Here we go again!!!! Ugh!!!!

Test Results for the Following:
Ammonia Level? 0
Nitrite Level? 0
Nitrate level? 15
Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)? 8.3
Ph Level out of the Tap? 7.9 (I add water very gradually during water changes.)
Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? 55 gal, for about 3 months.
What is the name and size of the filter/s? Whisper 60 and Penguin 200
How often do you change the water and how much? weekly - 25%
How many fish in the tank and their size? Three - a 5" comet, a 4" brown comet/common?, a 4" chocolate
albino pleco
What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime, Kent Goldfish Essential trace elements (adds minerals
that my softened water doesn't have.
Any medications added to the tank? None
Add any new fish to the tank? the pleco - 4 weeks ago but only transfered from another of my own tanks.
What do you feed your fish? ProGold, and a variety of Goldfish flakes, peas once every 7-10 days
Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt",
bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? The right side of my brown goldie, Nemo (named because she was born with one fin missing) is extremely swollen - fins seem to be a little darker than usual. She was not swollen yesterday.
Any unusual behavior like staying
at the bottom, not eating, ect..? She is spending a lot of time inside the fake stump, but comes out to eat. She is still a little piggie.

I am not sure if she could be egg bound or if this is an infection. Her tankmate - an orange and white comet (also female) has been bumping her in the tushie quite a bit for the last several days. In fact, they were taking turns bumping each other, haha! Due to the change in weather here, the temp in the tank has gradually dropped from 76 to 71 degrees over a period of 4 or 5 days.

I could use some quick advice!!!!!

I just lost an eggbound fish unfortunately but she didn't drop eggs for 2 weeks so the swelling was a gradual thing. One of the telltale signs is gasping/heavy breathing which means there's pressure on the heart as well as resting on the bottom. If the swelling's very recent and the fins are darkening then it could be something else. How does her poop look? Is she gasping at all?

She is breathing a little harder and more with an open mouth, but not gasping frantically. Her poop was normal yesterday, but this morning she pooped a 3" long white string with an inch of normal as she finished.

She looks a little worse this morning. Less active, more down time. Whatever this is, it's happening very fast.

Are you able to take a pic of the swelling?

If she's breathing more heavily (and resting on the bottom of the tank) then this is a sign there's pressure on the heart. It's much different to gasping for air at the surface and the mouth contually opens and closes.

I have done some research on egg impaction and it seems there's some breeders that place their fish in a salt solution of 0.7% and stop feeding. But if she's not eggbound, this would cause more problems. Can you check her anal area? What colour is it? Is it distended at all?

She is worse today. I had two afterschool activities tonight and just got home - 8:30 our time. she has a long white thread-like poop trailing behind her - about 5 inches long. Her anal area is pinkish-red - not really bulging, but it definitely looks irritated. She is getting darker, kind of dusky, and is now spending time at the top and gasping. The bulge is so big now I can't believe she can breath or that her heart can still function! It looks like she's going to explode! I don't think she's going to make it!

I'm thinking I need to give her Maracyn 1 and 2. I don't have a hospital tank here at home. I think I'm going to have to do it in the 55. Shoot! I should have brought my 10 gal. tank home from school!

I could put her in the 20 with Ghost. (Casper died 3 days ago and Ghost is there by herself.) Ghost is still bottom sitting but eating well. I'm trying to think of how to do this. Ugh. I could switch Ghost and the sick fish. Do you think a chronic bottom sitter would be ok with a well-behaved comet?

I haven't figured out how to post pictures on photobucket yet. I'm not good at technology. I've had such a long day, I know I won't have the patience to do it tonight. I'll try tomorrow if she's still alive.

I hope someone is around to advise me tonight!

Here's some information I found on abdomen swelling:

When the abdomen is swollen or deformed, but NO scales are raised, that's almost always a cancer or egg impaction of some kind.

------------------------------------

Is the swelling even? Or to one side?

If you can post a pic - it would help enormously. I'll give you the steps to doing it

1. Open an account at www.photobucket.com
2. Click on browse and find the image you want to post then double click
3. Then click the upload button
4. When the image has been uploaded, highlight the url line directly under the image
5. Then copy the url
6. When you get back here, click on the little green and brown button up top (in the right of the envelope)
7. When the Explorer User Prompt box appears, just paste the url and click OK

The image should appear in your post then.

