid=9595][attachmentid=9594]Trying to upload pics .......Does this work?

More.....? Why can't I upload more than 1 pic? When I hit the add attach it still has the last pic. I think I'm retarded.

[attachmentid=9601]Another?

Let's try this: there should be about 6 pics. OMG I really am useless

http://s126.photobucket.com/albums/p85/pixiefish_photos/

Its really frustrating isnt it when pics dont upload, your computer makes you look like an idiot. Its ok I think most of us have been there.

From what I can see it does look like the viral disease. There isnt much you can do about it i dont think as the warts just grow and groa and some will fall off. Its nowhere near his gills or eyes so its not life threatening.
Is he on his own? It is contagious though so you cant put any fiah with him and any that are will have to stay with him unless you can get it a seperate tank on its own to see if it has them.
Keep a set of water changing things just for his tank to be safe.
Sometimes the lumps grow inside the fish as well and these can get dangerous if they press on vital organs.
Really all you can do is keep an eye on him and hopefully they dont grow too big.

Of course it may be something else but from the pics thats my best guess.

Maybe someone else has other thoughts

Thanks for reply, Sandy.
I'm wondering what is best to do now. I have 3 other fish in the tank (+ my snail) who, so far, don't seem affected. I don't have another tank at the moment but I do have some extra filters, so I guess I could go buy a Clearseal to use as a sick tank. But I fear it would be useless at this point as presumably the others have already been exposed the virus? Hmmn....

Im afraid the others may be infected but you cant tell that for sure.
If you could try and get the sick one another tank then watch the others for lumps.

OK Thank you

Today the raised lumps seem more-or-less to have gone but have left a red dot at the base (Looks like she's been pricked) Also, she seems to be spending a lot of still time resting on the bottom which is unusual; she can swim when I attract her attention but compared to the others, who are generally milling around the tank, she seems less active. Is there anything I have overlooked or should do? Salt? Meds?

Eek! She's almost constantly on the bottom now and doesn't move her fins much at all. She can swim up but needs to make a huge effort to get there and keep herself buoyant. The minute she stops wiggling she sinks like a stone. Does anyone have any ideas?

Help! I don't know what to do about my fish.
She's been bottom sitting for @ 3 days and seems to be very ill. She's getting wedged behind the filter canister the whole time and really not moving at all. She can still swim up if I make her but sinks the minute she stops swimming. She also seems to be gulping quite fast. Is this just SBD or is it connected to the warts/lumps which are now gone? I don't know what to do for her. The params are fine except for nitrate which has climbed up again - 40/80 (who can tell?) so I'm going todo a massive water change now but what else? The others are fine.

I've started a new thread as the symptoms are changing and no one has posted back. Aaaaagh!
Calypso started out with wart-like bumps (see other thread) which appeared to have dropped off a couple of days ago, leaving two red spots below. Around this time she started bottom sitting and has become more and more listless as the days have gone by. She keeps swimming into the gap behind the filter canister where she just lies on the floor and gulps. I have just noticed that her left pectoral fin seems red-streaked. She can still swim up when stimulated and seems keen to eat but she looks so lifeless otherwise that I am very worried. Sandy thought the lumps might be viral but now her symptoms sound like septicaemia. I've just done a complete water change as the nitrate was high. Other than that the params were fine. HELP please.

Pixie ,I have merged your threads as even if the syptoms have changed,the fact is that it all started with the bumps.If you start posting multiple posts,then it gets rather confusing for everyone to have all needed information.
Anyway....Most times when you see one or multiple lumps just pop up out of nowhere,it tends to turn out to be bacterial.The red dots that you're seeing right now along with the streaking all fall in hand. I think the infection may be staying kind of "idle" because of your 60% water changes and the fact that you have good filtration,but not quite enough to kick out the illness completely. The first thing that you need to do,is to water change and get those Nitrate levels down under 20.
I know you Uker's can't get ahold of medicated food ,which would be my first reaction to this,so I would then recommend a broad spectrum antibiotic that covers both gram negative and gram positive bacteria.
Sometimes keeping your water pristene does the trick,but I think that if your Ammonia/Nitrates are pretty consistent at reading 0,I would try the meds myself.This is only my opinion of course.
Sorry if you feel that you haven't gotten the help you've needed.Between the Holidays ,work,etc,it does get kind of crazy at times. Hopefully this is bumped up and someone can help you with UK meds. Good luck.

