Hi everyone...I have been treating my sick fish with help of Daryl in the Goldfish Discussion Board -it started out as a question re: Salting Tank for a mild case of fin rot and has escalated. Right now, water params are as follows:

ammonia .25%
nitrite. .25%
PH 7.8
nitrate 10ppm
46 gallon tank - had since September, 2005 - but Daryl says it is "Cycling" again because the fish have been on Medigold for 14 days now and since I was feeding them several times a day it upset my cycle. I have two Penguin 200 filters and recently added another Penguin 150.
I have four goldies in my tank - three of them are no more than two inches and one is about five inches - they are fantails.

Two of the fantails (the younger have been sickly. THe one had finrot which is MUCH better - the other exhibited signs of SBD, with the help of Laurie P in this very thread, I fasted and did peas and epsom salt, and she seemed better but never really stopped the main symptom of isolating in the corner tank nose down...At that time, Laurie suggested that I treat for parasites, which I was going to do, but then, I saw the finrot on my other goldie - at that point I decided to salt the tank and feed everyone Medigold
After two days both fish (finrot and SBD) responded very well and were active and swimming at the front of the tank..their poop was the color of the medicated food and they seemed much better.

About two days ago, the fish with the finrot, (which has healed nicely) started hanging out behind the big decorative log I have in the tank - he is not bottom sitting nor are his fins clamped, so I did not feel too worried about it - from time to time he would come out especially for food..However, the little fishie with the SBD started isolating about three days ago - and she had not done that for some time..I am sdone today with the Medigold (14 days) and don't know what my next step should be - I have been doing regular water changes to help the cycle and am not sure how to help this one little fishie - Daryl suggested that I put my thread in the Disease/Diagnosis so here I am...Also..I have been treating the water with Prime as I attempt to get the cycle back to normal - prior to the Medigold and salting the tank, my water params were always excellent...

I note you recently added another filter. Did you add any old media to it or just put it in as is? This could be the cause of the mini cycle if the tests are raised about a week after adding it.

As for the nose sitting. This is either due to kidney failure, parasites, or gassy food.

How highly salted was the tank as small fish dont do well if theres too much salt in the tank and this can cause kidney damage.

Parasites only if you have introduced something new to the tank in the past 3 months such as plants or new fish. Did you feed tubifex at all?

As they have been on medigold this shouldnt give off gas, have you fed them anything else?

Hi Sandy - I added the filter only two days ago or so..the tank's cycle was interrupted because I was stuffing them full of Medigold and they produced more waste - or at least that is what Daryl believes. The salting of the tank was done per Daryl's instructions I think at .3 - but the fish was and has been doing that position for weeks prior to salting the tank. Since Medigold does not cause gassiness, that can't be an option because that's all I have fed them for 14 days now - I never treated for parasites. I have not had anything new added to the tank recently, although months ago I did buy live plants, but I treated them per Koko's site,so I thought they were safe. Is it possible that this fish has (1) kidney failure? Now that I am done with Medigold, should I treat for parasites to be safe? How do I know the difference?

Hi - I did not abandon you! But, Sandy is one of the most capable disease people available. Please, Sandy - an extra pair of eyes is invaluable!

I think I would suggest the next step would be to ease the salt on down and treat with meds for parasites. The first that comes to mind is flukes. An infestation of flukes can weigh heavily on a fish - making him lethargic, but not seriously in trouble for a long time. Finally, the parasite load and the lower immunities takes its toll and the fish suffers.

IF you did not raise the salt beyond 0.3%, I doubt that there is kidney damage. Just start changing the water now and NOT including any salt in the fresh water added back into the tank.

I suggest that you now treat for flukes. The best treatment for flukes and, actually, a wide spectrum of nasties, is praziquantenal or Prazi. It is available in many forms - one of the easiest to find and to use is Parasite Clear by Jungle Labs. This contains prazi as well as some antibiotics to help secondary problems. It is not a really strong dose of Prazi, but it may do the trick. IF more needs to be done there are multiple steps up to take.

What 'cha think, Sandy?

I am a bit suprised that the tank has not come around, yet, in the cycle......

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.......

