ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 20, pH 7.2, tap pH 7.0

Tank is 29G and its been running for about 8 months. Emperor filter, 280GPH. 30% water changes weekly. 2 goldfish about 3.5"

At each water change I add to the new water: prime, 1.5 tablespoons of aquarium salt and 1/4 teaspoon baking soda. The salt and baking soda I started adding a few weeks ago (I had a pH crash and a seemingly unrelated fish death around that time).

I've been feeding pre-soaked Hikari gold (it still floats, though when I add it). and also frozen peas once a week and occasionally tubifex worms or an orange slice (once every few weeks).

The problem is that Blue (my ryukin) is spending a lot of time just sitting in a bottom corner of the tank. She still has the ability to swim, but doesn't do much and when she does she always goes back to the corner. She is still eating, but I'm not sure if it is as much. Overall, she basically just seems a little lethargic. This has been going on for some time now (maybe a month). She has a bent dorsal fin that has more or less looked clamped since I bought her, so I don't know it might be a little worse than usual, maybe my imagination. A few months ago she had what appeared to be a swim bladder problem that was solved with a couple days of fasting and some peas.

She looks normal and when she does swim shee seems ok. No flashing that I've seen. But I am nervous because I recently had another goldie die who I thought was totally healthy.

So I don't know what the problem is. I don't want to medicate unless there is good reason too for fear of causing a problem, but I don't want to do nothing and have her turn up dead, either.

Hmmm, a good question. I would too be torn in your situation. No water issues that we are aware of, but how long ago since the ph crash?

Also have you ever treated her for parasites?

I think what I would do in your given situation is fast her 2-3 days. Then follow with peas for 3 days. Of course saying that she doesn't take a turn of being more ill in those days.

I also think I would salt the tank to a 0.3% concentration. And now as I think back you are doing that yes?
So my next thought is to treat her for potential parasites, with Parasite Clear from Jungle Labs. It is a pretty safe drug so if there aren't then no biggie.

Other thoughts I had are internal parasites, which you can try to correct with a parasite food.

Hmmm, again a real poser. I hope you figure out what could be going on. Maybe someone else has some thoughts.

Hi there! I thought I would chime in since I am having the same issue with one of my fish. He spends time bottom sitting but apart from that looks and eats fine. My water is also fine.

Since I bought him several months ago, I have had several issues with the fish including parasites, a bacterial infection, and sbd (which I still have on again/off again issues with). I have treated with a variety of things including parasite clear, marcyn2, medigold, metromed and also did the fasting/pea/epsom salt treatment. I believe that these meds cleared up the parasites (no more flashing, yawning) and bacterial (no more red patch) problems I was having. Throughout all this the fish never showed signs of bottom sitting - he was a real trooper! Then when all was well (or so I thought), about a month after all the meds have been out of the water, he starts this bottom sitting thing. I thought about parasites, etc but the symptoms aren't the same as what I saw before so I am hesitant to treat again. I thought about the sbd but that usually leaves him floating on the top of the water and goes away after a night of fasting. I am really not sure what it is but am just watching him closely to try to figure it out.

A few questions for you:
1) For how long does yours bottom sit - 50% of the day 20%? 80%?
2) Does it correlate with timing after eating, water changes, or day/night cycle?
3) Are his poops normal?
4) How is your other fish doing?

I hope there is nothing seriously wrong and you (we ) can figure this out.

--sea

Thanks for the advice. Salt currently at 0.1% but I will up to 0.3% over the next couple of days. I will do the fasting and peas things, too. Should I do the Jungle labs stuff right away, or wait to see if the fasting/peas work?

To answer the other questions: about 60-70% of the daytime she is on the bottom of the tank. In the evening she seems a little more active. Not sure about during the night.

I have not noticed a correlation to anything, but I have noticed that if she is already sitting on the bottom of the tank, she is slow to come out to get food (she used to swim right to it).

I've been watching for poops on and off but haven't caught her in the act. She doesn't seem to have any problems with the poop trailing or floating or anything.

The other fish in the tank appears 100% normal. Normal swimming, normal eating, normal color and no bottom sitting.

By the way- I think the pH crash was after I first noticed this problem- by about a week. I couldn't swear to it though.