You could try placing her in a tub with 0.7% salt - and keep her in there for a while. It really does sound like egg impaction and there's no firm way to cure this (as I know to my cost) but according to these ranchu breeders, it's worth trying.

I'll try to post a pic first. This fish was extrememly sick this summer when my TDS got all out of wack and that lfs manager told me to use the wrong medication. I almost lost her then - literally floating belly up and black in color.

Last night I put her in the 20 and put Ghost in the 55 with Mabelene, the orange and white comet. Nemo, the one with the swollen belly is in the 20 by herself. I also did a treatment of Maracyn 1 and 2 last night. Today she is near the top, but not gasping at the water line any more. My hubby said he didn't see her at the bottom all day. He has watched her and Ghost closely all day. (God love'im!)

BTW! Ghost has not stopped swimming since I put her in the 55! She still can't suspend herself in the water, but I had no idea she had the strength to swim all day like this! Hubby says she is looking for her coffee cup that she sat in when she was in the 20. I don't know, but she is definitely swimming like crazy!

I'll try to post a pic later this evening. I'll need a stiff drink to try this, haha!

I sure hope that the maracyn 1 and 2 helps her..

How are things going?

I knew you'd ask, Laurie.

I haven't been able to post for a couple days, because I've had a pet emergency. My 16 year old Siberian Husky broke two toes and broke off two toe nails in the process. It took almost 2 days and 2 visits to the vet to stop the bleeding from the toe nails. (She slipped off of a step on our deck.) I've been nursing her and cleaning up blood 24/7!

Nemo, my sick fish is doing a little better after 5 days of the two Maracyn medications. The huge lump has reduced by more than half. She is a little stronger, but seems to be a little swollen all over. I think she was all along, but the one spot was so big that you couldn't really tell that her whole tummy was actually swollen as well. Her color is improving a little. The improvement seems to be showing from the bottom of her stomach and her lower sides first. The upper part of her sides and her back are still quite dark.

The dusky appearance was a thick slime coat. She has shed most of that now. There was stringy slimey stuff floating in the water and the dusky color is gone now.

Another question: On Thursday, I put Ghost in the 55 so that I could use the 20 gal. for a hospital tank. Ghost has not stopped swimming since then. She can't suspend herself and won't go to the bottom to rest. I'm afraid she is going to swim herself to death. She's been bottom-sitting for months with Casper. I know goldfish are supposed to sleep, but she hasn't slept since Thursday. I thought she was looking for her coffee mug that she used to sleep in, so I cleaned it, boiled it, and put it in the 55. She knows it's there, but doesn't go in it. How long can she keep this up? (She is the only survivor from the disaster in the 55 last June - she's one tough little booger for a stunted, slightly deformed white fancy goldie!)

Time to get some needed sleep. I'll check for your posts in the morning.

Nemo, in the 20, is still bottom sitting, but moves around a little more. She ate one pellet of MediGold yesterday, but didn't eat today. She is open-mouth breathing all the time, but I wouldn't call it desperate gasping. She kind of looks like one of those kissing fish - just rhythmically breathing, opening her mouth each time. She still seems swollen all over, but it's an even swelling on both sides. (She looks like she swollowed a ping-pong ball.) The big lump on her right side is not visible any more. If it's there, the general swelling is keeping it from being visible. Last Thursday, her right side protruded so badly I thought she would explode, and she looked terribly lopsided.
This is her 7th day of Maracyn 1 and 2. According to the instructions, I can only do the medicine for another 3 days. If she is still sick, how long do I wait before I can do another round of meds?

Ghost is still swimming constantly. She still hasn't slept. My hubby checks on her often during the day and he said she hasn't slept while I'm at school. She doesn't seem to be weekening. If anything she looks stronger than ever! I'm still worried, though.

I have tried to get a pic of Nemo, but the meds have made her water cloudy, even though I have done two 50% water changes in the last 3 days. Also, she has yet to be in a good position to get a good shot. I've probably taken 25 pictures, but none show what you need to see, either because of the cloudy water or her position. Taking pictures is very frustrating, and I think it bothers her quite a bit, causing her to hide.