Devs! Thank God for you!
OK. I'll get to the Aquatic store tomorrow and look for the antibiotics.
I feel kinda guilty as over the Xmas period things were crazy - my lovely grandma died, and between the trips up and down the country and hospital vigils, the w/changes suffered and the nitrates have escalated. I hope I haven't ended up killing my fish!
I imagine Esmerelda the snail will have to come out of the tank during meds?
Thanks so much
x

I'm so sorry about your grandma Pixie.It's hard enough when it's not the holidays.
Your Nitrates aren't the worst,but if a fish has a low immune system ,it will be affected by them immediately.
How often do you do gravel vacs,evry time you change water out? Your tank measures out to be around 39 gallons or so,US,so with 4 fish,you really need to keep the filters good and the gravel vacs/water changes, consistent.Hopefully fishy will be feeling better soon.Keep us posted.

Thank you, Devs.
I always gravel vac when I water change and try to do quite high change outs (sometimes 100%)
- trouble is, since Nov they've often been overdue as I was super-stressed and away a lot.
I think 180 litres is about 47 US gals and 39 UK, so with the snail too, you're right that I need to keep on top of the water quality.
If I can only get my new python to work, x2 weekly changes will be a doddle.
Meds tomorrow.......

Devs - I hope you're back on today......OK. I've just dosed with Interpet anti-bac treatment. It was the only one the lfs had and the head guy - who isn't a complete idiot (unlike the others) said it's a pretty good product. The good news is that since the W/change last night the nitrate is down to 10!!!!! the lowest ever. The fish seemed much more active after the change last night but this morning was very weak and hiding under the Java. I was surprised just now at feeding time to see how quickly she re-animated and went for the pellets but now she's back on the bottom again - under the Java and still.
So I have 2 questions: 1)The Lfs guy recommended using salt as well - what's your view on this?
2)Will the meds affect the snail? I've put her in my 2 gal just incase. Unfortunately it has no filter and I can't remember what to do vis-a-vis water-changing ie how much/how often?
Thanks,

Just updating while I'm waiting for someone to answer.
Since dosing the tank with meds yesterday afternoon, my fish looks very weak this morning. She has been lying under the java fern since yesterday hardly moving at all. She did try to eat when I put food in, but today for the first time she seems unable to swim up and can only wriggle on the bottom. She is a white ranchu and I'm starting to think there is red showing through below her skin and am worried that she may have suffered internal/organ damage. I'm concerned that this treatment has come too late - initially it seemed her problem may have been viral and so I had not treated her. Oh God.....
Questions: how soon should I see improvement from meds if she is able to get better?
: how and when does one know it's time to euthanize?
Hope someone sees this soon.

Help! Anyone?

Aaaah! my thread keeps getting missed out!
While I'm waiting, I've noticed that her caudal fin is starting to be very tattered. Is this fin rot as well or just damage because she's wriggling on the gravel all the time. The 2nd dose is due on Thurs and I'm wondering if there is anything else I should be doing. The Medication box suggested salting to 0.9% along with the meds but it seems very high and I don't want to do it without say-so from someone experienced here first.
Any help welcome.....PLEASE

