Hi guys! Well my fishies are in for a treat. We are going to set up the empty 90 gallon tank that we used to have saltwater guys in for the big goldies. The 55 gallon inhabitants are now moving into the big tank and the babies in the 40 gallon are going into the 55. They will be so happy! My question is, what would you guys do for the 90 gallon? What kind of filtration and how big for the 900 gph, as well as possibly a UV sterilizer? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Since I am not breaking down the 55 gallon I need all new stuff. I really like filter media because then I can have an almost instanly cycled tank (or at least a shortend cycle) by moving existing media from one tank to the other. Right now I have lava rocks in the media baskets of all the filters. Any recommendations would be great!
PS- I have no experience with UV sterilizers and don't kow if they are worth it...any personal experience would be great! Thanks

No one on this forum has any suggestions about filters or UV sterilizers? Someone? Thanks

Hi, sorry no one replied to your question! I did not see it untilnow. I have an 85 gal tank with goldfish and this is what I'm running on it right now.

Two Emperior 400's ,and one Rena xP3! Makes for very nice filtration on this size tank.

Ihave a 25 watt UV sterilizer from Goldfishconnection and of course a pump and airstones. And a Coralife light strip.

I have it barebottom, with a piece of driftwood and a terra cotta pot.

Hope this helps.

3 aquaclear110*1500gph)!!!, a Uv light(kill bacterials and algae) PowerHead.Air pump.

I LOVE sump tanks and wet/dry filters. If you have adequate room underneath the tank you might consider one of the Pro Clear wet/dry filters. I think you could probably go as large as the Pro Clear 250 with a 90 gallon tank. When I had my 90 set up [it's a sump for 180 gallon, now] I used a Pro Clear 125 and thought it was too small. Wet dry filters [trickle filters] are biological powerhouses. They require little maintenance other than cleaning the prefilter sponge every 3 days and the filter pad in the drip tray from time to time.

For mechanical filtration, I have had good luck with Aquaclear filters. On my 90, I had the Pro Clear wet/dry described above and 2 - Aquaclear 110's. They are the only hang-on type, "open" filter I like at all and I love them.

I also love the Rena canister filters. So easy to operate and they are wonderful mechanical filters. I've never tried the Eheim canister filters that are very popular in this forum. I like the rena filters, immensely better than Magnum filters, though. Much more simple to clean and fewer mechanical problems.

Oh! And go bare-bottom. Whatever mechanical filters you use, extend the uptakes with flexible tubing/hose cut to a length so that part of it is laying on the floor. You'll really appreciate not having to vaccum!

Thanks guys! The tank is currently set up as a salt water so there is a sump tank, protein skimmer, etc under it. I just assumed that the water flow would be too much for the goldies. Is it better to leave it set up with the salt water filters and output or change it for the goldies? Thanks again!

Christan

I have gathered that many folks in this forum do not use the more technical equipment for their goldies because it is not conventional. However, I know that everything you are using right now for your marine aquarium would be *wonderful* on a freshwater aquarium with the possible exception of a protein skimmer. Wet/dry filters are hard to beat for biofiltration. And the biggest issue with keeping Goldies is maintaining favorable parameters... just like with marine fish. The one big difference is Goldies are not AS sensitive to nitrATES as many marine critters.

One cool thing I am about do for my Goldfish is turn a sump that is currently just being used as a reservoir/aeration chamber, into a "modified" [i.e. freshwater] refugium. I am researching which freshwater aquarium plants are best for removing nitrates, are the most hardy, etc. My Golfdish eating them won't be an issue as they will never be in direct contact with them.

I believe that combining some of the technology used by marine aquarium enthusiasts with the practicality of Goldfish enthusiasts can really benefit the fish! By the way, I don't blame you for changing from one to the other. Goldfish are challenging enough to be interesting but not nearly as frustrating as marine fish. And they are equally or more beautiful.

