I noticed last night when I feed the fish dinner about 9pm (quarter piece spirulina each & some flakes to share) that Bobble's swimming was a little jerky I guess, she is usually quite a graceful and effortless swimmer, very fast, can swim quickly & accurately. I woke up at 3:30am and she is at the top of the tank, she can swim down to the bottom but it appears to be difficult, she appears to be pulled to the surface by her tail almost. This is unusual because normally at night time she would be laying at bottom of tank with her tankmate. Two things I can think of that might be related are:
1. When I feed them the bloodworms on Thursday for the first time I cut the cube into 4 pieces and put 1 in the tank intending it to be for both of them but Bobble (who this post is about) grabbed and ate the whole piece before it could defrost and separate. So she got no more food that night and next morning gave peas, no dinner Friday night, feed normally Saturday morning & night). She seemed to be fine, no issues swimming until last night (Saturday) / this morning (Sunday). In general she is a piggy when it comes to food, she probably gets more of the flakes when I feed than the other fish, which is why I only put a small amount of flake in and hand feed each of them spirulina or peas to try to control how much each of them gets.
2. Anytime after she is feed, she alternates between searching the gravel and side of filters for food and gulping at surface of tank, she does not gulp at surface at any other time.

What can I do to help her please? I have searched similar posts some say fast her, some say feed peas, some say do both, time to do these also differs & number of peas also differs, so what should I do please? Should I be moving her to a hospital tank and giving medicine of some sort (I'm in Australia, so don't have access to the medicated food like those mentioned on this site)? Tank details etc below. Thanks in advance for any advice.


Ammonia Level 0
Nitrite Level 0
Nitrate Level was a bit above 10 last night before water change
Ph Level 7.8

Tank size and How long has it been running? about 140L (150cmLx27cmWx35cm high). Running for about 4 months since 5th August was an upgrade from a 30L tank which had already been cycled, transferred all filter media, gravel, water etc from smaller tank and then topped up with more water.

How often do you change the water and how much? Weekly about 38L - 45L. Did the water change yesterday of 45L. Always refill buckets immediately after change, add Aqua Start A (ammonia & chlorine neutraliser) & Aqua Start B (deioniser & electrolytic salts says to remove toxic metal ions from town water) and leave to sit for a week until the next water change

Filtration? Two filters, both Eheim aquaballs 2208. Each capable of looking after a tank of 30-60L & each can do 480L/hr. 1 aqua one filter as well. Removed the aqua one filter last night after water change to another smaller tank.

Water additives/conditioners? Aqua start A & B (as mentioned above). Used to add Cycle but stopped doing that a few months ago.

What do you feed your fish? Tetrafin goldfish flakes, nutrafin goldfish colour enhancing pellets,HBH 8 Veggie flakes, wardley spirulina discs, cooked deshelled peas, frozen goldfish food (rarely only as a treat, maybe once per week or even fortnight) and on Thursday just gone bought frozen bloodworms for the first time (also was intending to only give rarely as a treat, it says it has been treated with ultraviolet light to kill harmful bacteria). The flakes are always pre-soaked for several minutes in a cup of tank water, the pellets also are soaked and squished. Each day they get feed a small amount twice a day, usually each meal consists of some spirulina (generally hand-fed as one fish is a bit of piggy and the other fish is slow and his wen blocks his front on vision a little, a quarter to half a piece each) and some flakes or peas (probably twice a week).

Medications add to the tank? None

How many fish in the tank and there size? Two orandas (grey/silver one is Bobble, orange one is Bubble), they are about 10cm from nose to tail, so about 6-7cm from head to end of body, plus another few cm in tail.

Any new fish added to the tank? No

Any unusual findings on the fish? Such as "grains of salt", bloody streaks, frayed fins, fungus Any unusual behavior? Like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.... As described above plus After being feed, when they are searching around gravel for more food, Bobble alternates between searching the floor of tank, eating off side of filters and gulping at surface of tank, she does not gulp surface of tank at any other time. The other fish does not do this, the other fish sometimes sits at bottom of tank sleeping but otherwise both fish swim around, search for food, or swim up to side of tank to greet us anytime we walk past. Took both fish to vet on 24th October as was concerned about the other fish who sometimes sits at bottom and whose red veins are very prominent in his tail (the fish is orange though so maybe it just makes the veins more obvious) and sometimes gets a red mark on his chin. Vet said both were fine, did some scrappings of orange fish and said no bacteria or parasites. Also found some small thin white/clear wormy things when gravel vac-ing, caught some and took to vet to exam, again said no bad bacteria or parasites.

