I think the flash scared him, he started darting around like mad!



These last 2 are the ones I meant to post.

I'm sorry your fish is ill, and I haven't had time to read the whole thread, but could you give me a brief recap of your tank age and water parameters, etc? I notice you are running an undergravel filter, and this may be the cause of some of what is going on. UG filters tend to trap excess food and waste and spike the ammonia. I almost lost my two to this. PM is fine if you don't want to repost it all, I'm afraid I just don't have the time tonight to go through the whole thread.....

Please don't panic. That is the worst thing you can do for your fish. Give me the brief run-down on your setup, though and I will see if this resembles what several of us have gone through with UG filters.

Hang in there, he's a cutie!

Dave

Thank you, I'm just so stressed. His little goldie friend died last week
I have a 30 gallon tank, it's been running for several months now although I started out with an uncycled tank. Ammonia 0, nitrites/nitrates 0, pH 7.6, temp around 75. Long story short, my other fish got sick (dropsy, I think) and died. I began doing some small water changes using aquarium salt, because the one that's still living started looking sick. I bought some Maracyn 2 and just dropped the tablets in. Someone here told me that they wouldn't be effective if I didn't dissolve them first. So I dissolved some and added them (the same amt as day 1, 6 tablets because the first day is 2 tabs for every 10 gallons). Then I read where someone told me to just swish the water around and it would be fine. By that time, I had already dosed the 2nd time. He was just laying on the bottom and someone told me to do a 50% water change to make the Maracyn dose right, so I did that today. I haven't added anymore medicine, but he looks much worse since I did the water change.

Oh, I also have a Whisper 20/40 filter that hangs off the back of the tank. I must say, when I poured the new water in today (no salt, doubled Prime) there was alot of gunk coming up from under the gravel.

OK, that is what I was expecting to hear.

The gunk from your UG filter is the key here - that stuff will whack out water chemistry in ways unknown to mankind - but never for the good. GF are so messy that UGs get clogged and start to retain waste VERY quickly. My disaster with my UG happend also at about 3 months tank age.

Do you have (or can you get) another tank or Rubbermaid tub? Ten gallons will be sufficient for now. If so, start with clean water, and whichever of your filters will fit, and the heater. Plan on daily 50% water changes; you may have to do more depending on what your test kits say. Pristine water is the best help in these circumstances, but do not expect overnight results, patience and persistence is the key here. Continue to dose your meds and salt in the temporary tank until the full course is done. And don't worry too much about being confused with med dosages and how to apply them. I personally write everything down and check my math at least 3 times, and still make mistakes on occasion. Just do your best.

Tear down the 30, throw the UG filter AWAY. Sterilize the whole kit and caboodle, using at least bleach, preferably Potassium Permanganate followed by bleach. Then we'll restart and get a good fishless cycle going. We can discuss this process further once you are in a stable situation.

In my experience, getting a fish out of this type environment as quickly as you can manage is best for the fish. I gotta warn you, tho, it is a LOT of work I'm suggesting. Only you can decide whether this is do-able for you. And I'm afraid I canot offer you any guarantees, but I've been through this with several folks here, and our success rate has been good.

Best of luck!
Dave

Thanks, Dave. I don't have another tank or tub but I can get one tomorrow. I don't mind cleaning the tank at all. Meanwhile, since I have the filter that hangs off the back, should I turn off the UG filters?

Yes. Turn off the UG. Please!

Get the cheapest 10 gal setup you can find (will make water changes easier, and can dose less meds). A rubbermaid tub is fine, but I've always just gone to the local petstore and gotten a tank, easier to see what is going on for these old eyes. You can run it bare bottomed. Makes it easier to see waste that needs to be vacuumed out. Acclimate the fish as you would if you'd just brought him home - put him in a well-rinsed plastic pitcher half full of his current tank water, then slowly add new tank water until the pitcher is full; empty half, repeat. Do this over about an hour or so. Then net him into the new digs.

I will tell you that this process is not without stress for the fish and you may lose him. However, from what I've read you are going to lose him without some radical measures. Is he eating? Do you have any medicated food?

If I am right, I would expect to see a visible change in his behaviour within 2 days. But it will take a lot longer than this to get him well. Hang in there. If the fish wants to survive, we can get him through this, I believe.