Best of luck.

wow good luck

can u get a pic

Christan,

And this is where the practicality of Goldfish keeping comes in. This forum and most others recommend the 10X rule. That is, the wtar should be passed through the filtration system 10X per hour. I dunno' what the output was on your 90 gallon marine aquarium, but prolly' not more than 10X. Some modifications may need to be made to keep from swooshing your Goldies around depending on what you have [I have large, elongated fish who play in the water stream]. But for the most part if your "output" is directed so it will keep the top of the water moving this will help with aearation/gaseous exchange which is a must. Goldfish are middle-of-the-tank swimmers and bottom foragers. Coming to the top is really not all that natural an act for them. So more turbid water at the top is not going to bother them. Some folks use plants to break up the flow, somewhat. But whatever you do regarding the output flow, there is a pretty tight recommendation for 10X filtration. You may need to experiement to see what's best with your equipment and for the fish you put in the 90 gallon.

Wow! Thanks for the info! My boyfriend is into the saltwater tanks but recently discovered seahorses and has opted to keep them in a 48 gal bowfront....so that left the 90 gallon empty. We were going to sell it. At first everyone at the local saltwater fish store thought it was silly I had goldfish, like a waste of tank space. But after taking care of them for me this summer while I was gone they think they are like puppy-dogs. I have 5-7 inch fancies, some show fish right now. I can't wait to put them in the 90 gallon. I have been wondering if the saltwater set up would be better for them but assumed there was a reason I shouldn't as no one seems to do it. Thanks for the info. I will have my boyfriend read all this as he knows the salt water set-up well. Anything you can tell me would be great. Thanks!

Christan,

I thought I replied to your last post and it must have wound up in cyberspace or I accidentally deleted it when I went to answer an IM.

Hey! Way cool that you are going to convert your old saltwater equipment for your Goldies. Way cool, too, that you started with show quality fish. One bit of advice - just because you are going to have a filtration system that rocks, doesn't mean it's OK to go above the prescribed number of Goldies for the size of the tank. I've seen African Cichlid keepers go bonkers after they started using wet/dry systems on their tanks. ll primo filtration just means the prescribed number of Goldies gets to breathe better. Not that there gets to be a "fog" of Goldies in the tank. But you know that. That's for the benfit of anyone reading who doesn't...

Glad your fella' is saltwater savvy. That is going to help, big time. Those guys really know about water maintenance. I never was heavily into saltwater aquariums though I have had them. Know lots of people who are and even my custom tanks were built by folks who almost always do saltwater systems. By the way, I have not run into a lot of prejudice because I am into Goldfish. I think [hope] you'll find that the marine enthusiasts you've dealt with are going to look at things with less "blind eyes" when they realize you are buying/using the same equipment that they do. The folks I run into are more curious than anything about *how* I am applying their techniques to a freshwater system. Helps them sell more equipment, if you think about it...

I was heavily into Rift Valley Cichlids but used a lot of marine aquarium technology with my Africans, right down to the substrate. I think African Cichlid culture is maybe a little more easy than Goldfish culture because of the amount of waste produced by dense-bodied Goldfish. But I am hooked. Goldfish *last* if properly cared for and to me, there is no better return for the effort than fish that can live for ten-twenty plus years if properly cared for.

By the way, I have converted my 90 gallon, "reservoir" sump as of today! It is now somewhere between a mud sump and a "bog filter" in that it is heavily planted. No mud, thank you. I used pond baskets filled with marbles to anchor ten, good sized clumps of anacharis. The baskets are easily moved if need be and ancharis doesn't need a dirt substrate. The marbles make the bleh looking baskets almost attractive, too. And I am going to add a basket or two of something different for variety. I am using a triple tube strip light with a Marine Glo and two, Life Glo tubes to light the sump. Only bummer is that since the sump does not have independant filtration [yet?], I am going to have to vaccum shedding leaves from the bottom when I do my routine maintenance. Before, the sponge pre-filters on the overflow kept the reserve water in the sump, free of any debris. Hopefully, will be worth any extra effort. Cool thing is, my fish now have the benefits of a planted aquarium... and cannot kill or uproot the plants. They'll have to settle for their salad.

Keep me posted on your set up! I am excited for you.