I'm starting a new thread. I know I probably shouldn't but for some reason my existing one (Now Bottom-sitting and Red-Streaked Fin) keeps getting missed and I haven't been able to get any answers for 2 days. I'm so worried and think this fish will die if I don't do something fast.
Although I dosed with Anti-bac 2 days ago my fish shows little sign of improvement. She is still hiding under the fern and doesn't move much at all. She still has an appetite and occasionally makes a huge effort to swim up to the surface but falls back down, letting out bubbles. Then she gasps like mad and doesn't move again for ages. I'm wanting to make sure that I'm treating her for the right problem.
To recap: After two wart-like bumps seemed to have come to a head, they disappered leaving two red spots below. A little later she began bottom sitting and breathing rather fast (two gasps p/second) Then I noticed her left ventral fin was slightly streaked. Last night the left side of her caudal fin was starting to look tattered and also streaked. Today she seems unable to swim even when I touch her and I think she is just beginning to pine cone.
Was I right to treat for an internal bacterial infection or could it be something else. Or could it be that I've treated too late and everything is just breaking down. Should she have shown some improvement by now or does it take longer than 2 days? I don't know what to do for her and really need help.
Many thanks

Sorry,I can't help,but I hope your fish gets better.Just wanted to help this get seen.

I've decided this needs to be in the emergency section - my previous thread (Now Bottom-sitting and Red-Streaked Fin) has been in the diagnosis section but I haven't been able to get any answers for 2 days. I'm so worried and think this fish will die if I don't do something fast.
Although I dosed with Anti-bac 2 days ago my fish shows little sign of improvement. She is still hiding under the fern and doesn't move much at all. She still has an appetite and occasionally makes a huge effort to swim up to the surface but falls back down, letting out bubbles. Then she gasps like mad and doesn't move again for ages. I'm wanting to make sure that I'm treating her for the right problem.
To recap: After two wart-like bumps seemed to have come to a head, they disappered leaving two red spots below. A little later she began bottom sitting and breathing rather fast (two gasps p/second) Then I noticed her left ventral fin was slightly streaked. Last night the left side of her caudal fin was starting to look tattered and also streaked. Today she seems unable to swim even when I touch her and I think she is just beginning to pine cone.
Was I right to treat for an internal bacterial infection or could it be something else? Or could it be that I've treated too late and everything is just breaking down? Should she have shown some improvement by now or does it take longer than 2 days? I don't know what to do for her and really need help.
Many thanks

I realize I should add -

the wart-like bumps appeared around Dec 29th and the bottom-sitting started on Jan 4

Hi Pixiefish, this is such a tough one because Devs nailed it with the bacterial infection - and it may be a bad one. Unfortunately I'm just not sure what's considered a good med for this but will recall Blue (one of our membres), along with other UK brothers and sisters have had great success using Sera Baktopur Direct combined with Sera Baktopur and both meds are readily absorbed by the skin so are successful in killing the bacteria.

Is there any way you can do a ring around to you local fish shops and ask if they can get them in? I woulnd't go with 0.9% salt - infact I think meds will be your best bet here so I would try and see if you can get the Sera products

And yes, I'd keep your little snail separated during treatment.

PS. I'm so sorry about your grandma

Also - I've merged your other thread with this one so it's now in 911.

Hi Jude

Im really sorry your other thread was getting missed.
It sounds to me like a lot of bacterial maybe even viral issues as well going on with this fish and despite your best efforts it all seems to be getting too much for her.

Have you got the temperture raised at all as this helps boost the system?

If she is starting to pinecone then the kidneys are damaged and it looks like all her vital organs will soon follow.

If this was my fish Jude I would seriously consider putting her to sleep.

Im sorry.

Ive just read through your previous thread Pixie and im sorry your having such problems.

I really dont know enough about the warts/bumps to know whether its a viral or bacterial infection and I suppose the only real way to know is to do scrapes and look under a microscope but thats usually beyond most fishkeepers.

Biggest prob for people living in the UK is getting hold of something that will be effective with bacterial infections. Ive used the Interpet No. 9 treatment several times on different fish and it never worked unfortunately. The best thing you can do is try is antibiotics.