Hi Daryl..I did not think you abandoned me - you have been so helpful! Thanks..Sandy, you too! Question, I read a lot of Toothless' posts about flukes and parasites...how will I know if the Parasite Clear works? It seems that flukes come back very easy...

IJust did a 40% water change now and did NOT add any new salt.. am going to go get the Parasite Clear right now...I will check back one I have it in hand if I have questions...

Ok..the place I usually go to was out of Parasite Clear - so I am going somewhere else tomorrow. Question, though - how do I know I am dealing with flukes? Also, if there are flukes, how come only one of my fish is showing symptoms?

Sorry..one more question, I tried to edit my post but I could not:

None of my fish spit out food, but they all do yawn quite often. Is that the key sign of gill flukes?

Also, in reading the board, the experts say that salt at .3% heals flukes..well my tank was salted at that ratio for about ten, eleven days and as I said above, the little fishie seemed much improved the first six days or so and then started isolating again...I am kind of confused..

Excessive yawning is a good sign of gill flukes but I would have thought that dosing to .3 would have killed them off. If the fish is weaker than the others then parasites will pick the sicklier one first as its easier for them to take a hold.
Im not good with the meds in America so it looks like you need something stronger than salt but gentle as well.

I dont suppose you can get a microscope can you and do a skin/gill scrape?

Do a couple more water changes through the week to keep your water good as well.

Can you see inside the gill flap on the ill fish at all. You might have to lift him out and gently lift the gill cover to see if theres anything unusual. Healthy gills are a cherry red.

Just as an after thought. Have you had a good look down the throat to make sure there isnt anything there? To get a fish to open wide press gently on the underside of the chin and the fish will open up.

In my experience with flukes, the 0.3% salt will often help very quickly, but then cease to be of much use after about 2-5 days..... I think it kills off the susceptible parasites, but seems to leave more capable ones behind. The salt can help keep a lid on the growing populations of flukes as you are treating them in other ways, but in my personal experience, I have never been able to clear a tank of flukes with just salt.

I have had success with light infestations of body flukes and the consequent bacterial infections that always seem to come hand in hand with them with Parasite Clear. Because it is relatively cheap and easy to get (usually!), it is often the next step. I try to keep some in my arsenal at all times.

The next step would be Prazi - the full and total deal.... it 'taint cheap, but it is truly a wonder drug.....

http://www.pondrx.com/store/customer/produ...32&cat=1&page=1

I buy this stuff in the BIG bottle for it keeps a LONG time. I treat all fish coming into the house. Any tank with any changes gets hit with Prazi. I have had soooo many flukes it would make your head swim - and the fish do not! But the PRazi will wipe them out, as long as you hit it multiple times, hard. It is FANTASITC stuff. I have also had luck with Prazi in clearing multiple other parasites from tanks. I never intend to be without the stuff. The fish I got at the last show came home with flukes.

Just a thought - if you have any access to a microscope, it can go a long way in helping to identify various fish problems, as Sandy has stated. Before I got one, I used one at the local high school, or one at the local vets. You might want to look around and see who might be willing to share with you. High schools tend to be extremely helpful.

Ok..I ordered the PRazi from your link, Daryl. Sandy, I checked the gill flap and it is cherry red on the sick fish..the only two things that are suspect are the (1) isolating nose down and (2) the occasional yawning (P.S. all fish yawn in my tank..) No other noticeable symptoms...I am going to wait for the PRazi and treat the tank to be safe...but there is a part of me (maybe it is denial) that thinks maybe the fish is fine and she just likes to hang out and isolate nose down..or maybe she had SBD so bad that now she has some internal damage from it and that is a comfortable position..I don't know. At any rate, I am going to treat the tank and hope for the best..

Hi Newfishmom,

I am glad you started this new post as I missed your other one and was curious aout how your fish were doing. Sorry to hear things have gotten worse. I had a bad case of gill flukes last year and I think Toothless said that the only thing that really kills them dead is Prazi so I think you are doing the right thing - good luck and keep us posted.