Sorry to hear you have a sick fishy.

In my opinion a couple things could be going on.
1. is the start of SBD, whether or not from a bacterial infection or gulping air.
2. is the bloodworms having a parasite or bacteria in them.

I have heard of many members having issues with bloodworms causing bacterial infections or parasites. Even though it says it is treated not to contain those things....................well I am not sure if I believe it. Sorry not educated enough on that subject to say whether or not it would be right or not.

I was researching your problem in Doc Johnson's gf book and it is mentioned both of what I have described above.
So the treatment would be to start injections for a bacterial infection, per Doc. Maybe your vet would be able to help with this.
I don't know if you could use a medicated food or not. Especially being in Aus.
Next it mentions that most underlying causes for this condition based on it being a bacterial infection and not the beginings of SBD the main culprit would be parasites.
Since the vet scraped them before, maybe the parasite was introduced via the bloodworms???????? Or it went undetected, which is not unlikely.

Either way antibotics is Doc's main choice for this. That is of course and keeping the nitrates and water in perfect condition.

Good luck with him.

Thanks LaurieP. The other fish ate the same bloodworms and is not having this problem. So maybe the SBD is more likely? The fish vet is only available here on Tuesdays and with Tuesday being boxing day, he may not even be available until the following week so is there anything I can do to help her until then?

To be honest, I am not sure. However as with other things, just because it is effecting one doesn't mean it isn't the cause. So i wouldn't rule it out at this point. (the bloodworms).

I would fast her for a couple days, followed by 2 days of peas. (actually both fish).
Then if you have access to a medicated food then start that. Get a jump on it. If not well then play it by ear.

Keep us posted.

Good news. She is able to swim anywhere in the tank she wants again (she improved later the day I first posted by herself). But I still wonder if they are sick, because their behaviour is a bit weird. Have been giving them just 2 baby peas each day since then and am ordering the Fancy Goldfish book you mention. We don't have medicated food here, I have a few different medicines in my cupboard (tri-sulfa tablets, tetracycline tablets, fungus & finrot, white spot remedy).

They have been doing some weird things for a while (few months), which is why I took them to a vet. Anyway here's the things they do that I think are a bit weird (but being new to looking after fish I don't know whether these things are really an indication of a problem or just weird habits that my fish have):
* After eating, Bobble gulps at surface of tank, otherwise she seems fine (often she makes very sharp turns when swimming but that just seems to be her way). She used to yawn 2-3 times a day but haven't seen her yawn recently.
* My other fish, Bubble, does not ever gulp at surface, but he does seem to spend a lot of time sitting on the gravel at the bottom of the tank. He always gets up to greet us if we are near the tank and he does swim around other times too but he seems to spend a lot of time sitting on the gravel. Past couple of days I have noticed him yawn more often.
* Bubble's tail also has quite noticeable red veins but asked the vet about this when I took them there and he wasn't concerned about it. 3 times now he has gotten a red spot under his chin on the right side which then becomes a red splotch before disappearing, 1st time this happened was just after their first trip to the vet. When they were at the vet he scraped Bubble's tail, he did not take gill clippings as he said their gills looked fine.

Any ideas? Are these things normal for goldfish or a sign of a problem? Thanks again.

Bobble has been acting weird all day today. We had been feeding her just 1-2 peas per day since Sunday so last night and this morning introduced a tiny piece of spirulina too. She behaved fine last night and this morning but since midday has been spending a lot of her time at the top of the tank. Not sure exactly what she is doing there as she stops if I go near the tank and will swim back down. Mostly she goes to the same one corner to spend time at the surface. She is opening and closing her mouth there that much I can see, not sure if she is looking for food since we haven't feed them much or gulping air.

I am wondering if I should put her in a hospital tank and give her some medicine? If so, I have tri-sulfa tablets and also tetracycline tablets (both made by Aquarium Science in Australia), which should I give?

Thanks for your help.

Hi Katrina, I would keep an eye out and watch for any deterioration. It sounds to me like there's an issue with the swimbladder and mirrors the behaviour of one of my orandas who wedges herself up in the corner of the tank. I think the reason she prefers this part is because it's free from strong current.

I did a test on this to see if it could've been related to bacteria or if it was swim bladder problems so made up a batch of gel food containing blended veggies, salmon, vitamins and garlic and found her floating issues improved enormously. If she eats everyone's portion, she gets a little floaty but it doesn't seem to have any adverse affects.

