Alright, I notice that on this and various other goldfish sites there is a rule that exists for common goldfish and it states that a 20g should be the minimum tank size for said fish. I don't get it though, most of us fishkeepers with experiance know that a common goldfish will outgrow a 20g tank, they can grow over a foot long, How is keeping such a large fish in a small tank justifiable? You wouldn't suggest putting an oscar in a 20g and they don't even grow as large as commons. We would not suggest putting a koi in anything less than a multi-hundred gallon pond so why the 20g rule for a fish that grows so darn large? For those who don't know here is some photographic evidence. These are NOT koi, they are common (or comet) goldfish.











These fish are large, fast and messy. A 20g is no place for them and I think a revision is needed in the tank size rule. Personally, I think a 75g at least is needed for a common with a multi hundred gallon tank being much better. For comets I think somewhere between 40-55g would be best. And while we are on the subject, a 10g tank is no good for the fancys, we have all seen those baseball or softball sized individuals and I cannot imagin keeping them in such a cramped space. Maybe 20g per fancy with 10g for every fancy added afterwards?

These commons have grown huge because they were probably in a pond or something like that, goldfish & common wont grow very fast if they don't have enough room,thats why its hard to tell the age of any fish if its a big 7" Oranda it might be old or it might have been bred in a huge tank or pond.

Fish do not grow to the size of their tank, if this was the case than why can't we keep fish in bowls? A captive goldfish can grow just as large as a wild goldfish. If you provide them with a healthy environment and diet there is no reason to think they would not grow just as large. After all, other fish grow large in aquaria, sometimes larger than they would in the wild simply because in captivity they are exposed to warmer water (faster metabolism) and live longer.

The 10g per fancy and 20g per single-tailed is the BARE MINIMUM, so it's not ideal but it's better than nothing.

I do agree with what u said about 20g for the first fancy, then 10g for the next ones.

Exactly Sandtiger. I agree 100%. The "10 gallon rule" is the absolute minimum for a small goldie. We tell people all the time that they need at least 10 gallons a piece, we often neglect to tell people that they will need a much larger tank as the fish grows.

im not saying they wont grow as large as their tank,i am saying they will not grow as fast as if you had them in a pond. Obviously if you put two baby fancy goldfish in a 60 gallon tank they will grow quite fast. All the pictures you have show us are commons that have been in a lake or pond. This is why Breeders in japan put their fancy goldfish in huge water areas and not fish tanks,they want them to gorw as fast as they can. And why can't you put a goldfish in any bowl?well it wouldnt live. If you buy a 60 gallon tank and you put 6 fish in there their growth rate is going to be VERY slow.

I have to agree that I also think that these fish pictured have grown to that size because of where they live. The picture's show clearly that they don't live in tanks, There fore they would grow much larger than a fish in a tank.

The Bowl rule has a lot more to do with than just having enough room, Filtration etc. Come's into play with that rule also.

I agree with Riz on the Gallon Sizes, It's ideal, Better than nothing.

I have to disagree on one account though, GF do grow to the size of their tank.

I also really think this thread has the ablity to get out of hand, And Fast. Let's keep it nice..It's a intresting thread, With really great fish pic's!!

Yep. AND, their age also follow their tank size. The smaller the tank, the quicker they go kaput.

Here's my thoughts on this matter:

40-50g per single-tailed and 20g per fancy is ideal, but the society is not ready for that yet. To most people, goldfish is still regarded as cheapo pets and I'm afraid that attitude will change later rather than sooner. Goldfish status (and general knowledge) is currently better than 50 years ago, and people are *very* gradually taught that goldfish is a high-maintenance pet, but once again, they're not ready yet for 40-50 gal for one single 20 cents comet. 10g per fancy and 20g per single-tailed is a good compromise for now. Who knows, maybe a few years from now, if KGW is still around, we'll get to the stage where it's fit to change the 10g/20g rule to 20g/50g, and when that time comes, us goldfish enthusiasts should party like there's no tomorrow

Yes, I don't want this thread to turn into an arguement. I am only trying to express my views on what I feel is an important subject.

Golem: I just don't feel that those are good BARE MINIMUMS for such large fish. IMO a bare minimum sould allow a fish to grow to it's full size, anything less will stunt or cram the fish. Yes, it's better than nothing but as a site I feel we should promote the best possable way to keep fish, we all care about these fish and whether people like it or not the bare minimums need to be changed.