With the ph crash so close it could be left over symptoms from that as well. So monitoring the ph very very closely to avoid any fluctuations is best.

Keep monitoring her, journal if you can. Often one day rides into the next without much to seperate them and it is important to know exact things.

I would hold off on the meds for a bit longer. See if you can get her feeling well with a fast and the salt along with stable water.

Poor baby, hang in there.

I've started keeping tabs and so far water chemistry seems stable at 0 ammonia and nitrites, nitrates now under 20, and pH 7.2 I will proceed testing daily for the time being.

She seems more active today than yesterday, but still sitting in the bottom a lot. Always in the same corner, too.

The salt is at 0.2% now and I will up it to 0.3% tonight. How long should I keep the salt at this concentration? Until she gets better or for some time after that? Is there a limit to how long fish can handle salt in the water?

As long as you don't go over the 0.3% concentration a fish can live in that. I however only run salt when problems are present.
So if it were I, about 2 weeks I would do. See if that helps.

Good to hear she is moving a bit more today. Have you started the fast?

Hopefully this is just "left over" from the crash and given some time and perfect water she'll bounce right back.

Yes I started the fast today- no food since last night. I may have spoke to soon on her swimming. It seemed better this morning but the last few hours she's been doing the bottom sitting thing again.

I'll keep up w/ the fast, salt and water changes and keep you posted on any change.

Sounds good, I will keep positive thoughts going your way.

OK, alarm bells are starting to go off in my head. There seems to be no improvement with Blue yet and now my other fish, Friend is starting to seem lethargic and do some bottom sitting, too. Could this be due to the fast and/or salt? Or maybe Friend is getting sick too. I've bought the Jungle Labs meds and am strongly considering using it tonight...I don't really know what to do at this point.

Im keeping up with the water changes and salt. I've managed to keep the pH steady at 7.2 and nitrates are down to 5ppm.

I think I am going to add the meds and go to bed. Normally I'd wait for advice before doing this, but my neighbors decided to throw a wild party tonight and I can barely think straight in the room where the computer is, which is also where the fish tank is. I need to get out of here before I go crazy. Poor fish are sick I hope the party noise doesn't irritate them more, but no real way to move them.

Forgot to mention this, but friend also has a few white dots on his head- sort of between the eyes and the gills. I'm no expert so I don't know what it is. It sounds like what I've heard described as tubercles, but since the fish are having problems, I'm guessing it could be something more sinister? I'll try to get pics up tomorrow.

Well I guess I panicked last not and I'm still not sure I should've medicated but both fish survived the night, so I guess it's so far so good.

Blue seems better this morning. Oddly, friend who started off as the healthier one, seems a little out of it. Both are swimming though. There has been less bottom sitting so far but I won't really know if this means anything until this afternoon and this evening, that is when they tend to be worse.

I would've started the meds too. It does sound like breeding tubrecules. Just watch them and see if they change.

Might be a good idea to post the other params as well. When treating with any medication testing daily is recommended. PC doesn't mess with the cycle, but if the fish produce more waste than normal then we need to know about it. Hang in there, it takes time.

Update: At the time I added the meds, ammonia and nitrites were 0, pH 7.2 and nitrates 5ppm.
Earlier tonight I gave them peas, after approx. 72 hours of fasting. They both ate well. I retested and ammonia and nitrites are at 0, pH has gone up and is somewhere between 7.2 and 7.6 (could this be due to the meds?); Nitrates are between 5 and 10 ppm.
They seem to be doing better than this morning, I think feeding them perked them up a little.
They are still doing some bottom sitting and I noticed something weird. Blue always sits in the same corner of the tank. When friend started having problems, he started going to the same corner. Now the corner is almost always occupied, sometimes by one or the other, sometimes by both. Not sure if it's important but I didn't want to overlook anything.

By the way, here is a picture of friend where you can kind of see the spots I was talking about. They haven't really changed since I noticed them.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g54/ekra...FriendSpots.jpg

And here is the corner of the tank they are sitting in. In the picture, they are slightly off the gravel. Friend is usually this way, but blue tends to sit literally with her belly on the gravel.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g54/ekra...tember06025.jpg

I noticed the package of meds says you can re-treat up to 2 times with 48 hours in between treatments. How should I decide whether or not to retreat?