So unless you see any real symptoms such as stringy poop, redness, clamped fins etc., I would forgo the meds for now and try changing the diet - try to remove flake food from the diet for a while. Then monitor for any improvement or deterioration

Thanks JenW. That's what I'll do. She is a little piggy so we have been hand feeding recently to try to limit her share but sometimes she is smarter and trickier than we are . Will try her on a diet of spirulina and peas for a while then. Is there going to be enough nutritional value in just those two for her? If you don't mind, could I please get your recipe for the gel food you mention (rough quantities, what I should do etc)? Thanks again.

I usually make up a fairly decent sized batch but here's the rough quantities:

- 1 cup frozen beans
- 1 cup broccoli (either frozen or fresh)
- 1/2 cup of peas
- 1/2 cup of chickpeas
- 2 large cloves of crushed garlic
- 2 teaspoons of pet vitamins (purchased from petbarn)
- 1 medium sized can of salmon in water
- 1 small box of frozen spinach

I then blend them all up so it's very fine and gluggy and make sure i put a couple of drops of prime conditioner to remove harmful chemicals from the water. Then I add 3 tablespoons of gelatin to a small amount of hot water and mix until it's a blended well and slowly add to the mix with a whisk and whisk like mad Then put it all into a cleaned out icecream container and place in the fridge to set.

Once it's set to a nice hard wedge, i keep enough in the fridge for a couple of days and then cut the rest into small pieces and wrap in plastic and put in the freezer for daily feeding

My oranda is doing the same thing right now. But it doesn't happen if i don't feed him.. And i've never fed him bloodworms. It might be SBD but I'm not quite sure..

Hope everything works out with your fish!

Thanks JenW for the recipe. Thanks Carmel for your reply too.

She seemed super lethargic on Sunday which was probably the most scary thing she has done as she never keeps still normally. So we decided to move her to a tank by herself and gave her some Tri-Sulfa medicine. There were a couple of hours last night where she was darting non-stop around the tank, trying to scratch her sides, in between going to the surface and gulping. We turned all the lights in the room off and after a couple of hours she was much calmer. Today she still goes to the surface gulping but it seems to be mostly after food, she is not darting around crazily either which is a relief. I wish I knew why she does it. The going to surface and gulping seems to be voluntary because she can swim easily up, down etc, do goldfish get bad habits?

Carmel, if you figure out why your oranda does this, let me know please. I hope your fish stops doing it too.

THat sounds like she has a parasite. It might be time to address this.

Have you ever treated her for parasites?

Jungle Labs has a good parasite med Called Parasite Clear. This is a blanket treatment. It gets "most" parasites, flukes are not covered in this.
Salt is another good thing to use for most parasites.

If it were me I would salt up to 0.3% (if you're not sure how to get there let us know) and then add the parasite clear with the salt. See if this clears it up.

Hi LaurieP. I don't think we have JungleClear here, I think tetracycline I have does parasites, I will take a look. How does a fish get a parasite? We haven't added any new fish or plants or anything for months and months and months. We just have the 2 fish and got them both about 2 weeks apart from the same pet shop back around April in 2006. I have seen aquarium salt sold at the pet shop but have never used it so don't know how. The aqua start B we add says it contains deioniser and electrolytic salts so I don't know if that is the same or not (I suspect not). She is behaving much better today, back to just gulping after food, she is not trying to scratch herself on anything anymore so maybe the Tri-Sulfa is helping and she did heaps and heaps of poos last night so maybe a week of eating very little is helping too.

Where are you at?

I would doubt that tetracycline does parasites since it is a antibotic. Antibotics won't touch parasites. So unless there is something different with that particular tetra then ?????? Not sure where that info came from.

99% of all gf that come from the lfs have at least one parasite. Most have 2. They lay dormant until the fish's immune system is compromised with an illness or poor water quality. Then they sprout forth.
So knowing this we know that most likely the fish came with parasites. Unless you have treated for them they are still there.

Salt is a natural parasite killer, it doesn't get them all but is very good to help. You'll want to get the freshwater salt.

The meds are probably helping with her illness, which is making her look better and helping her immune system fight harder. But to actually be working on the parasite........sorry to say I don't think so.

Hi LaurieP,

I ust got the Fancy Goldfish book by Dr Johnson & R. Hess and have been madly reading it. As you said salt seems to be go. We have finished the course of Tri-Sulfa and she seems much better than last week (she is not constantly at the surface and is not floaty at all) but she still goes to surface and gasps/eats the surface after eating, so I think we will get some salt and try that (maybe watch her for a day or so first, all the water parameters are still perfect). We are in Australia and I have not seen at the pet shops any of the medicines you mention or any of the medicines for parasites/flukes mentioned in the book so I am not sure what to do there if medicine other than salt is needed.