To all the others who mentioned the fish in the pictures and how large fish can grow, I have to protest. It makes no sense that in a healthy tank with a healthy diet a fish's growth would slow down. Look at it this way...in the wild a fish has to find it's food and exhaust more energy. In captivity they are hand fed pellets often more than once a day. In the wild they only live so long, a predator or some other environmental factor will kill them probably long before they reach full size. Fish, unlike us do not stop growing. Older fish are larger than younger fish. In captivity fish live a lot longer. In the wild fish have to survive through a winter period (if they live in that kind of place). This slows metabolism and growth, fish are cold blooded. In captivity they live in year round constant temps. Typically warm temps in the 70's. Lastly, in the wild fish have to deal with pollution and other foul water habitats. In captivity, if you do it right fish should live in very clean water that's changed often. Fish cannot sense the size of their tank and only grow so large according to it, they cannot change what genetics have determined. The only was a fish will stop growing is if it is kept in a stressfull unhealthy environment. Please people, I am not trying to start trouble. I have been around this site long enough that I think people know that I know quite a bit about fish, both in and out of the aquarium and how they function. I keep over 22 species of fish of all sizes, I have over 50 individual fishes. I studied fish in college and have had an interest in them for most of my life. I'm not bragging here, mearly saying that I know what I am talking about.

I don't think that's good enough. Why should the fish suffer because "people are not ready"? Promote the larger tank size, if the members don't like it than that's too bad, if that's what the fish need and they cannot provide it they need to find a new species of fish. In is common knowledge among aquarists "in-the-know" that larger tanks are actually more easy to maintain. They also aren't that much more money. A 29g kit averages around $100. A 55g kit around $150.

Most people won't listen when you tell them to buy a 55 gallon tank for a 20 cent fish, thats the sad part of it. It doesnt matter if youre right or not unfortunetely. We can't tell them what kind of fish they should keep, just give our advice. In the end, its up to the people themselves.

I agree that this thread is not going in a good direction so cool it everyone!!

On another note, i think that keeping a feeder comet or common in a 10-20 gal is a lot better than being fish food. I agree that larger goldfish should have between 20 and 40 gallons but for the most part, most peoples fish are not as big as the fish in the pictures.

If the people won't listen than there is nothing we can do about it but we can still provide the information. I myself will continue to suggest what I feel is right, so if you see me in a thread telling people they should have something larger than a 20g tank for a foot long fish than you will at least understand why.

I don't see how this thread is going in a bad direction. So far everyone has been acting fine. There hasen't been any name calling, insults or anything of that nature. If you can point out specifics than please do.

Give them time, other people's fish will grow...provided they A) Survive long enough and B) Live in heathy conditions. I have personally seen how large a common goldfish can grow over the course of a few years in the right sized tank.

Nothing like that has been said YET. Just saying to watch what you say.

Ah, alright.

Not everyone on here has to do what you think is good enough, There are plenty of us on here that have well mainted tanks with beautiful healthy fish living in them. And as a site we do encourage a certain Gal ratio per fish. I would rather see somene putting a GF in a 10Gal rather than a bowl, Or worse. This site also promote's the idea of DIY, To keep costs down. There is no reason that you can't have beautiful fish along with the cost's of huge tanks, I think that is why a lot of us use the Rubbermaid as a alternative sometime's. Not everything has to be bigger and better.



Truth remain's, Like someone mentioned before that Goldfish have just recently became a popular breed again. With that come's some learning and that is what the most of us are doing on this board. We are not perfect. Nor do we claim to be. You are almost making it sound like you know all there is to know about raising fish in general. I know you studied fish in college, But that still does not give you expertise status.



What I think is causing the most problem with this thread is your tone. Your coming off as harsh and knocking what everyone else has said thus far.

I was also pondering if the 10G or 20G rule needed to be revised. Atleast if you're trying to get the best progress in raising goldfishes. I think 30-50 gallons is more sutable for a fancy and 70-100 is require for the long bodied goldfishes.
Also it would be best to think of wakins, jikins, comets, and shubunkins in the same category as commons in the idea of fish per gallon.

Although don't take this idea to seriously I was thinking in terms of quality over quantity, if you guys have 2 ryukins and only a 20 gallon tank then hey atleast you're doing your best with the resources you're offered.