Dave

Thanks for your help. I'll keep you updated. Everything is closed around here, but I'll get a 10 gallon tank tomorrow during lunch. I hope he can hang in here. He's floating verticle now, head up. Poor baby.

There is a chance we cannot save this one, but we will get you to the point where this won't happen again, I promise.

Please keep me updated, I will check in as often as I can.

Dave

The daily water changes done very gently and meds are most important now. Follow the med instructions on the packet.You have to decide if he is strong enough to move.We cannot decide that from the pics. I have lost fish from moving at this stage and I have lost a fish because I didn't move. It really is your call Cristi on that. He is still eating so he has the will to survive. Were you able to get the medicated food suggested medigold for example? That would help a lot.

Parkerdt, if you look at the pic the undergravel filter is attached to the overhead filter here, as my UG is the same, so there will be no filter on at all if she turns off the UG filter.

Cristi- I know you are confused but everyone is actually saying the same things. Your fish needs to be in good water..perfect water in fact. that means new water with a matched pH. Then meds.Whether you do this in a new set up (tub) or the original tank, cleaned out, as I suggested before, is up to you but the meds will not work well in water that contains ammonia or nitrites. Have you checked them recently?

Your tank was cycled but so much has happened it may not be now. Could you tell us the ammonia and nitrite readings as they are today?They need to be zero. Please post back when you can .

Christi - is there any way you can hold him and check what colour his gills are? While I believe it's bacterial in nature, I'm not convinced parasites don't play a part in this - especially as you've lost 2 already.

Checking his gills will give us an idea of whether or not this may be the case.

Also, using maracyn can cause havoc with your parameters so as Trinket says, test your water and double check all is in hand.

You could remove your UGF (those things are a problem creator unfortunately) as suggested, especially if you still have a hang on filter. BUT, if you do remove it, you'll need to remove your fish also and an easy way of doing this without too much stress is by grabbing a decent sized container or bucket and filling with 50% of your tank water and 50% fresh water (temperature and PH matched, dechlorinated water) then gently place him in. You could attach your hangon filter to the tub also.

Then you can remove your ugf without any gases escaping - making him even more ill.

I'm very worried that the meds aren't having the desired affect and this could be due to one of 2 reasons, first - it could be a gram positive bacteria in which case Maracyn would treat this more effectively (Maracyn II treats gram negative bacteria) OR second, there could be a parasite at play causing a secondary infection which means we're not addressing the source. I just wish you lived close by and I could bring my scope over and we could do a scrape - this would show whether any parasites are inhabiting his skin and unfortunately it's the only fullproof method of knowing

So if you can, check the colour of his gills and post back.

OK, I am not familiar with that type of UG filter. Unfortunately it sounds like the worst of all possible combos. We need to gat a hang-on or a cannister going ASAP for her tanks. Based on what she saw at water change, my bet is that pulling that UG is going to result in a huge brown dirty stinky cloud. And the fish must not be in that tank when this occurs.

But we're all agreed - th fish needs to be in perfect water *somewhere* to have a chance. I just do not believe it will be possible to get perfect water in her current 30 gal with the UG. When stuff starts decomposing under a UG, all sorts of fun stuff is released - hydrogen sulfide, for example, that we typically don't have test kits for. It is these toxins that weaken the fish in spite of any meds, based on what I have seen.

Dave

I agree Dave so moving him would be a good plan - even with 50% tank water and 50% perfect water. This will ensure a reduction of shock that will be caused by the move. Based on Cristi's post, she has another hang on filter which wil suffice if moved over to a clean tub and this will be the first step to success

The main problem is the issue of bacteria and whether it's a strain that's not resolved with Maracyn II plus what precipitate it? Parasites?

But I think we all agree that optimal water is the first and most important step and then we need to figure out how to resolve the bacteria that's ailing him

Jen,

Sounds good.

Also, the sludge under a UG is almost the perfect breeding ground for parasites. I'm wondering if that might be the issue here? Just thinking out loud...

Dave

He was gone when I got up this morning Everything was closed last night so I was going to get a 10 gallon tank first thing. Oh no, I can't believe he went so fast! He wasn't nearly as sick as his little friend who died last week. How sad

Christi,

I am very sorry for your loss.