I think you and I are having a similar string of issues maybe steming with the introduction of our new fish. I also had signs of a bacterial infection (used marcyn2, medigold to clear it up), constipation/SBD (tried fasting/peas) , and a bump in the cycle (my nitrites went up probably due to overfeeding the MG in the hopes that it would clear up the bacterial infection). My fish are doing better now (no more red patch, no more white poops) although they still show the weird swimming (more vertical, occasional flips). They are on JumpStart food now and I am feeding less - only a couple of pellets (broken up) a couple times a day with occasional peas. I am thinking of starting Parasite Clear once I know my cycle is back to perfect to clear up any parasites that might be lurking.

My fish and I wish you and your fish our best!
--sea

Hi Sea: Thanks for the post. I am so relieved that my one little fishie is better with her finrot - also, she is much more full of life. Now..if I could just get this other little fishie better...It's so upsetting to see her sitting in the corner of the tank with her nose down just looking miserable. Wheneve I walk up to the tank she gets up and starts swimming to me..I feel horrible.

I got these two fishies that have been sickly in September, 2005. At the time I had two other fishies in a ten gallon tank - I knew I had to upgrade so I b ought the 46 gallon tank....the two other two fish I've had since April 05, and they are fine. Anyways..the fish that is isolating alternates between stringy white poop and long poop the color of the MediGold - I truly believe she has a bad case of constipation as well..I am wondering if I should fast her while I am waiting for the PRazi..It's so hard to know exactly what to do..I just want her to be better!

At this point..I am waiting for the PRazi to ship..but honestly, I am scared to use it - I mean, will it harm my other fish? What is this fish does not have flukes - and she just has swim bladder damage from the bad case of constipation she had a few weeks ago? I don't know..

I really don't know what to suggest - I am certainly not an expert and have had my share of fish problems. I can tell you that when I had flukes it was very obvious in terms of the fish's behavior. They were hiding a lot and when they came out they were darting and flashing around the tank like crazy. They would yawn and spit out their food. They were miserable. Of course they could have had a really bad case of it and yours can be early on - I can't say. I also know that most everyone here that used Prazi has had great luck with it but my experience was different. Although it did clear up the fluke problem, my fish got much worse (resting on the bottom of the tank almost constantly, having trouble breathing, looking near death). As per LaurieP and Touchofsky I stopped the Prazi a couple of treatments early and just put him in clean water and wished for the best. It took him about 4 weeks to fully recover but he did I can't say the worsening condition was due to the Prazi (my fish was already sick, I had salted the tank, etc.) but thought you should know. I remember that at least one other person here said they had a similar experience post-Prazi but again can't say for sure that it was the cause (or if it could be the specific version we used). If I was sure that my fish had a bad case of flukes I would use Prazi again (being careful to monitor the fish's condition, etc.) but otherwise I am not sure. As Daryl said Parasite Clear is also very good. I have used it several times with no bad effects. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

--sea

Sea..this is what I am worried about...the symptoms of flukes seem very obvious, and my fish don't have them with the exception of yawning - no flashing, scratching, spitting out of food, etc. I suppose I should try the Parasite Clear before the main Prazi since it may be another type of parasite....

Daryl, Sandy..do you agree?

Update..my isolating fish is constipated, that I know for sure, but now, my fish with finrot appears constipated as well - I mean, despite the fact that the poop is the color of her food, it is long and trailing - that is constipation -so do I do peas now and stop the Medigold - today is the 14 day mark..

It's me again...I tested my water right now, and it looks like my tank is ok as far as its cycle - amonia 0 ppm Nitrite 0 NitrAte 10 ppm and ph 7.8 - So..does this mean that my water is in "pristine" condition? Is there something else I can do before I treat for these parasites..?

HELP! My largest fish (she is about four and a half inches) - her eye looks funny - like it is popping out!! Is this popeye? Now what do I do?????

Please someone can you look at these pictures and tell me if my fishie has popeye? I am lost!

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h165/Cry...31/IMG_2350.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h165/Cry...31/IMG_2359.jpg


Also, this is my sick fish I have been talking about as far as isolating..

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h165/Cry...31/IMG_2349.jpg

Can someone please help??

The first pic does look slightly popeyed but nothing too bad yet. I cant see anything physically wrong with the last one but hiding away isnt a good sign and may indicate something bacterial as well, though flukes can do that.
I would go ahead with the prazi but i dont know that much about it so hopefully someone with knowledge of it can help more.
Long trailing poo is constipation so stop feeding for three days then feed the peas.