I forgot to mention that I have not added any salt to the tank and didn't try the .7% salt dip. I have had such horrific results from salt that I am avoiding it right now. My softened water provides 130 - 160 ppm already. Adding salt just made things worse. I know that everyone recommends it, but I am afraid to make matters worse.

ing me?

I'm going to try one more post.

Nemo is worse. She is bottom sitting all the time. She is extremely swollen all over, and the lump on her right side is back. I am trying to get a picture tonight - I'm doing a 75% water change to clear up the water enough to try again for a picture. I don't know if I can get her into a position where I can get a pic.

Tonight is her 8th dose of the two Maracyns.

Well, I couldn't stand to just sit here, so when I did the water change, I added salt. After dissolving the salt (1 tsp per gallon - 20 gallon tank - 20 tsp), I mixed it into 10 gallons of water. I added 3 gallons of the water to the tank, one cupful at a time. In the time it took to add the 3 gallons, Nemo went from swollen to swollen and fully pineconed. I could see it happen!

Like I said, I've never had any luck with aquarium salt.

I have stopped adding water. Right now there are about 7 or 8 gallons of water in the tank.

I don't know what to do.

Since my thread was prematurely moved to the diagnosis section and no one has answered my questions for the last 2 days, I don't expect a response to mine today.

If she is still alive in the morning, I will euthanize her. I can't watch her suffer anymore!

I wish I had some advice for you, I am sorry you are having trouble again. If I see Jen or someone on tonight I will try and flag them into your post, k? Keep up the good work, you rock!

Nemo is worse than ever today. She is so swollen from head to tail that she looks like a fat frog instead of a fish. Her head is bent upward, her eyes are distended so much that they look like a telescope eyes. I'm calling around this evening to find clove oil. I don't think anything is going to stop this infection, and I can't watch her suffer anymore. While I'm looking for clove oil, I am going to put a heater in the tank to bring the temp up to 80 degrees. I read that this afternoon in the section on dropsy.

Thanks for caring, Jen626. I'm disappointed that none of the mods have posted since my post on the 26th. I had questions that were never answered and could have used some ideas. I'm assuming that my posts were read and no one had anything to offer in advice. I know that I didn't follow the advice to try a .7% salt bath because I felt she was too weak. She had recovered from the first tragedy in June when I lost 10 fish. I couldn't risk that strong of a salt solution.

After she has been euthanized, I'm going to do a mini autopsy to see if she was egg bound.

Ghost has still not slept, but she's still strong.

I'll post again tomorrow morning.

I am so sorry that it has come to this. You know I haven't seen the mods on very often lately, not sure why. I was on last night for quite awhile looking for them to come help you and never saw any of them. I think Laurie was on for a moment this morning. If you still want to try, maybe make a post in Emergency 911 section just linking over to this post, since this is definitely emergent. I know the mods check there first.

I am sorry that you are having to go through this with all you did to save these fish in the first place. I am crossing my fingers that maybe she'll turn around, but if not, I will be thinking of you as you let her go in peace.

bump

I am so sorry that no one has responded. I have had little time to follow all of the threads this week and feel bad that the others haven't either. I hope you can accept my apology. Please if in the future you have a thread running and it is moved and needs moved back, pm one of us to draw our attention to it. Again I am sorry.

Now to help if you haven't already euthanized her.

It sounds like her eggboundness has turned to egg impaction........very bad. Not much is sucessful but worth a try if you wanted. You are on the right track with the Maracyns, however the wrong salt is being added. You need to use epsom salts to help draw off the fluid of being swollen.
Be aware you can't mix the 2 salts together. So you will have to remove all the salt you added before trying the epsoms. If you want to do that I would recommend 50% water changes over the next 24 hours. The cycle is most likely affected by the Maracyns (have you been checking them daily?) So worrying about it bumping or crashing at this point.......well it is best to try and save her at the expense of the cycle.
If you want to try the epsoms the dose is different, 1/8 tsp per 5 gallons of water. To be repeated only twice in a 24 hour period if the first dose doesn't help the swelling.