I have to agree with Froggydella on what she said

"What I think is causing the most problem with this thread is your tone. Your coming off as harsh and knocking what everyone else has said thus far."

That is what i was personally feeling when i read the thread for the 1st time,it made me feel like everything i was trying to say and respond to your topic was totally wrong,and that you weren't willing to agree a little with our opinions.

I wan't this topic to stay friendly,the whole point of putting a topic in "goldfish Discussion" is to get everyones opinion,and i hope it stays at that

it would have been best if this was looked at more thouroughly and placed in the reseach section IMO. thus only further research may improve or debunk these type of claims.

Thank You. OB. I would also like it to stay friendly, It's a good topic and I'm sure we can all offer some good advice. The tone just needs to be well...toned down a bit.

"Although don't take this idea to seriously I was thinking in terms of quality over quantity, if you guys have 2 ryukins and only a 20 gallon tank then hey atleast you're doing your best with the resources you're offered."

I really think that is a very good point. Maniac!!

From what I understand, the growth rate of goldfish has more to do with the hormones they secrete into the water than the actual tank size-but they are directly related.

Goldfish secrete hormones in the water and when those hormones reach a certain level the fish receives a message to stop growing (simplified version). The smaller the tank, the sooner the hormones will reach that level and have the fish stop growing. And I believe there is something to do with those levels allowing only some parts to grow if they are too high, which is where stunting comes in and can cause internal organ damage and stuff.

Now, i may be way off on that but that is the way I understand it. I still don;t think fish should be kept in tiny bowls no matter how often the water is changed-that doesn't make the fish happy which also has a direct relation to their general health and well being.

I think more is better for gallonage too-20 gallons for the first fish and 10 each thereafter is good, and more is better. My new calico telescope has been in my 20 gallon tank for 5 weeks or so by herself and is growing like mad. I feel badly because I have 4 commons/comets in a 55 gallon-but these fish grew up in a ten gallon tank all together, and it was the best I could do for now. More gallonage is better, but it is difficult to tell soneone brand new coming here that they need a 40-50 gallon tank for their 20 cent feeder, I agree. I always say 10-20 gallon minimum (depending on the type) but more is better.

Just my two cents, and if I am way off base on the hormone thing let me know...

This topic has remained sensible so far so keep it like this please

I could add a lengthy reply, but im not.

This is Kokos site and as such we go by her rules. I personally say commons are pond fish but indoors one fish will eventually need at least 50 gallons and a fancy can and will do well in a 10 gallon for a year or so but will need a larger tank.

This site is to help those that need it in whichever way they need and all we can try and do is educate.

The 20G per fancy rule sounds like the fish would be living in a mansion. But I have three fancies and I can't afford a 60G tank. I would love a 60G, but a teenage budget can't really afford it. Granted, Cracker is starting to look like a big orange cow in the 29G.
Besides, isn't the 10G rule listed on the site as a "rule of thumb" and not strict requirements?
A 10G for a baby fancy is a ton better than a "Betta bowl" or a "goldfish bowl" any day.

Not all common goldfish will grow as large as those in the pictures, genetics and diet have a role to play as well.

As others have mentioned the 10g/20g guideline is only a basic minimum recommendation, others also mentioned that many fancy or common goldfish need more than this due to their size.

In a perfect world we would give each goldfish 100g to swim their merry heads off but until then so long as nobody recommends less than 10g/20g they can practice what they believe to be best, we don't all have to agree. Nobody has to prove a point on this thread either - it's just open discussion.

Well, I look at it this way. If I were a feeder fish in the pet store, I would rather someone bought me and put me in a 10 gallon tank and I only lived a few years, than to die miserably in the overcrowded pet store tank or be fed to an Oscar. Life is not perfect. Most people WILL NOT spend a lot of money buying a 75 gallon tank for a 25 cents fish. We have to be realistic here. I think the 10/20 gallon rule is the most realistic for how things are. It may not be the most perfect setup for the fish, but who has a perfect life anyway?

I was going to say everything Jen said, so I'll just say, yes.. I agree with you Jen

I get the point about people not wanting to spend so much money on such a large tank, but there are some people here that could afford it and if we dont tell them at all, then they wont. After all it is a recommendation. So if we recomend 10G per fancy, that is all they are going to buy (usually) but if we recommend 20 per fancy, they might get that.. or might not.
I think it just need stressing a bit more that is is the bare minimum.