Sandy, thank you. Hopefully Daryl will swing by or someone with experience with Meds in USA and tell me if I should use the Prazi or the Maracyn I/II?

I know Prazi knocks flukes on the head but maracyn for anything bacterial. Hope someone sees this

Thanks Sandy! I know, me too - I don't know what to do!

Sorry - I ahve been dealing with sooo much this weekend.

You cannot go wrong with the Prazi. To tell you the truth - I have had it take care of a wide variety of nasties - not just flukes. Sure - it is a bit overkill for some things, but it does a bang-up job. It is VERY gentle - you can majorly overdose and not cause any problems. It can only help.

Maracyn I & II are great treatments for bacterial problems. You can use them at the same time as the Prazi. In general, you can use anything at the same time as Prazi. You can even salt, prazi and maracyn I&II at the same time without consequence.

I would definately suggest getting that MAracyn in the tank. If you have M I and M II - use them both. They hit different types of nasty bacteria - I have had more luck with popeye/dropsy treatment with the duo working.

Treat with the Prazi as soon as it arrives - right in there with the MAracyns.

Ijust got a new product to use on my fish with the non-healing wound. It is called Maracyn Plus - it is supposed to have "microscopic bio-spheres that attach directly to the fish delivering the medication where it is needed". I will have to let you know how this works. I suspect it will be more valuable for open wounds than for systemic infections, though.

If the Maracyns and Prazi do not do the trick, I have some other suggestions up my sleeve.



Oops - Edit - I would suggest to still keep feeding the Medigold, but perhaps, instead of the second meal of Medigold, give peas. Or, if you have fed it for at least 10 days, stop. Give the fish a day or two of fasting and feed peas. Then you can return to the MediGold for another 10 day round......

Daryl:

Thank you so much for your help. I appreciate it greatly. I know you must be so busy, and that makes me even more appreciative: the fact that you still find time to help me and my poor sickly fish...sooooooooo here is my update: I have added the Maracyn I and II to the tank per the instructions. The instructions call for a certain amount per each 10 gallon - since I have a 46 gallon I got a little nervous, I thought about what you said about tank volume, etc., and dosed my tank as if I have 40 gallons of water - should I consider it 50 gallons? Please tell me what you think.

I am still waiting for my Prazi and plan on putting it in right away. I think my big fish, I call her McKenzie, who has always been fine, looks really weird the last few days. I posted a picture of her, above..Sandy said it looks like it may be the beginning of popeye...what do you think? Plus, today, I noticed that one of her gills seems to have an extra flap on it..I know that may sound weird, but that's the only way I can describe it, like an extra piece of "gill skin" by the opening? I hope I am not too late and the Maracyns work..she still eats. This little fish (who is now huge) came to us not more than one inch long - and now look at her! I don't want to lose her! Or any of them for that matter.

I will post when I get the Prazi..I am waiting anxiously for it. As for now, I have the first dose of the Maracyns in and hopefully they will help... Talk to you soon...

Ok..update: I did Maracyn I and II second dose tonight...fish seem the same, my little bibbles (the isolator nose down) is still doing that..Mckenzie, the big one who I am afraid has popeye seems the same, but I think her eyes are changing, there is this dark ring forming around them - I posted pictures for input if it is even popeye or not..fingers crossed this Maracyn works. And I am still waiting for my Prazi...

Ok..day five is done with the Maracyns. I am still[i] waiting for the Prazi..anyways..what do I do now that it's been five days?? CHange the water..but new carbon in my filter? I am a little lost..let me know..thanks.

Hi NewFishMom, I was just wondering how your fish were doing - I hope they have recovered.

--sea

Your fish don't seem to be exhibiting the symptoms of flukes as far as my limited knowledge of the subject allows me to tell. And unless you've just introduced a new fish, where would the flukes come from anyway?

In my experience when a fish goes 'quiet' and isolates itself, it's a water quality issue. The finrot you mention also is a water quality issue, when the bacteria overcome the fish's natural immunity. As is nose-standing. As is constipation. As is everything else you'e described. It's all water quality.