To get them legally you will need to visit a vet. Ive looked up the PFK guide and for London its listed as

W.H. Wildgoose Cert FHP, 655 High Road, Leyton, London, E10 6RA. phone: 0208 539 3538.
Even if you cant visit it might be worth giving them a ring and seeing even if you could talk through the symptoms, some vets will do that with you for no cost. To get the drugs though you prob would need to see them.

Online you can purchase a product called Sera Backtopur Direct which does contain the antibiotic nifurpirinol. Its one of the few antibiotics that is actually well absorbed from the water. I would be hesitant at using it though if you feel he would be too weak (and he does sound weak) to cope as it might push him over the edge. He would need to be placed in isolation for that treatment as it will kill your bio filter.
Available from:

(http://www.diamond-discus.com/Diamond%20Discus/Online%20Shop/Water%20Conditioning/Water%20Treatments%20-%20Sera/Water%20Treatments%20-%20Sera.htm)

(http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/fish/food/medication_and_vitamins/30205)

The gasping you describe sounds like he has rather compromised breathing/gill function. Can you see the colour of the gills? Pale gills would be a bad sign and an indication that his organs may be starting to fail in which case there is really very little you can do.

I really dont envy the position your in. Its such a stress when your pets are ill.

Sands, have you tried the Sera Baktopur and Baktopur direct? Are they successful? I've posted in pixie's other thread that these may be an option and I know Blue has had success with them.

What say you?

Unfortunately heavy breathing/gasping can also mean the heart's under stress so with increased pressure of the heart comes a more laboured breathing - this is very common when fish are ill.

It's definitely worth trying though and even though weak, a good med can help resolve it. Yazoo, good on you for posting the vet information and if you can Pixie, try to get some oxolinic acid or metronidazole tablets - both excellent antibacterial meds.

I hope your little girl survives this - and with your will to help, she may do ok

I havent tried those but I suppose anything is wirth a go, though with the pineconing it looks less and less likely of a recovery. But then Im not an optimist by nature.
If you can get the sera products then try them Jude.

Jees. Thank you both SO much.
Just before making the necessary calls, I wanted to update:
have checked the gills which look red not pale: the streaking on the left caudal fin seems redder now and her fins seem to be looking more ragged each time I look: surprisingly she suddenly made a big effort to swim up and thrashed around for a while - I thought she was too weak - resting again now.
At the moment she's in the maintank - Juwel 180 - with the other 3. I've not salted at all (ever) and as I said I dosed with Interpet Anti-Bac 9 on Monday. I don't have a sick tank which I would need for the sera BUT if could get any of the others......
How soon could I dose the tank and should I run carbon first?
How does all this affect the other fish who seem fine at the moment?
Thanks a million,

Many thanks for your help. I think to save confusion I should reply in the 911 section from now on.

If you can find a big plastic tub, this should help with medicating. In Australia, we're able to get these 20 to 30 gallon tubs for under $20 and you can also get smaller ones but I would try to remove/isolate her from the others. The only thing you would need is an airstone and undertake large daily waterchanges to ensure the water stays perfect.

The problem with treating in the main tank is your healthy fish run the risk of contamination plus the meds will destroy your good bacteria so there's a very good chance the water quality would deteriorate quickly. Have you tested your parameters lately? What are your readings?

I always prefer to treat for bacteria in a tub and include an air pump with decent power because meds will deplete the oxygen considerably. You can treat your main tank but you'll run the rist of starting your cycle over again plus, if the other's aren't sick, they should be removed from medication

So you still have the other meds in the water? Yes, you can run the carbon for 24 hours but an additional large waterchange would help also

PS. All three threads are now merged together to keep the information in one place...

I went and looked in my fish cupboard and found 4 doses of maracyn 2 and 12 doses of maracyn.
I think the dose is 1 per 10 gallons is it everyday for 5 days and 2 doses on day 1.