Raising the temp to 80F is also affective. Basically treathing eggbound or egg impaction is a lot like Dropsy.
It is also recommended that you do Baytril (antibotic) injections if you can. This can be done by a vet or if you can get the meds from your vet you can do this yourself. We can teach you if need be.

Again I am so sorry, I know that not having help at this time has been devestating for you and hopefully you can forgive us. Please feel free to pm us if an emergency.

PS..........Thanks for the heads up Jen!!!

OH Grandma............sorry to hear about your dog, that can be a pain to deal with. ANd at that age, goodness what a nightmare. Hopefully she is feeling better.

Thanks, Laurie. I was just frustrated. I know all of the mods have lives of their own, and problems and maybe even some plans of their own. I hope you accept my apology for venting.

OK, I'll try the epsom salts. That means getting rid of the regular salt.

If I do big water changes - like 75%, how many water changes will it take. Also, my softened water has sodium in it. Should I get RO water to do these water changes? The water test I had done 2 months ago showed that my softened water has between 130 and 150 ppm out of the tap, depending on when the softener has run.

Maybe I should do a full 100% water change and change the filter floss as well. I could scoop her into a 1 gallon container until the water change is completed. Would that stress her out too much?

I understand the dosage of epsom salts, I just need to know how to be sure that there is no regular salt in the water.

I'll keep trying to save her as long as there is something to try.

No apology needed on your behaf, I understand your frustration.

Unfortunetly I am not familar with water that has salt in it, sorry. And RO water............not familar either. But I know others use this....the RO water. Do you use it occasionally for changes?

Now, for the changes, I would do 50% every 8 hours and not clean the filters. Leave as much bacteria in them as possible. It would be a good idea to test all params before and after each change. Especially before the changes begin. That way you know where you stand.
You will also have to remember that changes out that much water your meds will be non existant. So add them back in.

I would think after 150% water change it should be safe to add the epsoms. But with your water already having salt???????????? Hmmm, big poser.
Follow your gut with it. I am not sure how much 130-150ppm adds up to in 0.? concentration.........do you?

I'm sorry it's still looking so bad Carol (i've been in bed this week with a nasty stomach bug so haven't been able to follow much around here)...

I've done a lot of research of egg impaction and here's the advice I found from a breeder:

This is what I do when I have a female with this problem :

1°) Stop feeding her. Probably she is too fat.
2°) Add 0,7 % salt to the water.
3°) Massage her belly very gently for a few seconds - as many times a day as possible - and try to release a few eggs at a time. Be very careful.

Most of the time this works

This suggestion from another breeder:

"Another suggestion is to siphon water from the tank and mix in one tablespoon of Epsom salt for every one gallon of water and place an airstone in the bucket. Cover the top and leave the fish in the bath for 15 minutes each day until it shows improvement!"

As i've never tried any of these methods, I can't comment on whether or not they work

Also, I've never found any information that egg impaction should be treated like a bacterial infection so unfortunately I'm no help to you here... but i'm still trying to work out if it is egg impaction? It honestly doesn't sound like it - especially if the eyes are bulging... Is she pineconing at all?

When my telescope was impacted, she looked like the bottom of her body had been filled with water but there was no swelling anywhere else and she basically just rested on the bottom of the tank gasping.. there were no other symptoms apart from the swelling..

Hopefully the epsom salt will have a good affect especially as it will draw the fluid out of the body.

Anyhow, back to Laurie

Jen, when 2 of my females impacted they became septic. That is where treating with antibotics comes in. It is hard to discern when a fish goes from being bound to impacted, but it is deadly when they do.
I lost both, Squirt within days and Sapphire she dropsied 3 times and then I lost her.

I am hesitant with using regular salt, I have found the epsoms to work better.

It was my experience once the fish starts to impact after being bound, other signs of illness start.......pine coning, eyes bulging, flipping....etc.

Sorry to hear you are feeling under the weather.

If I remember right, you move the decimal point 4 places to the left, so I think 150 ppm would be .0150%

Maybe someone else know for sure.