Your tank is cycling and you're testing the NH, NO2 &3, but what I'm talking about is other stuff like total dissolved solids (TDS) from wastes etc which you can't test for (without an expensive electronic meter device) and continually build up and hence the subsequent bacterial and fungal blooms feeding off this stuff. And just like ammonia or nitrate, the water may look clear, but it's actually full of this stuff. Fish have a built-in immunity to all the standard bugs in water, but only up to a limit. When the TDS and hence the bug populations grow too much, the stress of dealing with it overwhelms them and then they go quiet as they try to fight it off.

Adding medications and salt and whatnot may kill off some of the bug build-up and give a false impression that it's curing the problem, but as long as the source of it (the TDS) is still there for the bugs etc to feed off and grow, the problem will continue.

My recommendation is to do a 90% water change. Use some of the tank water to rinse the filter media clean of any brown gunk and mulm buildup. And gravel-vac the tank bottom thoroughly. Call it a spring clean if you will! Your tank is cycling anyway right now, so you may as well be thorough. Take the tank water level down as far as it can go until it's literally touching the fishes' backs, and then re-fill with fresh clean water. Add the first batch of new water slowly as it will be the biggest percentage change when mixed in with the small amount of existing tankwater (just in case there's a pH or temp difference between old and new water). Subsequent fresh water can be added faster, as with each addition a smaller percentage change occurs as the volume of water in the tank increases.

Then do another 90% water change within the next day or two. This will reduce your water's TDS, bad bug population and toxin levels down to 5% of what they are now. The only way to get it any closer to the ideal 0% is a 100% water change.

Then at least 60-70% regular weekly water change thereafter to keep it down. Way down. If you're currently doing 10-40% weekly, then that simply isn't enough as evidenced by the problems you're encountering at the moment.

I know my advice sounds extremely radical and there's no mention of using any medications, just lots of clean fresh water, but hey, it does sound logical doesn't it? Good luck!

PS. Keep the salt at 1 part per thousand (0.1%?) as long as you have nitrite readings while your tank is still cycling to protect the fish against the harmful effects of the nitrite.

I just read your other thread where you wrote that you did a 70% water change four days ago after the maracyn treatment. A good start!

Awrieger:
Hi..thanks for your post. Since I established my 46 gallon tank in September, 05, I have always done weekly water changes, religiously - at about 70% - so now I am really confused. !! I am going to do what you say and change out 90% of the water tomorrow, then wait one day and do another 90% change - since I stopped the Maracyn I did 70%, did not like the looks of the water and one day later did 90% - all my fishies seem very happy, they swim and greet me at the front of the tank, etc., EXCEPT my little one who isolates nose down. I just don't know what is going on with her. She isn't always nose down, when she sees me she swims and hangs out, etc., but I don't know..it's so confusing. I will try and change the water as you suggested and see how she responds, but I am beginning to think she is going to be this way always - honestly, I have been dealing with her like this now since early May when she became constipated..the fasting and peas and epsom salt seemed to help but she still points nose down. By the way, I went bare bottom in the last month so I have no gravel now - I figured with the possibility of parasites, etc., I didn't want to give them anywhere to hideout in the gravel once I started treating the tank..

So what do you think now? Do you think my test kit is off? I know water quality is a key factor, how can I be sure my water is all right?

Ah, okay, removing the gravel explains the cycle you're going through right now! I just assumed you were doing smaller water changes so my apologies for that, but no need to be confused though. The solids and wastes can still build up in gravel and filters to feed Aeromona bacteria regardless of the amount of water changes anyway (which only really keeps the bacteria in check up to a point, without dealing with the source of the problem), and hence you saw the bacteria reach the critical point after six months with the onset of the finrot and the nose standing.

You've fixed the problem by removing the gravel so it should be okay from now on. Just be sure to treat the filter/s the same way by lightly rinsing them frequently (using tank water) to clear them of all the brown gunk build-up. Brown gunk is Aeromona bacteria food, and Aeromona reproduce so fast they can quickly reach a population level where they overwhelm the fishes' natural immunity and start eating the fish instead, and so we get finrot and wen ulcers and whatnot.