Thanks for all the info! I have a 55 gallon that has been up for a few years now and I am not planning on getting a million more for the 90 gallon. I want them to get even bigger!!! The little guys from the 40 gallon are going into the 55 and their tank will be used for the sump tank. My hubby has read your posts and he is asking me how you keep the water from flowing back into the sump tank if the power goes out (we have had this happen!) and if you have a check valve how is it set up? Also, what do you use to pump the water from the main tank into the sump? His salt water tank works off gravity. Thanks so much,

Christan

CometKeeper - I am interested in replacing my 40 gallong "stretch-hex" in my living room with a 92 gallon corner tank. My 40 holds a full grown ryukin and a baby (six inch) butterfly koi. I'm thinking about putting in a wet/dry system, such as the ProClear. I don't have any experience with sump systems and am wondering how loud one of these systems will be given the living room setting. All-Glass makes the 92 gallon corner tank with a built in overflow system which would be a very neat installation.

Also, I would love to hear from anyone who owns the 92 gallong corner tank. My question is does the large bowfront cause optical distortion of the fish and tank contents? Is this a problem?

Thanks,
Dennis

Hi Dennis,

We had the 90 gallon set up as a saltwater tank with sump until we decided to change it to a goldy tank. It is sitting in our living room. The sump tank is louder than the conventional system, but not unbearable. We can still watch TV, etc. We had it in the bedrrom for a little while but that was too noisy! I really couldn't sleep with that noise. But I think in the livingroom you will be fine.

Christan

Dennis, the built in overflow is going to be more quiet than the one that usually comes with the Pro Clear wet/dry. Really though, by the time you use a return pump and with the 10X filtration, a larger Goldfish aquarium is not going to be too quiet. My little girl has a 32 Oceanic Cube with a single, Aquaclear 110 and it makes NO noise. My big tank/sump sounds like a waterfall, but I like it.

The 92 corner tank sounds groovy but be sure to go with a larger Pro Clear than what is prescribed for your aquarium volume. I used a Pro Clear 125 on a 90 gallon and felt like I could have gone with maybe a 250 or even a 350. It's a good idea to use the largest sump possible for added water volume and for safety in the event of a power failure. In comparsion to other wet/dry filters, the Pro Clears utilize a lot of bioballs which equates to more biofiltration. But you have to make sure the water level in the sump is below the bioball chamber. The system works much better if they are not submersed but the water just drips over them. Therefore, the water in the Pro Clear sump is rather shallow compared to systems with smaller bioball chambers. A plus though - since the sump itself is quite deep and has a large *potential* volume, it is going to *greatly* decrease the risk of an overflow in the event of a power outtage. In using a sump system, ideally one wants a surface area on the sump to be as close to the surface area of the aquarium as practical. If your sump has say, half the surface area of the aquarium, in the event of a power failure when water is still being pumped OUT of the aquarium and into the sump via siphon/gravity... and no water is being pumped out of the sump because the elctric pump is down, then in this particular sump [1/2 the surface area of aquarium] the water level would *rise* by TWO inches for every inch the aqaurium level drops. Because most overflows will allow the aquarium to drop at least two inches in a power failure, one must plan for the sump water level to rise, accordingly... A Pro Clear sump is usually deep enough to contain the extra volume that would result in the event of a power failure. Again that is, if you buy as large a Pro Clear system as practicality allows. The bigger, the better on all counts.