I do have one question though, will salt harm the good bacteria in the filter and ruin the cycle? If so, will moving her back to a quarantine tank and treating her with salt there work or does the main tank need to be treated too?

Thanks again.

Katrina

Katrina that is the good part of salt. It doesn't mess with the cycle!!! Yay, I know. Most everything else does.

Let me notify some of the Aussie members they may be able to help you with the meds aspect.

Hi Katrina, when I used tetracycline - my fish had the same reaction. Darting all over the place but not for long, just until they got used to having the meds in the tank.

Your fish exhibits signs that some of my fish do and they're healthy - especially the gulping at the surface after eating etc. They've done this for some time now and even having loads on aeration in the tank doesn't resolve it. Sometimes their poop will float on the top of the tank and the consistency is both solid and full of air bubbles - so I make sure I only feed food they need to get from the bottom of the tank. Unfortunately they'll still gulp madly from top at times and this is when air bubbles are present...

I think if we're to look for an accurate diagnosis, we need to establish what symptoms are present

- how does her poop look?
- is there any yawning at all?
- any redness/markings on the skin?
- any lethargy resulting in bottom resting and clamped fins?
- is there any gasping or heavy breathing?
- how is her appetite?
- can you check to see whether her gills look a nice meaty pink?

Please post back soon

Hi JenW,

- how does her poop look? Sometimes short brown or green (depending on what she ate), sometimes long and thin and paler with air bubbles (sometimes it floats, sometimes it sinks). Basically her poop sounds like what you describe for your fish. All her food is given to her under water, I soak any flake food so it sinks and if I am hand feeding spirulina or peas or frozen food I put my hand down into the middle so she is not gulping at surface.
- is there any yawning at all? Haven't noticed anything lately, used to be once or twice a day.
- any redness/markings on the skin? None, the other fish Bubble has on 3 occassions had a red pimple appear under his chin which turns into a bigger patch/splotch and then disappears.
- any lethargy resulting in bottom resting and clamped fins? None, again Bubble sometimes sits at the bottom but I think he is sleeping. Most of the day the two of them swim around searching for food.
- is there any gasping or heavy breathing? No just the gulping at the surface like clockwork after eating. Sometimes (rarely) at other times during the day she might do it too even if she hasn't eaten for a while. The exception was last week before we gave her the Tri-Sulfa she was constantly at the surface and seemed unable to stay down.
- how is her appetite? Super piggy, would eat all day long if I let her, we have to hand-feed them to make sure she doesn't eat too much and the other fish gets some.
- can you check to see whether her gills look a nice meaty pink? Tried to see but she doesn't open her gills much.
-there should be heaps of oxygen in the water as we have 3 filters going in the tank, which move the water at the surface

Well basically at the moment, since she is back to normal apart from the gulping at the surface after eating we are trying to decide whether that is a normal thing or if it is not, then treating with salt. It relieved me a lot to hear you say your fish do that too. So maybe it is normal and we should just leave her alone?

It sounds like she's doing well

You could try a test and buy an air pump - they're invaluable even with good filtration, especially when the temps get higher and see if adding extra air to the tank will help otherwise I think she's stuck with the same affliction as my fish and will continue to gulp air from the surface, but it's nothing life threatening (unless oxygen in the tank is low or parameters are off).

I don't think salt will do anything unless there's a definite problem but sometimes it can act as a tonic. I only use it on new fish and dose to 0.3% just to knock any nasties off their skin or if there's a parasite present.

Me? I'd do nothing and try to keep foods that contain more natural ingredients - it seems to work well and it'd be a good test to see if it helps you. My problem is no matter how long I soak flake or pellet food for, it still causes floating issues which is why I have to make gel food unfortunately..

So hopefully it's nothing and the signs definitely point to it - so that's a big plus

Thanks JenW! I'm glad to hear you say you think it is nothing

We never treated with salt when we bought them from the pet shop as we didn't know we should but we bought them months and months ago (I think April 2006) so I hope it's ok. Fish are much trickier than I realised, it's difficult to tell weird behaviour and illness apart from each other! Thanks again.

Forgot to add, she still did it after meals with an air pump too.

Ahhhh, see? she's as loopy as my fish

In colder temps, parasites can lay dormant for some time although with our warmer climate, they'll usually manifest themselves before now so I don't think parasites are an issue. If they were to lay dormant, summer's the time for them to hatch.... or if your fish suffered a lowered immunity at any stage over those months, again, you should've seen something by now As she's showing no other symptoms, I'd say she has a clean bill of health barring the issues with her swim bladder. This can cause problems down the track which is why i'm constantly trying to avoid feeding food that exacerbates the problem.