If so then i have enough for 5 days if you use the maracyn up to day 4 and one dose of maracyn 2 on day 5 and an extra dose of maracyn 2 on day 1. This is for 30 gallons.

Jen or anyone, is this going to work?

Well thank you all for trying to help. But sadly Calypso has just been euthanized.
Thanks to Yazoo's vet info I was able to find a fish vet near me; he said that she was in kidney failure and even if the infection could be cleared she'd probably sustained organ damage which would not be reversable.
I don't know if any of you remember but I got her from the Lfs after their display tank had crashed last year. She was one of only 2 to survive and had always had swim bladder problems and often looked rather bloated. The vet said she'd probably been weakened by that previous illness and clearly wasn't ever 100% healthy to be flipping over and floating as much as she did. Poor fishy.

So now I want to make sure I do the right thing for the other fish......

I did a total w/change on Sun eve. Params today are:
Am: 0.0
Nit: 0.0
N'ate: 20
PH: 8.0

Should I......
a)give the 2nd dose of anti-bac tomorrow - just to be sure? Or
b) do a w/change and run carbon to remove them? I'm not sure which is best. The other fish look fine and are behaving normally.
c) Should I salt? I do have a snail and am unsure what % they can handle before it's detrimental.
Lastly, I have a lot of gravel which I'm scared may be harbouring bacteria. If I do 2x weekly gravel vac for the next few weeks will it be enough to make sure the tank is OK?

Thank you all again for trying so hard.

Pixie

Awwww Pixie! I haven't visited Koko's for ages, and when I do I find you having such a hard time!

Anyway, what I wanted to say was that I managed to get hold of some Maracyn 1 & 2 from a lovely lady called Nancy Cowell who has an eBay shop called yourpetstore. She doesn't seem to have anything at the moment but it might be worth emailing to find out if she's got some at her "terrestrial" shop! She also got me some Metromeds and MediGold, although she doesn't sell them herself. You can email her through eBay. The link is:

http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...id=yourpetstore

and click on "Contact Member", although I think you have to be a registered user first.

Hope you have some success somewhere along the line. It takes me right back to this time last year when Colin was causing me so much angst. I really feel for you.

OH NO!!! I've just read your post that you must have posted while I was writing this. I'm SO SO sorry!

Calypso

Aww im sorry that was the outcome Pixie but at least she got the help that she needed and you did the right thing.

Ive often read about SBD fish that end up sucummbing to bacterial infections.

Personally I would run the carbon and not dose with the Interpet again. But thats my own personal opinion as I didnt find it to be of much use and prefer to not use meds unless they are definitely needed.

I also have never salted my main tank so hopefully someone else can help there.

Again, sorry for your loss.

Have you tried a salt bath? If the fish is pineconing, you should read koko's article/treatment for dropsy. I've used it before with good results. Of course if the fish is too far gone, it may stress it more but it sounds like its in pretty bad shape

Pixie I am sorry to hear everything going on. Also on the loss of your fish, hopefully the other will do ok with what you are doing. Hang in there, we will help best we can.
The help from Sandy and Jen are great, they know what meds and stuff you can use over there. I will keep my fingers crossed for you.

I too would suggest clearing the tank of the meds and running carbon. Do half water changes every day for a few days to get your gravel cleaned and then twice a week for a month to make sure theres no bacteria.
You dont need to add any salt.


Im sorry about the outcome. Its always a hard time to lose a loved fish.

Thanks for all your replies. Also the advise on post care is really helpful - I'll do as you suggest, Sandy. My python fits the outside tap so that will make things a little easier with the frequent w/changing
Dawn, it's great to hear you again. I remember you so well with your huge and old fish and had been thinking that you'd disappared from the board for a while. Thank you for the meds link; it's virtually impossible to get Medigold here due to the import restrictions - so that's a great resource to have. Look forward to seeing around the board.
Pixie