The meds probably aren't messing with the ph. Do you have any ornaments or drift wood in there?

With a ph that is bouncing around it is a good idea to test for GH. General hardness, this will tell you how unstable the ph is and then we can go from there.

Unfortunetly I am not an expert with ph. Just learning about ph drops, so increases are a blur to me.
Get that gh tested and I will see if I can find someone to take a look at the ph issues.

For now I don't have a gh test kit but will probably buy one soon as I've been meaning to anyway.

I do have test strips that measure hardness in ppm, it comes out between 80 and 120, which is about gh 5, if I did the conversion right.

pH holding steady somewhere between 7.2 and 7.6, ammonia and nitrites 0, nitrates between 5 and 10. I have two aquarium ornaments and a couple fake plants, but they have been there since I set up the tank and the pH problems just started. No driftwood, either. The only recent change besides salting and meds is that I changed out the marineland filter with some plain filter floss before I medicated. I wouldn't have thought this'd change the pH though.

The fish are scaring me now. Both are nearly catatonic, they are alive but have hardly moved in the past 6-8 hours. Friend had a really big bright yellow poop about an hour ago. They are on an all pea diet still so I'm hoping that's the reason for the weird poop.

I'm wondering if I'm doing more harm than good with the salt water and meds, or if I just still need to stick with it. Friend wasn't even acting sick until after I started salting. I was very careful salting but wonder if I managed to put too much in?

Also, I am still trying to figure out if I should remedicate tonight or not. Any thoughts?

Thanks again LaurieP for sticking with me on this.

Well, there are some (including me on occasion) when all things you are doing aren't getting anywhere.......is to remove all meds, keep water pristine and go from there.

It is hard to know, but it doesn't sound good. I think I will move your thread back to the 911 section. With them being catonic that isn't good.

I don't think the filter and fake plants are causing a problem with the ph. But again, not an expert on that.

I am sure someone will be around later. Hang in there.

It is very important to know the kH (gH less so) of the water you are using. The baking soda you are adding will add more kH to the tank, but so much depends on where the kH is before you are adding it. It may be that you have enough, or it may be that you do not. A pH of between 7.2-7.6 is a fine pH - and probably means that you are fine on the kH, though. If you were not, you would most likely see this slowly drop as the nitrogen cycles worked in your tank.

It is unlikely that what you are seeing is a result of pH problems. (when it "crashed" - how low did it go?). Unless the pH is really bouncing up and down between 7.2 and 7.6, you are probably ok there.

It sounds like something else is working on those fish. The pH issues could have caused stress - and opportunisitic parasites or something have moved in, though.

I think the Parasite Clear is a good first step. It is excellent med - and can do a lot.

Another thing you might want to think about - how does the current in your tank go? AT 280gph, you have a little less filtration than you would normally want in that tank - and considering that no filter ever actually does the gph it is rated for as soon as it gets a bit dirty - you may have less filtration than is ideal, but, so far it seems to be ok (the parameters are good and I am assuming that the water is clear).

The reason I asked about the current is that, often, in the case of smaller fish, or stressed fish, a filter's current can be distressing. Fish will huddle on the bottom of the tank and not swim freely through the tank if they find the current too distressing. I used to have this problem in one of my tanks. My fish were always on the bottom. I aimed the spray bar to the wall and added some strategically placed plants to the tank to break up the currents. The fish responded by swimming happily again.

That is just a thought, too. I am throwing all my ideas out here - none may be accurate.....

Thanks for the advice. I'm sorry I didn't post an update last night, but I was having problems with the internet. I don't have much time right now but will give a more detailed post tonight.

I realized after my last post that Friends problems really started before I added parasite clear- more around the time I started salting. So I did a partial water change without adding salt in case that was too high and I did remedicate. Friend seemed better last night. Today he is swimming around some. Blue has done some swimming, too, especially right after eating, but is still spending a lot of time on the bottom of the tank.

I will get the KH and GH test kits on my way out today and let you know on those, as well as the rest of the tests.