Keep us posted though and if you see anything that causes you concern, please post back and I agree, they can be real tricky little things

My Muffy is floating as well and it is exactly what described here. I moved her to the hospital tank, fasted, feeding peas but nothing helped so far.
I have since switched to Omega One Sinking Pellets. She is doing much better and can stay down in the bottom for extended time although she has to force herself to do so. But whenever she rests, she floats to the sufface corner of the tank.

Junky123, you will need to start your own thread that we may help you out and not confuse the 2 threads. Thanks.

Bobble is still gasping at surface after meals (sometimes she does this for a couple of hours after) and sometimes also becomes quite floaty (like her tail is pulling her to the surface). Her poo (well I think it is hers) is food coloured but has air bubbles and floats at the surface of the tank. Have also noticed twice this week a thin long white wispy thing attached to the plants (not sure if it is poo or slime, think it is poo). Anyway after reading the Fancy Goldfish book we decided to try adding salt to 0.3% as the book seems to suggest if anything is wrong salt will help most things, so we followed the instructions and added the salt over a 24 hr period beginning Monday night. Also as instructed in the book we did a large water change before adding the salt. I also tested the water both before and after each addition of salt. The numbers were (0, 0, 5-<10 closer to 5, 7.8-8 for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph respectively). I also bought test kits for KH (89.5) and GH (161.1).

This morning I just noticed my other fish Bubble has red (looks like blood) tinges at the ends of his tail (the two bottom lobes). He is still happy and active and begging me for food. Any ideas about this? [I immediately tested the water when I saw this and the numbers were the same as above, didn't test nitrate, KH or GH though].

What am I doing wrong?

Hmmm, the red could indicate along with the white stools, a bacterial infection.
Do you have medicated foods? If not, goldfishconnection online has 2 very nice ones. I would try that for a span of 2 weeks, see if it helps.

Hi LaurieP,

Thanks for your help. No I don't have medicated food (I don't think it is sold in Australia) and Goldfish Connection don't ship here (I wish they did!). Bubble has had in the past a red patch under his chin but it disappeared by itself in a couple of days, he also had a blood splotch on his tail once and we put in a tank by himself with some tri-sulfa, mostly as a precaution because we thought that time that Bobble had nibbled at his tail & it went away after about 5 days. I am not sure whether it was him or Bobble who did the white poo.

Is there anything else I can do for a bacterial infection?

Sorry Kat for some reason I thought you were here in the states.......

Let me see if Jen knows if there is a med food there.

If the Tri-sulfa worked before, you may want to try it again only longer this time.
Red splotches that come on the underside of the fish that reoccur can be a pretty bad internal bacterial infection. One of mine had it, twas nasty fighting it.

Hi Laurie, Please don't apologise, there's no reason you should know where I'm from (I should remember to say). I just appreciate that you, Jen and all the others take the time to read and help

I've just managed to get a few pics of his tail, hopefully the pics are clear enough to help.





Thanks again.

Hi Kat - it's a bummer we don't get any medicated food here no?

That looks like the red either associated with stress or the start of an infection and interestingly I have a fish that gets red streaks from salt because unfortunately she's salt sensitive (it also gives her finrot )

Do you have a vet you know? You can make an excellent medicated gel food using both metronidazole and tetracycline which helps when my guys have bacterial infection. If you're unable to get any, I could express post you a couple of metronidazole tablets Monday (thankfully my vet lets me buy them) and you can try whipping up some medicated food using both the Metro and Triple Sulfa tablets and keep it in the freezer.

In the meantime, I'd go with Laurie's suggestion and do another dose of the Trisulfa - and check for any improvement. Also if you can, post back if you can work out which one has the white stringy poop

PS. By the way, Bubble is a real cutie

Hi Jen, thanks for the reply.

Yes it is not good that we can't get the good stuff for our fish. Bubble thanks you for the compliment I guess it could be stress from the salt, maybe we should do a water change to start removing it (we were going to leave it in for a week)? I will see if I can get those things from the vet. Is Tri-sulfa or tetracycline better for bacterial things? I have started wondering if I am making things worse by treating them. I don't want to ignore something making them ill or something that could kill them but I also don't want to stress them and make things worse. That's why we tried salt rather than medicine as it seemed to say in the fancy goldfish book that salt helps without harming them. Maybe I should just remove the salt and leave them alone?

BTW the pictures of the 10 fish at the bottom of your post, the one that is 2nd from left on top row looks exactly like my Bobble, even the orange coming through in the same places!