Medications and whatnot can temporarily kill off the Aeromona and hence fix finrot, but it's only temporary if the food source remains as the Aeromona can double their population every 15 minutes so can quickly come back again in large numbers if their source isn't dealt with (a simple gravel-vac can put a huge dent in their plans for world tank domination!). But you've already dealt with the source, so bravo!

So if your small one started going nose down in May before you removed the gravel, it's the result of the previous tank conditions and not a symptom of the current tank conditions as you've already done basically all you can do to remedy the cause. She'll likely be like that for a while before (or if) she can recover permanently so there's really nothing else you can or should do now except keep the water as clean as possible to give her the best healing environment and she'll do the rest herself. Without the gravel now you can easily just siphon off any poop and brown gunk buildup you can see when you do your regular water changes so everything should be fine from now on. Just add Prime to keep any ammonia detoxified, and salt to do the same with nitrites while your tank is still cycling.

PS. You shouldn't think you have parasites unless all the fish were affected, which isn't the case. It's only your little one showing signs from the previous tank conditions, and as you've rectified that there's no need for any more medications.

PPS. If you're worried about your test kits, you can test your ammonia and pH test kits by using s drop of household ammonia and a drop of vinegar. If both test results go off the charts (one extremely high, the other extremely low), you know they're working! If you're also a gardener and have access to any fertilizer with nitrate listed in its ingredients (eg potassium nitrate), you can mix a bit of it in water and that should also send your nitrate test kit off the charts dark red to let you know it's working too. I can't think of any ways to test a nitrite kit at the moment, sorry!

Thanks so much..now..about the gunk on my filter - I have three filters, two Penguin 200s and a Penguin 150 - all spread out - How often do I actually change the cartridges? I heard on the board that the carbon in the cartridges is really only good for about seven days anyways...do I just rinse them weekly when I do my water changes? Do I change them weekly? Also, I do have extra media in the 200s - those ceramic rings - lots of them, do I rinse those too in tank water weekly or leave them alone? What about the bio wheel, I don't rinse that, right?

I have no experience with Penguin cartridges or bio wheels, so I can't give any advice about them sorry.

With the ceramic rings or any general bio-media though, you only really need to rinse them if they are being covered in gunk or detritus which blocks O2 oxygen from reaching the biobugs. The key is to maintain good access for the bugs to the oxygen in the water (the bugs need O2 to convert NH ammonia to NO2 nitrite, so with less access to O2 they work less efficiently), so it's good to keep them clear of any solids blocking off the O2. Being over-zealous though and rinsing them constantly risks washing away too many beneficial bugs faster than they can reproduce, so only do it when they look like they're getting dirtied up and just rinse lightly enough to wash off the obvious gunk.

I believe a bio wheel allows the bugs to access the richer O2 straight from the air rather than from the water (like how a trickle filter works), but the principle is the same in not allowing them to get covered too much by solid wastes which blocks the O2.

As for charcoal/carbon, I rinse mine out weekly and change monthly which seems to work for me.

Ok..thanks. I have been working on keeping the water as good as I can - we did another 90% water change yesterday..everything tests ok as far as params..so we will see...this morning, my little isolating fish was actually swimming around!

let me ask you something...is stringy white poop a water quality issue? This one fish always has stringy poop, and I have another who has it on occasion..

Excellent news!

I'd say yes, usually it is, because it means it's an intestinal bacterial infection, and the bacteria is the naturally always-present kind that the fish can otherwise normally deal with. They get these sort of infections either mainly because toxins build-up to stress the fish and lower their immunity to bacteria they would normally be able to fight off, or the bacteria levels themselves build up and overwhelms the fish's natural immunity to them. So either way it's the water. In good water, white stringy poop shouldn't really happen unless something drastic happens, ie a disease, parasite or toxin (eg chlorine during a water change) is introduced or there's a radical change in conditions which stresses them out like a sudden pH or temperature swing etc.

Ok..well so far I (knock on wood) all my fishies are active and appear "healthy" since I put the Parasite Clear - I am checking the water params, etc. I have not seen them poop lately, HOWEVER, since I have a barebottom tank now, I see poop and it is NOT white or stringy, looks mostly food colored right now..keeping my fingers crossed...thanks!