As said,what we say is all just a general guideline here.Most people that have fish on this forum,have small goldfish from the LFS's.
It's really all about the size and weight of a fish.
I kept 3 baby Oranda's in a 30gallon. That worked for the first year.My biggest baby is now at least 10 inches +.
If you looked at these three fish now in a 30 gal.,you'd probably think "Oh wow,there's not too much extra room to spare". These three guys are now in a forty breeder tank,and what a difference it makes for room.(The other 2 aren't near her size) It never dawned on me,--- even knowing how much they'd grow ,that I'd need a bigger tank.Most people don't realize that because most people on here don't have fish that large.When you see it for yourself,is when it hits home to you.
Now on the other hand,I have a Blue Oranda,that came to me in poor health,and very small.I've had her for a little over two years now. Although she appears to be quite healthy,she has barely grown. This fish was stunted from it's fry days-She will never grow much and could actually stay in a ten gal. for quite a long time.
I won't speak for anyone else,but I can say that when I "recommend",I always try to say the words "at least"," a minimum of ten gallons", or give them an idea on the size that Goldies can grow.

As a beginner starting out with a small goldfish,I think the information that we give is fine. I think as you gain experience first hand,and knowledge that you gather being here,member's will begin to realize that all fish aren't going to turn out like the "Carp-like "fish that you've shown.Hopefully common sense,and time on this forum will make people aware that you can't keep an 8 inch goldfish in a ten gallon tank.

Exactly. Common sense...If you see your fish is outgrowing its tank then most people who care and can- will upgrade their tank.
But there will always be people on students budgets(Anic and many others)and people who live in confined spaces who just don't have the space but who love their fish dearly and equally much as the 100 gallon tank owner. These people will give their 1 fish a loving home for many years in a 10 gallon and that is a good thing and should also be applauded. It isn't only and all to do with space. Water changes, good food etc count as much don't they?

i think if you buy small younger fish you will need to look at up grading much quicker, then when you have larger older fish, i currently have 14 fancies in a 179 gallon, and my husband and i are quite prepared to by another 6 footer, for our 4 new babies, in about 2 years if we still have all our fish. all my fish are about 2to 3 years now, so they have slowed gown abit in growth size but are now maturing more, with wens and growing bigger in width, but the babies are only 2 inches so they still have quiet abit growth left, until they start to slow down, that is why in about 2 years i will be able to see if i need another bigger tank.

This is a very interesting discussion and it's great to hear so many views.

All I wanted to say is that I think it is important to remember where we are starting from here.

If everybody was already keeping a goldfish in 10-20 gallons minimum, then I fully understand the reason for wanting to push forward for a higher goal/standard, but unfortunately as we all know that is not really the case.

In many situations, the starting point is 5 goldfish in a 3 gallon tank or that kind of stocking, you know the kind of thing. We hear about it all the time on this site.

So, all I would say is that it is a big jump and we have to consider all the other factors that influence someones decision to keep a goldfish in the first place. Of course, overall the welfare of the fish is the most important factor.

I think recommending a reasonable bare minimum volume of water per fish (of say 10-20gallons) is a very positive thing

I also think of all those people living in city apartments who would love to live on a big ranch, but it aint gonna happen!

It's not about what I think is good enough. It's about simple facts, an 8" common goldfish is a small common goldfish and not even a fish of that size can really be kept in a 20g tank. It's easy to say that goldfish in captivity won't get as large as the ones in the pictures I posted but how long has anyone kept a common in a tank? Does anyone really know how large they can get? A 10g is better than a bowl but that does not justify it. Just because something is slightly better does not make it right. I like your DIY ideas and am glad you mention it. It's proof that for a cheap price (cheaper than a new 20g) you can provide something like a common with the size tank it needs. It does not have to be a money issue.



I'm not saying I'm perfect, or that I'm an expert. I mentioned my history with fish for a reason, so that maybe people would trust me on this. I know about fish growth, tank sizes, stunting and all the varous details and am trying to share my knowledge because like everyone else I care about fish. How does anyone know they are doing something wrong unless someone tells them?



The most harsh post I have read so far was this one. I was not harsh, I did not pick out any individual, I have supported my side of the debate and defended it with facts. I have no idea how I can tone it down because if anything I am having a bit of a hard time not bringing up the tone.

Sadly there is no such secretion, even if there was you could take it out with the water changes.