Bobble's a blue oranda? Aren't they wonderful? My blue looks a fair bit different to the pic one in my sig - her face is looking like a little bulldog's now

I was thinking about your situation and asked myself "what would I do?" and to be honest, I would try slowly removing the salt first and see if this helps clear up the redness. Salt really is gentle on fish but every now and then, you'll come across one or two that just can't handle it. And if you find that Bubble's displaying more symptoms then it may be time to remedicate or hopefully, with just perfect water - it may clear up.

I made up the medicated food using tetracycline because it can destroy some bacteria and tetracycline is manufactured from oxytetracycline (or Doxycycline which is the new synthetic version) - it's just not as affective unfortunately. I think if you have triple sulfa and can get metronidazole, i'd try making up some food from this because triple sulfa is a good broad spectrum antibiotic and i would've used this if I had some in my cupboard

If you find your vet will help you, then you could try pushing the friendship and ask for a couple of Metronidazle tablets along with a couple Doxycycline tablets as this would make a medicated food that closely resembles Metromeds (which contains these 2 ingredients)

Hopefully Bubbles problem will be resolved with just perfect water but if you see more stringy white poop, it could be a bacterial infection at play...

Just trying to imagine a fish who looks like a bulldog

I often think my Bobble should be renamed "Oink" as she has the tendency to be a real piggy!

Well, sorry for the poo talk again, but I've seen each of them do a normal, short, food-coloured poo this afternoon, so not sure who was responsible for the other.

I'll keep a close watch tonight and if his tail is still like that in the morning or if his behaviour changes tonight then I'll move him to the little tank and give him some tri-sulfa. At the moment, each time I go near the tank, he acts like he is starving (even thought they only had dinner about 1.5 hours ago). I'll also see if I can find a vet who give me the meds.

BTW when you say, "slowly" remove the salt, what % water change would be classed as slow?

Thanks Jen.

Lol - oink is a great name

If they're both pooping well, it could've been a one off. If it's consistently white/stringy then this is a concern but if it's only every now and then, it could be nothing.

I'd go with a 40% waterchange to bring the salt level down to around 0.18 and then you could try another 40% waterchange 24hours later which will bring you down to around 0.1%. This level should tell if it's a reaction to the salt or not, plus it'll refresh the water nicely

I would give it more time before you medicate - unless you see some very real symptoms crop up but blood in the tips of the fins may point to stress, so it mightn't be necessary

And this is what I mean by bulldog

Too cute! She has much more wen than Bobble. Wow she is beautiful! I hope Bobble eventually grows a bigger wen like that.

Yes I think holding off on medicine is what I will do.

Just in case though, do you know what mg those drugs should be? Because if they are also human drugs then it would be much easier for me to ask my doctor friends than a vet. And with the medicated food, do you just put 1 or 2 tablets in that other recipe you gave me?

Thanks again Jen!

Katrina, I am glad Jen can help you with the food receipe. What a cute fish! Boy do I hope you can get her to a 100%, such a beauty she is.

Keep us posted.

The tablets are 200mg and when I make up medicated food, I blend up the food and measure out 350-400mls (before adding the gelatin) and adding to it the 2 tablets that are predissolved. And when I add gelatin to boiling water, because I dissolve the gelatin in only a little boiling water by the time I whisk it into the mix, the heat from the hot water dissipates quickly because you don't want meds coming in contact with boiling water

And if Bobble looked like Wilbur in the first pic (in my sig), then there's a good chance this is how she'll look in about 6-12 months

Update: I ended up taking Bobble to the vet. The vet anesthetised Bobble and did a gill clipping and found no parasites. He prescribed a Baytril bath for both Bobble and Bubble. He said to make a bath of 0.2ml Baytril per 1L of water and put the fish in it for 5 hours per day for 10 days. So we did.

Initial Result of treatment:
Bobble: The first 4 days we saw some improvement in Bobble, after meals she would gulp for a shorter period of time and so did not end floating for so long. However, from day 5 onwards, things were back to their usual poor state, she ate, gulped air for a few hours, then had difficulty swimming and floated for about half a day.
Bubble: Bubble's tail also appeared to have possibly split to the base and he may have developed fin rot. Bubble had become more active since we began treatment. He used to spend the day resting in a corner of tank except when we feed him when he would search for food. Since we started treating with the medicine he had been spending his days swimming around the tank and/or searching for food for most of the day.

Both fish also appeared to be very stressed as a result of the treatment.

