Hi, I am new to the boards, my name is Laura (23 from England). *waves at everybody*

I have a problem. I am reasonably new to this keeping fish lark. I got my first fish a couple of months ago. I have 2 goldfish, 1 red and white oranda, and 4 white cloud minnows.

Yesterday and today all 7 of them are showing odd signs of being unwell. The top fin on both of my goldfish has gone flat, instead of sticking up happily when they swim along. They both seem to lie on the bottom of the tank a lot and one of them tends to go mad now and again, by swimming extremely fast up and down the tank like a caged lion! The oranda, has white speckily dots on his fancy fins at the back, and his top fin also seems to have been quite flat the last couple of days. And my 4 minnows all have lumps by their eyes, that look like they are blood blisters or something.

I am really worried about my fish, and I am dreading waking up to find them all dead. I take ever such good care of them, and there tank is always very clean. Well, as far as I know I am doing everything I should be.

I know I have been asked to answer the questions, but I don't know how to test for nitrate and ph etc... Although I do use tap safe and part change the water every week. There are 7 fish, they are all fairly small, I feed them normal fish pellets, and my tank is 18x10x10 inches.

I hope somebody has some advice for me

Hey there! Welcome to the board! There are a lot of experts on here who will be able to give you some good advice, and help your fishies make it through! I am far from being an expert, but I can give you some help.
First off, it sounds like you have a 10 gallon aquarium, or somewhere around there...which means you're a little overstocked. Unfortunately, the general rule of thumb in 10 gallons a goldfish (though this is obviously slightly lower for smaller fish and higher for really big fish). Basically that means that you're going to have to work really hard to get the water quality back to perfect (sounds to me like your nitrites and ammonia may be high...this happens when a tank is not cycled *see info about cycling at the left hand side of the page*, and there is a lot of fish waste build up). Goldfish are messy little buggers, and produce a lot of waste, even if you change a certain percent of the water every week, the waste can still build up (especially if the tank is uncycled, because then you lack the good bacteria that breaks down the waste). Anyways, you'll need to think of maybe getting a second tank, or even just a big tub, to move some of the fish into..until then, you can just make sure to change about 40% of the water everyday, until you can get the ammonia and nitrites down the 0 (you'll probably want to invest in some water testers...at least for ammonia, nitrite and pH...personally, I feel their worth every penny). The spots that you are noticing is Ick, and is caused by the fish being stressed (due to bad water conditions, temperature fluctuations, and so on), this can be treated for fairly easily with many of the Ick Medications you can buy at the petstore (RidIch is supposed to be good...as well as Quick Cure). The clamped fins and "flashing" (fish swimming wildly) is also caused by the water conditions (high nitrite and ammonia).
So anyways, I hope this helps a bit. Until you can try and find some more space for the fish, just keep up with the daily water changes, until the water is perfect (you may want to add some salt too). And then start treating the Ick once the water is in better shape.
Good luck!

Your oranda sounds like he may have ich.

What are your tank perameters?( ammonina, nitrite, Nitrates?

I guess I should also mention that the fins are "flat" or "clamped" because the fish are stressed...also caused by the water.

If you have any more questions, don't be afraid to ask!

This really upsets me. So in theory I should only have one or two goldfish in there? When I bought the tank, I asked them how many I was allowed, and they told me around 5-7, that is why I have that many. I only really think that 3 of them take up the room as well, because the minnows are so small. I am sad that I have caused them upset and distress
By the way, I do have an air pump and a filter system, and the water always looks really clean, this is why it is a shock to hear the water is in bad condition.



I would love a second tank or a bigger tank, it is money that is the problem at the moment. I spent all my money on the set up I have now! But I am desperate to make them happy. I will have to talk to my boyf about this one. I will definately get one of those water testers too.



Ok, the Ick sounds easy to cure, but, why to I have high nitrite and ammonia? Is this just because of all the fish waste? Because my tank is cycled.



Thanks very much for taking the time out to help me. I am a big animal lover, and I do get very worried and upset, if they may be ill or I am doing something wrong.

I will let you know how I get on with everything.

Hi Laura, I'm also from England (don't think there ar emany of us here!)