Hi Christan! My 180 gallon tank has TWO sumps at present - considering a third. One is a Pro Clear 350 Wet/Dry filter. The other is the 90 gallon reservoir/refugium hybrid I described earlier. I use over flow boxes for both of them - the removable kind that hangs on the tank, consisting of a skimmer box hanging inside, attached to an overflow box hanging outside and with a siphon delivering water from the skimmer box to the overflow box. There is a slotted pipe in each of the overflow boxes that is covered with a foam prefilter. Water falls from the overflow boxes into both sumps by gravity - no pumps. If the power goes out, the water definitely flows into the sump tanks. Not a big issue on the Pro Clear wet/dry because it has a large sump tank where the water level is kept LOW to stay below the bioball chamber. In other words, there is a lot of room for the water to rise in a power failure. On the reservoir/refugium sump, I do not fill it all the way to the top when in operation. I fill it with about 75 gallons of water, leaving maybe 4-5" at the top for the water to rise in a power outtage. In that 90 gallon reservoir/refugium, I have a five gallon aquarium standing on its end on one end. On top of that, sits the return pump. If the water in the sump drops below that level [say if the pump goes out on the Wet/Dry filter and that sump rises, then the pump in the reservoir stops pumping, obviously... so the Wet/Dry sump is not going to overflow]. Now to prevent a huge overflow of water into the sumps in the event of a total power outtage I count on two things: the slots on the skimmer boxes will only allow the water level in the aquarium to drop by 1.5-2" before it is physically impossible for anymore water to flow out. On the return hoses from both sumps, a hole is drilled near the top of the outlet tube and this is above the aquarium water level. That little hole prevent back-siphoning through the return hose into the sumps in the event of a power failure. The main thing to remember... have large surface areas in your sumps. And do not overfill your sumps. If your sump has only a fourth the surface area of the aquarium [for example] and the aquarium water level drops 1.5-2 inches as it will in the power outtage, in this particular sump [1/4 the surface area of the aquarium] the water level will rise by 6-8 inches... So plan accordingly and adjust the sump water level accordingly during operation. Again, the amount the water in the aquarium will drop is limited by those slots on the skimmer boxes and the little holes at the top of the return tubes. Whether or not the sump will overflow is determined by the size of the sump, the surface area of the sump in comparison to the surface area of the aquarium... and how full you had it before the power failure. I hope that makes sense and doesn't seem like rambling.

Cometkeeper - You make some excellent points. Actually, the sump concept is fairly straightforward, once you can SEE it in operation. That's hard to do without an explanation, which is noticeably absent on manufacturer websites (including All Glass with their overflow). I take your point about the relative surface area sump vs. tank, so I guess that the "rating" of the sump systems really depends on the size of the pump that you install in the sump (flow rate, head).

I will go around to a few lfs's to listen to a few of these tanks in operation to make a judgement about the noise. I'd like to say that I will start with a cannister/hob combination and then upgrade to the sump if the former has trouble keeping up with the ammonia load. Since I will be ordering the 92 gallon tank and the "overflow" option includes two holes drilled in the tank bottom, I think that I need to decide before taking the plunge.

Oh, I'm also thinking "pond" for next summer. My butterfly koi (sweet pea) may well outgrow the 92 by spring. After losing two fancies to SBD (hearbreaking), I'm moving over to long-bodied fish, which have a charm all their own, as well as admirable swimming capabilities. I'm really taken with the wakins, but will wait on that till next summer.

Thanks for the good info.

Dennis

Dennis, we have lots in common. I like the fancies but get my "fix" from taking care of my daughter's two. The long-bodied, more sturdy fish are my cup of tea. In fact, I just can't "see" anything else. Nothing comes remotely close to being as apealling to me as Wakins and Commons - all freshwater and saltwater fish included, beyond Goldfish. Along with them and their size comes the need to be creative in duplicating the kind of water quality they would get in a pond if one wants to keep them in an aquarium to enjoy from all angles. It's a no-brainer that they are not going to get the amount of space they would get in a pond. But the water parameters and *enough* space are do-able for a very select, few fish. My aquarium set-up has a larger water volume than most pre-fab. ponds. I just love these long-bodied "pond fish" fish and would rather be as unconventional as it takes to keep them healthy in an aquarium environment, than to not have them or not do right by them.

And I can't wait to have that pond! I went to Shogun Japanese Steakhouse in Memphis last nigth and looked at their very nice, well kept pond. They have used a similar type of stone that we have in our landscaping and I got some good ideas. There is also a pond supplies/fish/garden center in Olive Branch, MS [Memphis suburb], that I have spent some time at. The people are extremely helpful. It's a big operation and they actually have eight different ponds set up to give folks ideas of the different ways it can be done. Ponding is BIG in this neck of the woods. Also cool that the Koi Vet. from internet and seminar fame, if I am correct, is in Nashville. I know he does lots of local seminars for ponders. I'm really stoked to get started.