Well yeah, a 20g does sound a bit large and it is pretty large for a fat waddling goldfish. It's not just a matter of space for the fish though, it's also a matter of bio-load. The more (or larger) fish you have the more waste they produce and the more you will have to clean the tank. They will be more likely to get a disease as well. I have two oscars in a 75g, both around 9" and in my eyes, they look like they have enough room but when the nitrates climb above 20 ppm within a week and I have to do two large scale water changes within that week than I know it's not all about size. For what it's worth, common goldfish can easily grow 9", produce as much waste as any oscar and in the end can actually grow larger.
There is no reason to think that even someone on a teenage budget cannot keep a goldfish. For the record, I am 22 years old and work part time on as a farm hand, I have only been living on my own for two years. I am not rich, far from it. A teenager who wants a goldfish can easily get a 20g for a fancy, but keep it at that. If you keep it simple and don't go beyond what you can handle than you will be rewarded with a goldfish that's not only surviving but thriving and will continue to for many years.

I think what we are doing is setting people up for disapointment and a premature death for their fish. I can picture it now. A young person who perhaps live with their parents, in college or does not make much money wants a goldfish. Like they should they do research, they want to keep a happy and healthy fish. They come here for advice. They are told a 20g...or even a 29g is the bare minimum for a common goldfish. It's the bare minimum yes but can still hold the fish. So they get their 20g tank, set it up, cycle it....do everything right and than go out and buy their fish. They feed the fish a nice healthy diet. The best pellets and flakes, frozen treats, fresh veggies...the fish has an excellent diet. The person also buys a test kit, they want to make sure their water is in tip top shape for their fish. They check the water every week and as needed change the water. All is well. Skip some time later, the fish owner has done an excellent job raising the common goldfish, it's gotten large due to the excellent care. Naturally with this size has come more water changes. What were once weekly 25% water changes are now two 50% water changes a week. The fish continues to grow, reaches an awsome size of 8". Mind you a 20g tall (knowone on the site said a long tank might be better) is only 24" long. The fish can only swim it's own body length three times, the tank is also 12" wide so the fish is almost as long as the tank is wide. Eventually the person cannot handle the tank anymore, the water changes have become too much and life as proved to have gotten to busy to keep up with it. The owner is forced to A) Buy another tank B) Get rid of the fish or C) Take more time out for it. Cannot buy another tank, cannot afford it (a budget remember, the same budget that stopped them from buying a larger tank in the first place). The person gets a full time job, great...save up some money. Sadly, water changes slip, only one a week now. The nitrates climb beyond the point that the tank can handle them and ammonia and nitrites show up within a week. The fish gets a case of ich, fin rot, dropsy or some other disease. The owner ends up loosing the fish. The goldfish had a potensial lifespan of several decades but rather died a miserable death in a tiny tank within only a few years, despite the best intentions of the owner doing they best they could with what they had.

This indeed is a very interesting, and informative, discussion, so let me add my 2 cents to it...

Unfortunately, goldfish are still seen as cheap and easily disposable fish, and therefore for many people it doesn't make sense to buy a "cheap" fish and invest into a big tank for it (I do get the idea of a rubbermaid not neccessarily be an appealing object in your living room... ) Nobody would think of sticking an oscar, a cichlid, or a huge flowerhorn into a bowl or any kind of small container and expect it to grow big and healthy. Too bad that people's opinion of goldfish are the way they are, because those same oscar or flowerhorn keepers invest quite a load to keep their fish in proper shape, and hardly ever question the general rule of at least 50 gl for the fish.
So, why is it so hard to understand for people that goldfish are just the same? I always find it positive that Petsmart has started to mention 20 gl as standard for the fish, yet in the same sentence they lable it as a beginner fish, which in my opinion it is not.
As with any hobby, beginner goldfish keeper might start out in a bowl, evntually learn the right way to do it, and over time evolve into experience and the knowledge of how to proper care for their fish. I was the same - at one point having 12 big goldfish in a 55 gl tank. Not proud of it, no, but I am sure I have quite a huge number of people in my shoes. But you live and learn, and you change what you can.