Hi there - I am so glad to hear that your fish seem to be doing better- it gives me hope for mine! I lost track did you ever treat with the Prazi or just use the PC? What kind of food are they on now? I am still trying to figure out the best food plan to help with the constipation/SBD my fish have had for so long (but right now mine are on metromed). Good luck for continued improvement

Hi Sea...I feeding my fish Pro Gold and Spirulina. I also try to fast them two days and feed peas until they poop green if I see any signs of SBD - my one fish has permanent damage, she swims kind of lopsided, but that's what I do.
I ended up just using Parasite Clear, not the full strength Prazi. My little fish responded quickly to that. It's weird to see her swimming (lopsided albeit) around all the time, she sat and isolated for so long. I only hope I got rid of whatever it was I was fighting! It's nervewracking I tell you!

I think what I learned from all this is that the water is really the key. If the water is not pristine you have nothing but problems...and keeping it that way is very hard work and requires a lot of dedication. Good luck!

Glad the little guy is doing better!

Parasite Clear is my med of chice as well (especially after my fish seemed to react badly to the Prazi) and I am glad it worked for you. About the Progold - are you soaking it now? Are Spirulina (never heard of this) flakes or pellets and are they availalbe at lfs or need to be special ordered? I started metromed 2 days ago and the poops loook a little better. Instead of 100% colorless with air bubbles they are now ~80% colorless with a little brown appearing ~20% time. And no more upsidedown fish which really freaked me out. After the metromed I will need to come up with a good plan for food hence all the questions for you! Thanks.

Hi Sea: I got the Spirulina from Rick at Goldfish Connection - I read about it on this board, and it is supposed to help with constipation and floating fish:

http://www.goldfishconnection.com/shop/det...Id=127&catId=14

My fish love them! They are these green flakes - I do soak them. Also, I've been told that Pro Gold does NOT need to be soaked. However, I remember reading on the board that some feel it should - There position was that when you put the pro gold in the water although it sinks you can actually see "bubbles" coming off it while it is sinking - the person said that was air, and hence if your fish eats it that way, it can add to the SBD problems..I soak mine - I guess because I am so paranoid - I have that one floaty fish and I just try to soak everything to make it easier for her...


You know, Awrieger made some good points in this post about water quality and brown gunk and what it can do to fish..do you make sure your filters are clean of brown gunk and do regular water changes, etc.? I thought I was doing a great job until I realized that I neglected to clean part of my intake tubes...!! It's so much work keeping these little guys, isn't it?
Let me know how your fish is!

Thanks for your response and for guilting me into action

I am very vigilent about water changes and testing (at least 3x/week since my fish seem off these days) but I can't remember the last time I actually took everything apart and cleaned out the intake valves, etc. Suffice it to say it is on my "to do" list for this weekend.

Actually I found some spirulina flakes that I had from a couple years ago. I had stopped feeding them to my fish after reading that it is better to give pellets instead of floating flakes (ironic though I never had constipation/SBD issues with the flakes). I wonder if they are still good? I am going to continue with the metromed for the 2 weeks, then switch to jumpstart for a couple weeks and then most likely start a combo of soaked progold, peas and the spirulina flakes. Sound reasonable?

Have a nice weekend, sea

Hi Sea..you too! I am kind of sad right now because my little fishie is back to being sickly again - I just don't know what more to do! She can't just float and relax, she is constantly struggling to swim, and she is sideways and upside down and miserable looking! I am so depressed because I've tried everything to get her well, and between the Parasite Clear, Medigold, Maracyns 1 and II and water changes (including thoroughly cleaning my filters, intake tubes, etc.) I really thought I had a handle on things - water is testing good, my Penguin 200s have extra media with beneficial bugs, and still, one sickly fish! I am lost...

Oh, I am really sorry to hear that - I so hoped you had it beat. I can certainly commiserate though as that is also what I am seeing. What does her poop look like?