Now back to the aquarium. Don't buy the pre-drilled tank. Save yourself some $$$ and go with the traditional tank for now. You don't have to have a drilled tank to upgrade to a wet/dry sump system later. The hang on overflow boxes are grrrreat. And if that type of filtration ever doesn't work for you, you can take it off. Very tough to plug up holes - especially ones you paid extra for. You'll be able to keep the nitrogen in check by doing the things typically recommended here and some of the other forums - keep the numbers low, just as you would if you were stocking a delicate marine aquarium. IMHO and there wil be arguments, that equates to a COUPLE [max.] of the long-bodied varieties in a 90 gallon aquarium and that's with a lot of tank-keeping vigilence. These fish are cool enough that a couple is all it will take to keep you entertained. Use the 10X filtration rule, Do frequent water changes. Watch the parameters. Don't overfeed... You know the drill.

Best of luck to you.

Hey Cometkeeper,

We are going to the fish store tomorrow to pick up the equipment for the tank!!! We are going to use the 40 gallon tank as the sump for the 90 gallon with the set up you described. Not ready for a planted sump yet, just the basic for now. I don't know what the Proclear wet/dry loooks like but I will ask tomorrow (I am lucky that our good friends own the fish store so we get everything for wholesale). Thanks for all the info. I have a question about cycling the tank for you though.....
When I set up our second tank I put the new canister filter on the established tank for a while as well as transfered the lava rock media out of one of the established filters into the new filter on the new tank. I also tranfered the water. This basically made an instantly established second tank. However, the established tank was a 55 gallon and the new tank was 40 gallons...so there was enough ben bac. Now that I am going to a bigger tank I am worried about the tank cycle. I will have the filter media from the filters on the 40 gallon to tranfer to the 90 gallon sump, as well as the water from the 40 gallon. Any suggestions? Thanks again,

Christan

Christan,

Hey, that's awesome RE: your using a sump for extra volume for your Goldies. They'll only benefit.

OK, the deal with cycling the 90 gallon tank is that it will *help* that you are introducing all the ben bac from your old filter but what I have found is that when you seriously up the water volume of a system [which in effect, you will be doing] there will be a "modified cycle". It seems to me that bacteria responsible for converting ammonia to nitrite seem to "kick it in gear" well before the bacteria for converting nitrite to nitrate. In other words, even though you may not see an ammonia spike or see only a very brief ammonia spike because you introduced ben bac from another tank, you will probably see a big nitrite spike soon after the tank is set up. Test like a fiend for the first few weeks - I mean, morning and night. Goldfish [my long-bodied ones, anyway] seem fairly tolerant of ammonia but nitrite is some scary stuff. Be prepared for those 50% water changes daily for awhile... and I would NEVER let the nitrite level get to 2.0 before I do a big water change. In my experience, it is best to dilute the nitrite by a series of 50% water changes than it is to bind the nitrite. And likewise, be careful of doing MORE than a 50% water change at a time! In order for there to be nitrite to nitrate conversion [i.e for the responsible bacteria to flourish and multiply], there HAS to be some nitrite in the water during this phase. It's a real balancing act for awhile because it takes very little nitrite to really stress Goldfish so our obvious first reaction is get it all outta' there. By the same token, be leary of binders like Prime for reducing nitrite. That's for the L A Z Y <wink> and is counterproductive. Sure, it will bind the nitrite briefly, but in doing so [at the up to 5X usual dosage recommended on the bottle] it also interrupts your cycle by halting the conversion of nitrite to nitrate... the critters responsible for that step literally starve to death and the nitrite is going to shoot right back up, prolonging the stress to your fish.

Keep me posted!

Whew...changing 50 percent of 130 gallons every few days is a lot!!! What about this idea:

I put a bunch of lava rock in the existing tank for a week or so, then move it to the 90 gallon that is set up but empty. Will this help? There will be a larger amount of filter media that has ben bac on it (after a week or so there should be right?) and I don't have to dismantle either one of the tanks until the 90 gallon is ready. How long will that take? Does the 90 gallon need any fish in it to cycle? If so I can put 2 of my hardy ones in there. Where is the best place to store the lava rock to get the ben bac to grow quickly? Thanks for all the help,

Christan

Remember that a 90 gallon tank is a considerable volume, so if you add one or two (smallish) fish to it, any ammonia released by the fish (or nitrite after conversion) will be dliluted by 90 gallons of water. With a small fish load, the concentration of ammonia or nitrite will take a while to build up (monitor this). In the meantime, if you have "seeded" the new tank with media, gravel, plants, etc. from the old tank, establishing a nitrifying bacterial population will be speeded up. Hopefully, with the slow build up of ammonia and nitrite, and the dilution available from the 90 gallons, and the seeded tank, you won't have a big issue.