Now, none of my fish, not even my tiniest telescope of barely 1 inch, has any less than 20 gl. Most of my fish, especially the bigger ones, have at least 30 gl, even more than that for my single tailed comets and shubunkin. My 3 shubunkin are in a 160 gl tub, and believe me, they need every inch of it too. Quite a few experienced friends of mine with goldfish, they all have 50 gl per fish, but of course, those are mostly pond fish. It is kind of hard to envision the same gallonage for a tank fish. He might look quite lonely to an untrained eye. I had my big 9 inch oranda in a 29 gl tank during his quarantine period, and the poor thing had no problem at all filling that tank out. He actually was pretty happy when he joined the other orandas outside in their huge tub.

I think one of the main problems is that most people never get to see how much potential a goldfish really has. All they see are the tiny feeder fish, or just generally small fish, in a pet store. "How on earth can such a small fish need so much tank space?" - a very common thought, I am sure. Thats why I brought two of my largest adults to my daughter's school fair, when I heard that a parent gave away 300 feeder fish as prizes for games. You should have seen the parents' eyes when they realized how big their prize is gonna get! Shock, to say the least! Most parents thought that my adults were some kind of deformed oscar...

One other thing - the theory of "I buy a bigger setup once my fish starts growing" backfires a lot of times! Not only is there a whole lot more of work involved in form of tank maintenance with a smaller tank, the fish also will have some percentage of stunting already in him, and no matter how many times you "upgrade", the fish will always lack behind in his potential growing. Quite a big investment over time - in equipment that keeps piling up, but also in extra maintenance and time.
So, you save some in the initial tank setup, but you spend a whole lot of unneccessary money while "upgrading" every 6 months or so. Plus you risk your fish never seeing their true potential in growth, but they also will be exposed to a lot more stress in their small environment. Stress = illness, and here we go for medicine investments and such again. My fish hardly ever get sick, and there otta be a reason for that.

One last thought - very few people consider buying a Great Dane when they only live in a small apartment, or a huge sulcata tortoise if they don't have a backyard, or a trailer to haul that thing off to the vet. So, why is it that people find it perfectly fine to stick that potentially georgous and huge goldfish, yet small but still, into a tiny bowl, or even in some cases a 10 gl tank. If you ever saw an 8 inch fish in a 10 gl tank, you never look at goldfish the same way again, believe me.

Okay, now I am done, and I hope nobody is asleep yet

Sandtiger, as for those growth hormones supposedly not existing, go and visit a koi/goldfish show sometimes, and try to convince those koi keepers about that. Quite interesting actually to hear otherwise, that is something I never knew before either. http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...?showtopic=7981 I have talked to quite a lot of koi, and goldfish keepers, about that, and it was amazing what I heard. Yes, they are being taken out by water changes, but lets just guess how many beginners actually do a big weekly water change? Yeah, right, not that many. "Just topping off the water, or cleaning out once a month", thats what we get to hear.

I perfectly agree with more water for fish, no matter what size, but its a matter of believing, compared to the matter of people getting convinced. Lets face it, most learning occurs when people have to do it the hard way.

Even if this secretion does exist (and until I reas scientific proof I will still doubt it) it would still need time to build up in the system and that would allow nitrates to climb and waste to build up. The only kind of stunting I know of is the kind caused by poor water quality and not the size or the tank. Fish stunt in smaller tanks because the water quality gets lower. This caused deformations, internal problems and other similer results. that would harm or kill the fish. I have seen stunted fish, it's not pretty. So if a common goldfish that is supposed to grow very large, over 20" in some cases but at least 12" is kept in a 20g it will outgrow the tank or suffer from the poor water quality and stunt. Your link though was interesting and I will do the research that's for sure. As for the rest of your post...EXCELLENT, I loved what you had to say!!!

hi, a year ago i bought one oranda and a fantail. Apparently they have been living together since they were babies. When i got them they were already 3 years old. All I had available for them was a 20 gallon tank. Unfortunately I never new about tank cycle, all i was told was to buy a fluval canister filter and i would only have to change the water twice a year.
So for a while they appeared inactive, so i did a water change and all was well. During their first 2 months w/me, I changed their water three times b/c i knew nothing about cycling and i was misinformed on fluval canisters and water changes. Long story short, I clicked into kokos website and discovered my mistakes. Ok, so believe it or not i still had a lot to learn about water changes since i was still unsure of canister filters; therefore for 2 months i never changed the water, never checked the canister, just tested the water for ammonia, nitrites, and ph, which were always perfect. I did not have a nitrates test at the time. I also give them a variety of food.
Anyway, thanks again to this website and all the info. the members here have provided I soon learned that water changes are important as well as testing, especially for nitrates.