The pH crash was about a month ago it was fine when I left for a 5 day vacation (7.0) and 6.4 when I got back. I don't know if something caused it to change quickly or if it happened over those 5 days.

I think the filtration is ok. I try not to overfeed, and I haven't had any water quality issues or clouding. I've heard I can check the current with a button on a string, but how do I know how much current is too much? They do tend to sit in the same corner or sometimes under 1 particular ornament.

One more thing, blue pooped a lot yesterday- a green color I guess from the peas. At least I think it was all her. Some of it definietly was, I saw her doing it. Not sure if this is important, but it was coming out in little bits as opposed to one long string like friend did the other day.

Got the kits and tested today:

Ammonia, nitrites 0
Nitrates 5
GH 3
KH 5
pH 7.8 (I have apparently been misreading the pH test that I had- what I was interpreting as between 7.2 and 7.6 must actually be off the chart. I got the 7.8 reading with a high range pH kit I bought today).

I'm not sure really what's going on with current. The button trick I was going to try didn't help much. Some currents in some places, none that seem strong. Nonetheless, I tried rearranging the tank a bit in a way that I thought might help.

I think the fish are on the upswing. Still some bottom sitting, but not as much as before, and they both attacked their food today. They are not 100% by any stretch, but were slightly better today than yesterday, which was better than the day before. Hopefully the trend will continue over the next few days.

Good to hear they are getting a bit better.

I would recommend testing the ph out of the tap with the high range test kit.

Just to make sure we are all on the same page and I understand correctly. Your tap water and the tank ph's are about the same, only after the water has been in the tank a "period" of time does it change......is that right?

No, I don't think I explained it right-

My tap water is pH 7.0 out of the tap, with 0 ammonia, nitrates and nitrites. I just tested and got GH 3 and KH 2 on the tap water.

Prior to the pH crash, my tank stayed pretty stable with pH almost always 6.8-7.0. At that time, I wasn't adding anything to it. When it did crash, it went to 6.4

Now, I add 1/4 tsp baking soda with every water change (about 9 gallons). After a couple of weeks, this led to an increase in pH to 7.2. I thought it was steady at 7.2, but maybe I was reading the test wrong. I have trouble with those last couple shades of blue- the water never seems to match up exactly with either of them. Recently, though, I think it got bluer. That was the day I asked if the meds might change the pH.

So for the past few days I thought it was somewhere between 7.2 and 7.6, but my new high range pH kit shows it at 7.8 So I don't know if this is a sudden change or gradual from my adding the baking soda or how long it has been like this.

I'll tell you one thing, as soon as I am gainfully employed again, I'm gonna look into buying a pH meter.

Well Friend is doing a lot better- acting like new the last couple of days.

I'm not sure if Blue is doing better or worse. She's swimming around more, but slowly, almost like she's really tired. She'll swim up some and then drift back down.

I've still got the salt at about 0.3% I guess I'll leave it at that and see what happens, unless y'all think I should be doing something different.

Ok, do you know what happened to cause the ph to crash?

It doesn't seem right to have a steady ph and then..........wham. My guess would be to stop adding the baking soda and see what happens. However I would test morning and night if possible to make sure it is staying stable.

Whatever the tap is as long as the tank stays within 0.2 points it is fine. GF can handle a higher or lower ph than recommended as long as it doesn't bounce around. So that could be causing the problem.

Good to hear one is better, hopefully the other will follow.

OK. I will stop adding baking soda and start testing 2x daily on pH for the time being. I'm going to do a water change right now. I'll test before and after and then in the morning and see what's going on.

Friend still doing ok, Blue still acting sick. Both are eating, but Blue is really slow to go get his food.

I'm not sure what caused the pH to crash. I thought it was weird, too, but I can't think of anything I changed around the time it happened.

Hi - sorry to hear about all your fish concerns! I have a couple of ideas that you might want to research. My fish had me very worried a couple of weeks ago, also due to bottoms sitting. They managd to pull through, and here are some of my thoughts as to why.

1. After 6 weeks of medication and salt for finrot and fungus, i slowly changed the water by about 20% everyday, until the water was free of any salt or meds. I wonder if all that gunk in the water can be stressful?