I just worked it out and unfortunately your tank isn't even 10 gallons. It's 6.5 Uk gallons so isn't even big enough for 1 goldfish. Fish shops give absolutely terrible advice here and in the US, partially due to ignorance, and mainly (I expect) due to wanting to make a few extra quid. They bank on the fact that they'll sell you this teeny aquarium, you'll overfill it with fish, they'll either get ill and die (so you'll go back and buy more!), or, you'll relaise in a few months how overcrowded they are and go back and buy a bigger set up. Either way they make extra money.
Your main priority here should be water quality. Without excellent water quality your fish wont stand a chance, so start immediate 50% water changes daily (with temperature matched and dechlorinated water). Buy yourself a gravel vacuum (only a couple of pounds) and clean the gravel thoroughly with it with every water change. You'll be amazed at what it sucks out. Unfortunately in such an overstocked tank you will almost certainly need to carry on these 50% daily changes for good, or until you get a bigger set up. You also need to treat the ich (if you are positive this is what they have - if the white spots look like grains of salt or sugar then I expect it is) pretty quickly before it gets too bad. I can recommend Interpet's anti white spot plus for this. It works really well and quickly too. You'll be able to get it at most fish shops. Add how much it says on the bottle as soon as you get it, but remember that as you will be doing daily water changes you will be diluting the medication so will need to add enough to cover the new water added to the tank each day as well.
The ich will take a week to treat, then you will need to wait for a week after before you can treat with anything else.
You know the minnows eyes? Do they look like they have fluid filled bagels around them? If so then they have pop-eye which is caused by a severe internla infection brought on by poor water quality. Hopefully the water changes will releive the pressure on their eyes a bit, but as you need tot reat for ich any meds for this will have to wait. You can treat for it next with Interpets Anti internal bacteria med which is also very good.
Although you will be treating with meds, water qulaity should be your main concern so you should buy test kits if you can. Aquarium pharmaceuticals (A.P.I)do a liquid master test kit with everything you need in it except nitrate (which you can do without for now but should get at a later date) and it is very accurate and will last absolutely ages. As soon as you get them test your water and post your results here so we can help. Hopefully with the daily water changes untilt hen they wont be too horrific!
By the way, if you struggle where you are for decent aquatic supplies shops then this website is good (I order all my stuff from them) http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/acatalog/index.html.
They sell the test kit for £14.99 which is a pretty good price.
What sort of filter do you have? It is important when keeping goldfish to have a very good one because they get so big and messy.
The oly other thing you can do, as well as what I have said above, is to feed the fish a very highly nutritous diet. This wil give them the energy they need to fight their afflictions and hopefully make a full recovery. Get a high protein sinking food if you can as these are gernally best, although if you can't get hold of one, Tetra make one called Gold Medal which although it's a floating one (not usually recommended) is very good and I've fed it to my fish on a number of occasions with very good effects.
Good luck and shout if you ahve any questions please

I agree with most of the advice you've been given so far - the only thing I'd add is that you should feed sparingly (every other day or every few days, and only a small amount) until you're sure your tank is cycled and your water quality is good. More food = more waste, and your fish don't need that in their environment while your water quality is presently undetermined and your fish are in need of treatment.

If you can't afford a new tank, a plastic storage tub (like a rubbermaid tub or the like - do you have rubbermaid tubs over there?) would do quite nicely and give you some time to save up. You could try getting a refund on the tank with a little rant about how they gave you the wrong information - the effectiveness of that will depend upon the shop.

It's obvious you care about the well being of your pets, and that's a great first step towards becoming a good fishkeeper.

Best of luck.

argggh that is so annoying! It should be illegal for them to even sell these small tanks! In the particular shop I got the tank from, it was the biggest one there! So there are even smaller ones, that people are buying and therefore there are a lot of goldfish out there suffering! That makes me really sad. Since then though I have been buying other products from a proper fish shop, and they are a lot better, but obviously still not good enough, because they know how many fish I have and they haven't told me it is wrong either. By the way, how are all you people on this board so knowledgable? I mean, I know you learn from each other, but where did the rules about fish tank sizes per fish come from in the first place? If all pet shops seem to be giving bad advice.



I have had a gravel pump thing for a while, which I use when I part change the water (syphon). It is very good and takes a lot of waste out. Is a vacuum something different? Or is it the same thing as what I already have?



The spots don't seem to be getting any worse at the moment, but they are still there.



I looked again, and it is where their gills are by their eyes, they look all red and sore, and I am not sure, but I think they might be bleeding slightly, or just inflammed.



I looked on that website, and I couldn't see a test kit for £14.99. Do you have a direct page link at all? I find it quite hard to browse that website.



My filter has a foam thing on the end which collects the dirt. It is connected to a tube, which is connected with my air pump.