Final result:
It has been a couple of weeks since the treatment ended, Bobble still gulps air for several hours after meals, and I think Bubble has fin rot. Bubble has returned to spending the day resting in the corner except for the several hours day where he searched devotedly for food. I think Bobble has been doing some white/clear thin stringy/fluffy poos too (also some normal ones). We have been feeding her mostly peas the past 2 weeks which initially helped a little (ie. still gulping air but less floaty) but is not helping anymore.

The vet has said he would like to see them again tomorrow. However, given we have taken them there twice now and it has not helped and the trip there stresses them out a lot, I am reluctant to take them. The vet is the only one around here I have found willing to see fish but his expertise is with birds rather than fish, although he has been emailing a colleague of his who is a fish vet. I have also asked the vet about medicated food, whether he can make some up or whether he will give me medicine to make it myself but he just says he wants to see them tomorrow.

Any ideas on what the vet might try next? I am worried about the stress it will cause Bubble given that he probably has fin rot, will it make it worse? Any ideas? Vet or not? Something I can try myself? Thanks for any advice.

[BTW, last water change was Thursday, Ammonia=0, Nitrite=0, Nitrate before water change was 10-20, currently it is <5, ph=7.8-8, kh=89.5, gh=161.1]

Hmmm, At first I was thinking that maybe the water cycle was bumped because of the Baytril, but that looks good.

Sorry to say at this point Kat nothing is coming to mind. Do keep us updated though. It is common for vet's to ask each other on things, especially if not in their area of expertise. It is nice you have one that is willing to see him.

Hi LaurieP, The cycle should not have been altered as we removed fish from main tank each day and treated with baytril in a bucket/basin. Then at the end of the 5hrs we diluted the water a lot before moving fish back to main tank. Yes it is very nice of the vet to consult with others and try to help my fish.

Vet suggests that Bobble may have a behavioural problem and that we should cover the surface with lots of plants etc to prevent her from gulping air.

Also said to treat the tank twice a week for 2 weeks with vitamin C to help healing their fins.

Has anyone here at Koko's ever used Vitamin C like this? If so, how did it go? Did it help the fish? Damage the cycle? What brand etc of Vitamin C did you use?

Thanks again!

Hi Katrina, did your vet mention how readily absorbed baytril is? When I spoke to my vet about injecting several months ago, I asked about using it as a backup in-water med and he told me not to bother. It's an antibiotic that's excellent against gram neg and pos bacteria but is most effective when injected intraperitoneally. IMHO I would still try to get some doxycycline and metronidazole and mix up a food. If you find he says no, then let me know and i can send you a couple of tablets which is enough to mix up between 150-200mls of food.

So he wants to see Bobble again? My question would be why? If he's already seen Bobble twice then what has he planned for a third visit? My biggest concern is what you mentioned and that's the level of stress involved in taking her - so the question is do you risk stressing her all over again? The only time I'd consider a third visit would be if he'd made a definitive diagnosis that called for 3 separate treatements otherwise I'd say no, I don't think it is worth it - especially as no great progress has been made. I used to hound my vet for answers especially when problems wouldn't clear using OTC products - until it got to the point where he surrendered to me his text on Aquarium Diseases from the foundation of Veterinary Science and explained that armed with this guide, a microscope and a readily available supply of antibiotics, I would be able to work it out myself.

If the finrot is still present and any redness remains then trying them both on medicated gel food may just be all they need. This combination has saved my fish on many occassions - especially where meds such as triple sulfa and tetracycline had no impact whatsoever.

And let me know if you want me to send you a couple of tablets - I can put them in an express post bag tomorrow

Just on the Vit C - I would only really consider injecting or feeding foods rich in V C although how was he suggesting you administer it?

Hi JenW. Your vet sounds cool! He said to buy just normal human vitamin C and add directly to the tank (he gave this concentration to use as well). I will ask him about the meds. Thanks!

While he's possibly the most arrogant, chauvinistic and obstinate man I've ever met - he's a fantastic vet who's been very good to me over the years. I'm fortunate as I think he likes me so i'm able to get the meds I need but I'd hate to be on his bad side

Anyhow, good luck tomorrow and let us know what happens

Katrina, I haven't heard of the Vit C either.....hmmm, it is interesting. Please let us know how it goes.

Hi JenW and LaurieP.

My vet has said he is happy to prescribe doxycycline and metronidazole for Bobble!