Dave

I'm so sorry Critsi

Please don't lose hope though - you can set this tank up to be a lovely healthy environment for any new guys you get.

There's a couple of things you can do:

- remove the ugf

- add another filter to give you 10 x gph (so in total 300 gallons per hour)

- reduce the amount of substrate you have in the tank - there looks to be a couple of inches which as Dave mentioned is a good breeding ground for bacteria and parasites

- give the tank a good clean and you can do this with bleach 1:19 ratio which will effectively kill anything lurking in the tank - just rinse the tank well a few times after

- befofre adding new fish, try a fishless cycle using pure ammonia. This way when the tank is fully cycled, any new fish will have the benefit of the best water possible.

Again Cristi, I'm just that sorry

And, Cristi,

Let us know if we can help you through this process. Jen has given you some good steps!

Given that we are not sure what went on in you tank, I might suggest bleach at 10:1 (3 gallons for your 30 gallon) and let it run through your filters, and all except heater, for 24 hours. THen lots of rinses, dry in the sun, and restart. I personally would boil the substrate, 10 mins at a rolling boil as well.

Losing fish is tough, we've all been through it. I hope you will want to continue in this wonderful hobby, tho.

Again, my sympathy for your losses.

Dave

Cristi- I am so very sorry

Thank you soooo much. You're such a supportive group! I just never realized there is so much to learn about little goldfish. Wow, it's incredible! I had really decided to give up, but after reading all your encouragement, I'm going to try again. I think it all started with adding fish to an uncycled tank. Question...I have a couple of algae eaters in there, and a few little neons. I bought a 10 gallon tank and thought I'd just clean the 30 gallon one with bleach, as you suggested, and just let it set until the water was perfect. This little tank doesn't have a lid and I've read on this post about fish jumping out. These can't jump..........can they? One of the algae eaters stays on the bottom, the other one (a "Chinese" algae eater) scurrys around the sides. None of them are new, I put them in with the last goldie. I'd hate for them to see what I did to the beautiful goldies and commit suicide!

Can someone tell me if my post has been moved? I was looking for help about saving the few fish I have left while I clean the tank.........thank you!!

Seems your post is right here, Cristi. I suspect we can help you accomodate your other fish while you clean and cycle your main tank. What fish do you currently have, and what sort of container/tank do you have available for them to live in while the 30 gal is getting fixed up?

We'll take this one step at a time.

Dave

Thanks for your help. I only have about 5 little neons and a couple of algae eaters. I bought a 10 gallon tank to put them in while I clean the 30 gallon one, but it doesn't have a lid and I was worried that they'd jump out. I'm thinking they'd need to stay in the 10 gallon tank for a few days until the 30 gallon one was cycled. Is that correct, or can I just clean it real good, dechlorinate the water, and put them back in?

It takes anything from 3 to 6 weeks or longer to properly cycle a tank It wont happen in afew days.The way it works is the ammonia is released form the poop and the food that is not eaten and that ammonia gets converted into nitrites which at the beginning is harmful . Later on when the beneficial bacteria have begun to grow in the tank filter sponge and on the gravel or substrate these nitrites are absorbed by them and are no longer a worry. This is a very simple expl. You can read about it more in "How to cycle a tank" on the front page of kokos in the left side column .

I think that you will have the same problems again if you dont cycle this tank properly. The way to cycle is usually either with one fish only or with no fish and feed the empty tank food or ammonia.


If you wanted to put these fish in the 29 now, you would need to do huge water changes every single day- like 50% or 7o% for several weeks testing the water regularly. I suppose its possible but it is also risky.As the nitrites peak- the fish get weak and prone to disease.

I don't think theyll jump out if the water is an inch below the surface.

I suggest just a few cms of gravel well rinsed. The large amount of gravel makes for very difficult cleaning.

Please ask away anything I havent explained well.

Trinket explained it wuite well, I think - here is a link to the article she refers to:

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/cycle.html

As for the 10 gal, doesn't have to be a fancy top - almost anything will work - piece of screen wire, even an old sheet clothespinned to the top.

Please ask if there is something you do not understand after reading the link, I am sure many folks will be happy to help explain if it is confusing.

Dave