I've used RO water before, when I discovered my weird pH situation. My pH from the tap varies, and then changes after 24 to 48 hours, so I tried using RO water instead of my tap water. It worked fine, but hauling water from the store for a 55, 50 and 20 gallon tank was insane. Since then I have added water very slowly for water changes, or aerated the water with an air stone to stablize the pH before I add it.

According to the chemist at the local water testing company, RO water gives a false pH reading. It takes on the pH reading of the water or objects in comes in contact with. RO water is so pure that pH is not an issue. It is actually better than neutral - it really doesn't have a pH of its own. There are also articles on the internet that explain the same thing. The only thing you have to be careful of is the lack of GH. I have Kent Goldfish Essentials mineral replacement to take care of that.

I think I will do one 50% water change tonight with RO water. (They sell it by the gallon at Meijer and I can use my camping jugs.) Then I'll pick up another 20 gallons tomorrow for the other 2 water changes. In the mean time, I will work on gradually increasing the water temp and replace meds as needed.

I'd rather not risk using my water since I know there is some salt in it, and I don't think using all RO water will hurt, since I will be replacing minerals.

Looks like a quick trip to the store is in order. I'll check here for posts when I get back, before I do anything else.

Sorry for another long post. ugh!

I wish I'd spoken to you when Moo became ill Laurie I would have tried anything

Carol, I'm going to keep my fingers crossed for you

Using the RO water sounds good. You seem to be more the expert than I, so maybe using it until this issue is closed with her then you can ease her back.

I would fast her (as long as she has been eating somewhat) about 24 hours, maybe a little longer if she is strong. Then I would hit her with a solid medicated food, preferable Metromed. If she hasn't been eating then I would start the med food asap. She has to keep nutrition up to fight IF this is escalating to impaction.

Hang in there, I will check back in with you tomorrow. I am off to bed.

Jen, you get some rest too................sleep tight.

I'm not an expert at all, but I've learned quite a bit from Daryl and from local water companies and the internet. At this point if it's a mistake, at least I've tried.

It's beyond amazing how much I have learned since I first got my fish last September.

I picked up the water and I'm draining 10 gallons as I am writing this.

Nemo hasn't eaten in 2 days, and the day before that she only ate on pellet of MediGold. I don't have Metromed. Will the MediGold do? I don't know what the difference is.

I just realized that I have a wedding to go to tomorrow. I hope I can get all this done and still go to the wedding. I may have to skip the ceremony and just go to the reception. My little sweetie comes first.

Update:

Temp is now at 80 degrees. I will do the second water change as soon as I get back from the store with more RO water. Nemo is still alive, and is moving around a little. She had been sitting in one spot with no movement unless I bothered her with the syphon tube. She still isn't swimming, but kind of scoots around once in a while. When she does, her tummy wobbles. I can see what Laurie meant, that she is full of fluid. She's still mouth breathing, but not as desperately as yesterday.

Last night when I was doing the water change, she upset me so much. Twice she opened her mouth as big as she could and held it there for 3 or 4 seconds. It looked like she was screaming! I know she's in pain and this whole water change thing is taking soooo long. I'm desperate to get the epsom salts into the tank so she can get some relief.

Gotta go now - time to buy more water.

Medigold should work fine. I tend to use Metromed for heavier hitting things, but it is best she get something at this point. If you are getting close to the end of the food or would like to order more I would choose the Metromed and switch her over when it arrives. If not, the medigold should be fine.

Is she yawning? They can sure play on your heart strings can't they? I know when mine are sick I just want to "love" on them. Hard to do with our fishy friends. We have to love with our eyes.

You are doing well. Hang in there, hopefully she will too. If you can get her to eat a couple pellets. That will help her strength.

Try and have fun at the wedding and update us if you can afterwards.
I have a party to attend myself tonight, depending on what time I get home I may not be able to check in. If so, I won't be on until around 3pm EST tomorrow. But when I do, I'll check here first! Good luck.

2nd water change is complete. Nemo swam around a little, and then went back down. Her swim bladder seems to be ok, I think she just has too much fluid inside to maintain floating. Her pineconing seems to be lessening a little. The scales near her spine are much flatter and she seems to be a little less swollen. I think the aquarium salt I added before was causing her to swell more. Now that I'm removing it, things look slightly better. However, she is still breathing hard and open mouthed, and she won't eat. I'll try to hand feed her tonight. I'm not very good at it though.