The reason why i am posting this is because from the time i got my fish until now they have grown at least 2 to 3 inches bigger. Also my oranda's wen has developed more beautifully each month. So far they have been w/me for about 13 months.
Now perhaps I was fortunate to have purchased these amazing fish who for the first 3 years of their lives had lived in a tank less than 20 gals and despite all of my mistakes, including not getting a tank larger than 20 gals have managed to still grow almost twice the size they were at the petstore, I cannot help but be confused on growth of fish in general.
Do not get me wrong, I do believe the bigger the tank the better for the fish. I had been planning on getting a 30 gallon for my goldies but thanks to this post will be getting a 40 gallon instead . I just need to know how my goldies were able to grow despite all of my mistakes and the obvious mistakes of their previous owner? Believe me, i had a lionhead live in a 5 gallon for a year and he was bigger than my oranda when i bought her and she had to have been at least a year and a half older.

Side note, my lionhead did not die b/c of the 5 gallon, he died after i moved him into the 20 gal and added a friend who i did not realize was sick.


karla

I think the 10 gal for fancies and 20 per commons is still good for a beginning tank size. As a BEGINNING tank size it is o.k. Most people do have to upgrade as the fish grows , that is a given. It also has a lot to do with genetics. Some goldies due to genetics will not grow that large. And as pointed out in a previous post those fish you have pics of are from a lake

Maybe as a beginning it works but there are a couple problems with that. One would be cost, two tanks cost more...why not just get the large one in the first place. Also, you cannot predict the future, the fish might grow but you might not be able to get that larger tank, even if you said you would previously.



And as I pointed out many times before, with detailed explanations as to why...where they are from does not matter.

sorry just to not confuse anyone, these mistakes that i had made since getting my goldies occurred during the first 5 months that i had them. like i posted earlier, this website made me realize my mistakes and ever since i've been doing weekly water changes and monthly canister maintenance. So for 2 months during the cycling process i only changed the water 3 times and the 2 months after the tank was cycled i did not change the water at all. I felt so bad .


karla

You have to take into consideration that a lot of people who found this site were uninformed about goldies and their requirements including me in the beginning. So the 10 gal or 20 gal rule for someone who comes to this site for the first time and does not realize the requirements, 10 or 20 gallons is much better than a bowl or a little 5 gallon that some have fish in. Some people have to upsize as the fish grows because of ecomonic reasons. I myself gradually upsized as mine grew. To hint that others are cruel because they can't aford a 100 gallon tank is a little unfair

*Snoooooore........snoooooore* Huh?!? What? Oh, good posting Andrea!

Hehe I'm just messing with ya

About the growth-inhibiting hormone thingy, a research done by a well-known betta breeder on male bettas concludes that males from the same spawn when kept in separate jars earlier will have 30% longer fins than their community-kept brethrens.

I take that into consideration fully. I just don't agree in telling people what they want to hear rather than what they need to hear. I keep hearing this "10 or 20g is better than a bowl". Yes, it is but it's not good enough for a fish that grows longer than the length of the tank! That's like saying....yeah, I beat my dog but not as much as the guy next door so it's alright. Cruely is cruely, some worse than others but that does not justfy the others. And as for cruelty...I never called anyone here cruel. Some are misinformed...even yourself if you believe a captive fish cannot grow as large as a wild fish. I am trying to inform and educate people. Maybe someone will see this and say "Hey, maybe a common goldfish isen't for me" and get something smaller. There are over 25,000 species of fish, many that can fit in smaller tanks. Like ranchugirl said, you would not get a great dane if you lived in an apartment, why do it with fish?

P.S. Keeping a fish in ANY body of water that it can outgrow IS cruel. I don't except excuses, when you take ANY animal into your care you are responsable for it. It cannot make the changes needed to improve it's life. Only you can, if you cannot properly care for something you should find someone who can and get rid of it. I also think everyone should research whatever animal they want BEFORE they get it, sadly not everyone does and the animal suffers. There are many fish I would love to have but do not because I cannot give them what they need.