It's stringy and white, sometimes with bubbles, sometimes not. Daryl seems to think that she has had these issues for so long that it may be a very nasty bacteria and likely will have permanent damage...It's HORRIBLE. Right now, she is at the bottom of the tank completely parallel to the intake tub - nose down. It's horrible. I feel so bad for this fish. She looks miserable. Daryl told me to try and find a stronger antibiotic and to remove her from the tank and but I don't have any "hospital tank" right now so I have to take care of that...I jus got done fasting the whole tank 48 hours and I gave them peas tonight. She swam around a little after she had the pea ended up right back at the intake tube. I am so worried, and it is really sad to see her like that! I think she actually would be happier in a tank with less water if that makes sense...maybe that would make her feel less floaty - my husband thinks she is at the intake tube because she tires herself out trying to swim, etc. and the tube helps anchor her down ..I don't know..let me know if you have any new ideas.

Oh, newfishmom, that sounds so sad. I am sad now as well since while I have been worried about my gf with constipation/sbd one of my ADF that I have had for over a year just died

I wish I could offer advice but it seems to me that you have tried everything you can. The only thought I have is to ask you if you used anything like JumpStart after you used the medicated food. It is from gf connection and is supposed to help their digestive track by replacing the good bacteria that are lost when the fish has been on med food for awhile. I am not sure if it will help though.

My fish also shows colorless, stringy poop with air bubbles most of the time and I have tried most everything as well. Now he is on metromed and I see some brown poop but again mostly the colorless stuff. He is sometimes floaty (once horribly so that I thought he was dead) and sometimes ok. It is really a fine line between feeding/fasting/treating and so hard to know what is right to do at any one time. I wish you and your fish my best .
Keep me posted.

--sea

Thanks Sea. Daryl says that there is something that is blocked in her, and we have to purge it - whether it was SBD or bacterial. It doesn't look good. I will try the Jumpstart, I'll try anything. Does your fish with SBD float most of the time or no?

I agree with Daryl, who will have the best advice for you regarding dealing with an intestinal infection. I would have assumed a month on Medigold would have dealt with the original infection, but she could still have it. Or even if the first one's gone, it may have caused chronic damage to something inside her so she could now have a secondary infection from the stress of struggling to swim. Either way, keep up the antibiotic food (and ignore what I said!). Short of getting a vet's injection, antibiotic food is the best way to get the antibiotics inside her where they're needed.

Is she actually in contact with the filter intake, being pulled up against it? That's a sign of exhaustion, so I'm afraid this is not a good sign for survival as she's giving up the struggle as her body's running out of energy to both swim and fight the infection as well. I would recommend trying to keep her away from the intake as it may damage her skin and fins due to the force of the suction and water movement (which will just create another problem to deal with).

You've done all you can and have done really well to improve her environment and your other fish are fine, so there's really not much else you can do now for her now but keep up with the antibiotic food and wait and see. I really hope she comes through this for you.

If only I had read your post earlier! She was stuck on the intake tube, and now she is raw on her underbelly from it - I had extended the tubes and what you said would happen did! I should have thought of it! I am so angry at myself! I took the extension tubes off and now they are much higher, so she is resting more comfortably at the bottom. I am going to keep up the medicated food and just pray. It's so sad.

Anything I should do for the irritated part of her little belly? Should I salt my tank? When, Awrieger, will I know that it is time to stop trying to save her and to end her suffering? How do I know? She looks so miserable. I feel horrible!

Is she resting horizontally or still nose down now? As long as she's not flipped upside down and floating there's still a chance she may recover, so you can stay hopeful as long as she's still eating.

I think she'll decide for herself when it's time for her to give up the fight, which will save you the trauma of having to decide. You'll know when that time is soon as she will stop eating and become sort of dazed and non-responsive. But up until then you can stay hopeful as long as she's still eating and still relatively the right way up, there's still a chance she'll pull through this even if it's not back to 100%.

A bit of salt (0.05-0.1%) will help prevent the damaged skin from getting infected. It should heal quickly within a few days if all goes well. With luck, the salt may even help with the intestinal infection as well.

Hi Awrieger, since I moved the intake tube she moves around more. When she rests she is nose down, but whenever she see me, she swims (albeit awkwardly) over and she eats just fine..I am getting ready to do the "bucket to bucket" method that I read about with Ranchu Girl - then, I am going to feed her Medigold - at this point, I am trying to figure out what the best water treatment for her would be or if I should just do medicated food...I don't know how much good Maracyns will do with a nasty internal bacterial infection..Daryl recommended Furan2, so I am thinking of trying that...