You're not going to believe this. I was trying to take more pictures of her and I dropped my new digital camera into a bucket of water!!!! How stupid was that!!!! I'm definitely not thinking clearly! I'm working on drying it out. Keep your fingers crossed, lol.

3rd water change after the wedding reception, and then I can add the epsom salts.

Fingers crossed!!

I am not at all a fish expert, but I'd like to offer a little bit of advice with your camera if I may.

I've dropped just about every electronic device known to man in water at one point (even had a game boy go in the toilet), and as long as you make sure that it gets FULLY dried, it usually works.

Open up all the flaps (memory card, battery compartment, cable ports and such) and set it out on a towel. Don't subject it to any heating elements to help it dry, but keep it in a warm dry place for at least a week before turning it on.

My digital camera survived a dunking in a hot tub last summer that way, so hopefully yours will too.

I'm glad things seem to be improving a little...now I forget, is the reason the water changes are so time consuming (besides the fact that they ARE time consuming!) because you have to use the RO water?

I can't believe it about the camera, although I have certainly done that with cell phones and almost with my ex-husband's digital camera at a gf show. Let's all cross our fingers that it dries out! If not, I am personally going to figure out a way to collect donations to buy you a new one!

Keep up the great work and try and take at least a few minutes of the day to relax and do something nice for yourself. :-)

THat is good she seems a bit better. Hopefully that continues. Of course you know how important it is to get her to eat. If you have to liquify some food and syringe feed her, it is worth a shot.

When Sapphy was dropsied she would spit it out, but I learned how to hold her and keep reinserting it. After the 3rd time she'd take it.
Even 1-2 pellets is something.

Sorry to hear about your camera, that is terrible. Hope it works when it gets dry.

Update:
3rd water change and addition of epsom salt last night. This morning she is still bottom sitting but when she moves she seems a little stronger. Her scales look like they are even less pineconed. She also seems to be a little less dark, except along her spine. She looks a little less like a fat frog, and more like a half frog, half fish. She's a fighter! I'm amazed that she survived so far.

This is her 11th day on Maracyn 1 and 2. Can I keep doing the antibiotics and how long? I have plenty - I bought more yesterday.


Thanks, Jen626. My camera is laid out on a papertowel with all compartments open and battery and memory card removed and dried. I'm hoping it will be ok. My hubby said he will buy me a new one if it doesn't work. It would be an early Christmas gift. My daughter dropped her cell phone in the toilet (yuck) and it dried out and worked for another year. I called her yesterday to get advice and she came over to help me. You can imagine how freaked out I was yesterday. When it rains, it pours!! I'll laugh about this later --- much later.

I'll update later tonight.

My Nemo died this afternoon. She fought hard, but she was just too sick.

About an hour after she died, I did a sort of autopsy on her. I just had to know if it was egg impaction. She was full of eggs, infection, and liquid. It looked like her organs had liquified. Now I know why she couldn't eat. The only thing that was recognizable was her swim bladder and it was small and empty - no air. There was hardly even any blood. I don't know how she lived so long.

I did this same thing when one of my other fish died, so sort of know what she should have looked like inside.


Well, now I have a 20 gallon tank that is empty. I'll clean it out and decide in a few days what I want to do.


Thank you all for your help and support. I'll check in with you later.

Wow, Carol, I am so sorry about the poor girl! I can't believe she got into trouble again after all the stuff she went through not so long ago.

Egg impactation can be very serious, and the outcome isn't always good. It is just too bad that we notice something wrong when things are already advanced. Especially inside troubles are so hard to recognize, and even diagnose.

Again, I am so sorry that Nemo didn't make it.

Oh how terrible, I am so sorry she didn't make it. But as Andrea said, once it goes to impaction it is very unusually that they pull thru. She was a fighter though so if anyone could it would've been her. Poor girl.

I hope you feel better soon, you were doing all you could. Let us know if we can help you anymore, sometimes just talking or support is needed. Take care!!!

I'm so sorry Carol - you tried so hard