Karla, I totally understand what you are saying. Your fish have probably grown because they came from a bad situation into a better one. Maybe not a perfect one, but a better one. Nobody is perfect, and willing to learn is already the first step to improvement. Ignorance is the worst - believing one doesn't need to learn is terrible. We all are here to learn, and at one point or another we all were in the same shoes.
I got a rather big oranda from a chain store (roughly already 5 inches plus 4 inches of fins). He looked pretty good, all the fins were where they are supposed to be, no visible sign of illness or stress. Not much of a wen, but nicely deep bodied, and basically I felt sorry for the fish swimming with other same sized fish in a 20 gl tank. I learned from the manager that a lady had brought him in together with a big black moor and an 8 inch koi, and those fish had outgrown her 30 gl tank (oh really, you think?? You are sure there wasn't space for another fish?? )
After 2 weeks of quarantine I happen to bring the fish with me to a show, and we noticed in the show tank that his wen had the telltale spots of growth going, and lots of them. Well, now after 6 months with me, his wen has almost doubled in size, and the fish has gained another inch in body length. Just a proof that some things can be somewhat reversed with proper care, even as a big fish.

Sandtiger, I have had the same discussion about "research first before consider buying an animal" with a tortoise rescue group in SoFla. I am in the process of adopting a sulcata tortoise, the third biggest tortoise in the world with a potential weight of 120-150 lb when fully grown. We were ripping our hairs out when we talked about all those people who buy them as little hatchlings, because they look so cute. Cute face, puppy face, baby face, whatever we hear. The truth is, 90% of those buyers don't have a clue about what they are getting into. And another sad truth is, a lot of sales people are either clueless as well, or wouldn't dare mention the adult size out of fear of loss of business with those potential buyers. Now, we are talking a price comparison of 150 bucks for a hatchling sulcata, compared to a 3 bucks baby goldfish, but the principal is the same.
There is a whole huge chain of people that gets involved with the purchase of our pets, and the beginning fish keeper trusts whatever advice he gets from the sales person. We trust them to tell us the truth, since they are working in that business. We trust that those employees are properly trained, but we all know how it really looks in reality. If one finds a reliable person in a store, please feel like a lucky duck and enjoy it.
I guess what I am trying to say is that we all came here to learn for one reason or another, and the most effective way to learn is through own mistakes, and through kind advice from experienced keepers. Kind words and positive experiences fall onto good ground, while negative experiences make people look for a friendler place. One oscar board comes to mind where you basically got shred to pieces if you dare asked basic question, that you were supposed to know. Easy to figure out that I never visited that board again.

I think I know what forum you are talking about, I'm on the advice team over there. That site is a bit over the top and I get annoyed with a lot of members there. The thing is, a lot of people over there made the mistakes and had to suffer the results so they are pretty die hard about driving thier point home. When someone comes in everyday saying they have an oscar in a 20g it gets annoying.

Why are you editing sandtiger? Not liking whats said? Will give my little placard buddy another go

My lionhead who died was my mother's fish. She had him in a 5 gallon tank and then when she had to go away for a while i took him in and he stayed with me until he passed away. I wish I would have known about this site before he died, he probably would have made it. Prior to me getting the 20 gallon tank I had done my research all over the internet, learning more about their diet, housing, etc. In almost every site I've read it says 10 gallon per fish is good enough space. So I do not think people do not do their research I just think when the majority of sites are telling you the same information you are more likely to believe they know what they are talking about therefore you go out and do what you have learned.
I did a lot of research, read up on people who own goldies and what they have done to keep them healthy. I would spend hours just trying to find all you can, that is why i had to convince my mom to get a bigger tank for her fish. And I know it makes no sense that w/all my research i would have known more about water changes, which i did but as I've stated before, I messed up on water changes thanks to the "expert" at the fish store and was new to canister filters.
So to say there are no excuses is not fair b/c we do the best we can, we try to learn before we get our pets but with so many so called fish experts and sites telling you from "their own experience" we do not realize that perhaps they are sending out the wrong message. Just recently I came across a site from another "expert" who states that UGFs are ideal filters for goldies, whether that is true or not, people will read this and either continue researching or figure this guy/girl knows what they are talking about and will go buy one thinking that they are doing the right thing. I'm doing the best I can, I made mistakes and I'm learning. My fish, believe it or not appear happy, well except for now b/c they are waiting for breakfast . Same w/ raising kids, you do the best you can w/the first, learn from your mistakes and try to do better w/the next one. But like i said i am grateful for your post and from what i've learned and will upgrade asap.

karla

Usually it's to fix a typo. I type fast and like an idiot typically read it after I post it. Sometimes I fix something I said for whatever reason.