So now I've just got to master making it (I am a pretty bad cook!). So a few questions:

*The ingredients you mentioned, do I need to cook things like the peas, brocolli, chickpeas etc first, prior to blending?
* The pet vitamins you mention, do you know the brand name or what they contain? Are they tablets or powder?
* Are there any additives/preservatives etc in the salmon, gelatin etc that I need to avoid when I choosing among different brands?
*Do I still freeze it, is that bad for the medicine?
* How much food do I feed each fish? Is it dangerous to feed them too much?
*How long should I feed it to them for? Should I feed them their normal food as well or just the medicated food?
*Will the medicated food hurt the tank's cycle?

Sorry for all the questions but I really don't want to hurt my fish or harm the tank cycle.

Thanks for your help and patience.

Hi Katrina - that's great news

As your guys are floaters, we won't use chick peas in this recipe. I found out the hard way that they also cause floating problems by trapping gas in the intestine.

So my most recent batch which caused no floating issues was made up of:

- peas
- beans
- spinach
- zucchini
- tuna (in springwater) x 2 small cans
- crushed garlic
- and the vitamins I use are Vetbasix Malt Flavoured Multivitamin Paste so you can squeeze half a teaspoon out into 200mls of food

These vitamins contain:

A
D
C
E
B1
B2
B6
B12
Pantothenic Acid
Folic Acid
Biotin

Just on preparation of the veggies, I basically used frozen peas, beans and spinach so I just defrosted them before blending but I did blanch the zucchini to soften it up some.

Then the whole lot went into the blender along with the meds and then into a bowl so I could mix in the gelatin.

The only thing I will add is that I used a fair bit more gelatin (double) then the recommended amount so it would set solid. You can still crush the cubes between your fingers but the objective was to make sure it didn't disintegrate in the tank - especially as I wanted the meds to stay within the food. The first lot I ever made basically dissolved once it hit the water so was a total waste - also, if you make the food so it's nice and solid, it won't touch your cycle

Hi Jen,

Thanks for your speedy reply. With the veges, same quantities you mentioned in the earlier recipe? Hopefully I can get the meds from the vet in the next couple of days and make this for them.

How long do you feed it to them for? And do you set it (& store it) in the fridge or freezer?

Thanks again.

Geez I'm a ninny - I was going to answer the rest of your questions until I got a call from Security to say the alarm at work was going off so I had to drop everything and dash into town

*The ingredients you mentioned, do I need to cook things like the peas, brocolli, chickpeas etc first, prior to blending?

See above

* The pet vitamins you mention, do you know the brand name or what they contain? Are they tablets or powder?

See above

* Are there any additives/preservatives etc in the salmon, gelatin etc that I need to avoid when I choosing among different brands?

I'd go with plain tuna in spring water. I even add some of the spring water into the blender for extra flavour

*Do I still freeze it, is that bad for the medicine?

According to my vet you can freeze it safely for up to 6 months (or a bit longer). It's hot water that destroys the efficacy of antibactetrial meds

*How much food do I feed each fish? Is it dangerous to feed them too much?

Once set, I would cut the gel food into small cubes and as this food contains no starch etc. I feed about 3 cubes to a medium sized fish. I calculated it on how much they could eat in 5 minutes

*How long should I feed it to them for? Should I feed them their normal food as well or just the medicated food?

I feed for at least 14 days which my vet once told me was enough time to resolve any infection plus reduce the chance of recurrence. And no, feed this food exclusively twice a day

Will the medicated food hurt the tank's cycle?

Not if you can get it to set hard so the meds don't disperse in the water

Hi JenW,

Thanks again for your help. My vet wants me to just try doxycycline first. What dose rate do you use of this for your goldfish?

I forgot to say that the vet gave me liquid doxycycline 50mg/ml. I have read one thing that says use 0.15ml per 75g of food and another that says 7.5ml per 75g of food, since they are quite different I was wondering what you used with your fish and their medicated food?

Thanks again

I used the 50mg tablets and because I mixed with 200 mg metronidazole - I dosed at:

200mg - Metronidazole
100mg - Doxycycline

= 200mls of wet food

According to my "Aquarium Diseases in Fresh Water Fish" text (Post Grad Foundation in Veterinary Science) - the dosage rate is:

50-75mg/kg fish per day for 10-15 days

If I had to try and work this out then i'd base it on the dosage of 75mg/kg and the example I calculated was: if a fish weighs just on 9 ounces/0.25kg - then the total meds needed would be 18.75mg per day (with 1kg = 35.273 ounces) x 10 days (shorter treatment duration) = 187.50mg for the duration of treatment. This dosage doesn't help calculate how much wet feed needs to be made for a 10 day treatment though which is why I got my vet to work out the med/food ratio

I've never used the liquid before but if you're only going to mix the one, then I'd go with the 7.5ml per 75g of food...