2. I took Darryl's advice regarding current and put in a tall plant to break it up. It worked!

3. I tested the water everyday, and kept the ammonia levels under constant surveilance.

4. I posted a question about fish behaviour, and recieved some feedback that had me wondering if the bottoms sitting might be a part of their breeding behaviour.

I hope this might give you some problem solving ideas!
Good luck, and i hope your little guys pull through ok!

Dana.

Thanks Dana. Yeah, I think your right about the meds and the currents being important. Letting up on the meds and changing my tank decos around (also at Daryl's suggestion, thanks Daryl) did seem to help my healthier fish start acting normal again. Unfortunately the original sick fish, Blue is still acting very sick.

Breeding behavior had crossed my mind, too. But it seems like too much of a coincidence that I recently had another fish die. Plus, I didn't notice abnormal behavior in my other fish until I started medicating.

Anyways, seems like the experts think it might be related to pH, so I've been trying to keep tabs on the pH- but I can't get the darn tests to match up! I tested my tap water last night with a regular and high pH test kit. The regular looked like between 7.2 and 7.6 but the high showed 7.8. Then the tank water was obviously off the regular chart, and looked like pH 8.0 on the high range kit.

Although I can't get consistent testing results, I am starting to think my tap water is to blame for the pH changes in the tank. I didn't used to test the tap water every week- just once in awhile. But it always came up at pH 7.0, and I tested the tank every week and it was always around 6.8-7.0. Now in the course of a month the tap water has tested anywhere between 7.0 and 7.8, and the tank water has been between 6.4 and 8.0.

Wondering if I should try one of those prepackaged buffers, say 7.5? Are those bad for the fish?

Also, just in case, I am going to treat for worms with prazi, seeing as how my last fish lost a lot of weight before she died, I'm wondering if its internal worms. Unfortunately, though, petsmart only had prazi with metronidazole. In order to get the prazi up to recommended doses I've seen on the site (2.9g/300G) the metro will go up to 1000mg per 29 Gallons. Is this safe for the fish? Thanks Eric

Most of the buffers that increase or decrease can be bad, there is one that is ok, but for the life of me I can't think of it.
Really if the ph is within 0.2 of each other it is ok. Especially with smaller more frequent changes.

I guess you can look at it this way. Say you have a 7.5 ph in the tank and a tap ph of 7.0, if you take out 50% you have now changed the ph to "around 7.3" make sense? So doing 2---30% changes in the week you most likely won't see a difference.

I think I would at this point, run pristine water, no meds or salt and see what happens. See if the fish perks up some. Often it can take a fish a bit to recoup.

A note on the parasites, as far as I am aware Prazi used in the water won't get internal parasites.......someone correct me if I am wrong. If you are worried about internal parasites, jungle labs makes a food that will take care of this.

Thanks for the note on the parasite meds. I have bought the jungle labs parasite food but not used it yet.

I'll hold of on that and just do the no meds, no salt, keep the water clean bit for awhile. Maybe I'll get lucky and that'll be all I need.

It may take a bit, coming back from a ph crash is hard on a fish.

Of course that may not be the only thing you are dealing with. It is hard to know, especially not being there.
I would look over the fish with a fine tooth comb everyday to detect "anything" out of the ordinary or anything that changes.

How are things going at this point?

Much Better!- sorry for not posting.

Blue still does some bottom sitting, but it seems to be less every day (about 10% of the day, down from 80%). Her swimming seems stronger, too. Also, she never stopped eating but I think her appetite has increased- she swims straight up to the tank when I open the top for feeding.

She is not 100% yet, but has improved daily for the last few days, so I am finally convinced she is on her way to recovery. For now I plan to just keep doing water changes to keep a close eye on the params and hope for the best.

I know I said this already, but thanks again for helping me out with this. None of my family or friends knows much about fishkeeping, so Koko's is the only place I have to go when there's a problem.

Erk that is ok, most of us have only each other. I am in the veterinary field and still have only Koko's for fish. Go figure.

It is nice to hear she is on her way. Do keep up what you are doing and let us know how it is progressing.
Good luck, nice you are here.

Just a quick note to say that I think Blue is completely better (knock on wood)- I haven't seen her bottom sit in a couple days, and her appetite is good and swimming is strong.