And yes, you do need a source of ammonia (fish) to start the cycle. Keep tabs on the ammonia and nitrite and just change water as necessary to control (or per normal practice - i.e., 25% per week).

Adventures in water chemistry!

Dennis

Dennis,

Yup, my thinking exactly. The best way to appraoch this is for Christan to go on as planned with transplanting ben bac from old system to new... and adding A fish to the new system for the balance fo the cycle. No suggestions though, what kind of fish, cause it usually one omy buddies, the Common that gets elected to that kind of duty Christan has Fancies that are probably too expensive to be practical "cycling fish". Just kidding. Maybe she could enlist a small Common for the cycling with a reward being going to a freind's pond afterwards...

Christan,

Anyway, once the tank is completely cycled with one fish, you could replace that fish with one of your "keepers" . Keep tabs on params to make sure the new fish does not kick the system into a second cycle. Then add a second fish. Test parameters. And so on until all of the valuable fish have been transferred one by one.

HI guys!!!

I have a few more questions for you that I have come up with while setting up the tank. Here goes.

What lights should I use on the 90 gallon?

Is lava rock an appropriate media to use in the sump tank? Should I use another kind as well? How much?

The tank was set up as a salt water, so the intake box is in the top right corner and I am planning to only use the sump, not a hang on back filter. Is this OK? Since I am going bare bottom, how do I get the stuff off the bottom? Do I need both the sump plus an Eheim filter?


Thanks!

Christan

Christan - As to the lights, I really like compact fluorescent lights as they provide sufficient intensity to grow plants well if you want. Normal fluorescents will work well also. With compacts you can get much higher wattage, which helps to penetrate the depth of a 90 gallon tank.

Regarding the filters, I have no experience with sump type filters, but these can be sized to handle a 90 gallon tank with no difficulty. If you get a higher capacity return pump, you increase the flow through the system. However, I still like a hang on back filter (in addition to the sump) for mechanical filtration tasks, particularly in the case of a bare bottom. Your sump system probably uses a surface overflow. With a hang on filter, or cannister, you can use long intake tubes which will suck junk off of the bottom. The surface overflow won't do as good a job of removing the suspended bits at the mid and bottom levels of the tank.

A cheap HOB filter would be a good supplement to the sump.

Dennis

Christan,

First, I want to back tread and say that I am doing what I recommedned not do and that is use Prime through the cycling phase. I had a weird, cycle crash about 3 weeks ago and was "re-cycling" using just water changes to dilute Nitrites. Changing tons of water. Anyway, I am now using prime and letting the Nitrite reading on my API kit climb a little bit to encourage the nitrobacter colony to flourish, again. But that is an aside.

I agree that the compact light is a good way to go. I currently have two, triple tube strips on my big tank, but wouldn't mind changing to compact strips. Dependingon what you want to grow in your tank besides fish will determine what bulbs to buy. Are you going to plant your tank?

As for keeping the bare bottom clean, in addition to my sump filter and wet/dry filter, I have three Rena Filstar XP4's with the uptake tubes extended to the bottom of the tank to keep the bottom clean. I also have a couple of Rio powerhead/submersible pumps to aearate and stir up the bottom.

In my sump tank, I am using UG plates with reverse flow from two powerheads, each with an airpump attached so a jet of air bubbles is pushed up wthrough my substrate which is clear glass marbles. I am planning to put Bio-Bal on top of the marbles. I've heard good and bad things about lava rock. I think they are Ok for Goldies, not so good for Koi. A friend who is a major Koi breeder in the area told me he removed all lava rock from his systems and his fish are much healthier for it. Another idea for relatively inexpensive biomedia is pvc pipe cut into various sized rings. I have been tempted to use pieces of broken concrete block! Lots of things can beused. But I am going to go with the Bio-Bale, ASAP. I took the plants out of the sump because the ones I chose were messy. Amd going to put some potted sword plants in the big tank in the future.