Thanks to all of you on this board for your advice so far. I do have a further question though. I am going to look at buying a tank this afternoon, and probably tomorrow as it is so late in the day now. What size tank would you recommend? Because I don't want to be wasting my money again. The way your answers read here, I should be getting a tank about 8 times bigger than what I have now! That seems awfully big for just a few fish. But if they need to be in 10 gallons each! I don't know. I suppose I could keep my minnows in the tank I have now, and just put the other 3 fish in a bigger tank. But even then, would my tank be too small for the minnows? Even though they are so tiny. I have 2 goldfish and the 1 fancy fish. I also only have limited space. I would like to put a new bigger tank where I have the one currently, on my lounge shelving unit, but I am guessing that bigger tanks have to be on a proper stand. Do you think my shelving unit could take it? Because if I have to have a tank with a stand, I have no spare room for it at all, all my walls are full up! I am in such a state about this.

I hope somebody has some advice for me, sorry to be a pain.
Thanks again
Laura
xxx

rubbermaid tub, I haven't a clue what that is! So I am guessing we don't have them here. We probably do have something to the equivelent of it though, I will do a search on a picture of one.

Talking of pictures, I have a photo of how my fish tank looks now, so I would like to show it you all, but I am not sure if this link will show you, because geocities doesn't like being used for file storage.

Laura's Fish Tank



This was taken just before I got the fancy fish (who is the same size as my goldfish) so you can get a rough idea of my set up. It is 18"x10"x10".

Here's a direct link to the API test kit http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/acatalog/...t_Kits_173.html

You'll need to scroll down the page a bit and look for the API Freshwater Master Liquid Test Kit for £14.99.

I think your minnows would be fine in your existing tank as they stay pretty small. 10 US gallons per goldfish is recommended, and 10 US gallons equates to 8 UK gallons so you'd need to look for a 16 gallon or 72 litres minimum for 2 goldies. I wouldnt' put a tank that size on a shelving unit just in case. they weigh a heck of a lot and it would be just awful to come home one day to find your tank smashed and your fish stuck in the carpet. A sturdy chest of drawers would probably be ok, but the best bet would be to buy a stand. You can get metal ones fairly cheaply, or nicer ones for a bit more. I have a couple of Juwel tanks and these come with stands under them. Have you got a spare corner somewhere? You can buy lovely corner tanks now and this might solve your lack of wall problem.

Yay!!!!! Good news! After many arguments and discussions, my boyfriend bought me an early Christmas present!!

I now have a 48x12x15 tank! It holds 135 litres.

I have already filled it with the gravel and some plastic plants. I am just waiting now for the tank to settle. I have left it 24 hours now, and it is still really white looking in there. How long are you supposed to leave it before you introduce your fish to it? I am interested to know the rules here, even though I haven't got everything I need yet. I have added these things to my basket on that website you gave me:

API Freshwater Master Liquid Test Kit 1 £14.99
Clear-Jet 3 Internal Power Filter 1 £12.99
Interpet AP 3 Air Pump 1 £15.99
Convertagear 36/40w 1 £10.75
Air Curtain 35 ins. 1 £6.85
Standard Airline 3 £0.30 £0.90
Subtotal: £62.47

Do you think those filters and air pumps are ok? One more thing I would like some help with if possible? Is, if that light starter kit is the right one to use, what tube do I buy for it? Because the ones I have looked at on that website, I think are for tropical fish, and I obviously don't want one that gives off a lot of heat. So can your recommend one to me?

I can't wait for my tank to be ready so my fish can be happy again!

It is like a time bomb waiting to go off. Everyday I see them getting worse and worse, even though I have been doing the 50% water changes. The ick on the oranda isn't too bad, but one of the goldfish (the one who does the flashing across the tank the most), is absolutley covered in the stuff. And today, all of my fish are hovering at the top of the tank, so I really want to get them in the tank as soon as I can. When the tank is settled, do you think it would be ok to put them in the new tank, with my current small filter and air pump, until I get the new bigger stuff? Or would it be better to keep them where they are?

Sorry for all the questions, I am just so desperate to get them sorted out, before they die!!

Thanks
Laura
xxx

oh no, I have just been watching my fish hovering near the top of the water and my oranda seems to be very bent! His tail leans to the left, practically in a U shape. Is there anything I can do for this? Or is this just the same as all my other problems?

Great news about the new tank. I bet you're over the moon!

As for your fish, have you treated them with any medication for the ich? If not then you really need to and soon or it will be too late. The INterpet ich med is good and is generally widely available. Don't order it online though as you need it a.s.a.p and if you wait it might be too late. While you're medicating try to get some extra aeration in there as meds tend to deplete the oxygen supply a bit.

As for the other stuff you've ordered. If it's not too late, I'd go for the slightly bigger Clear Jet filter (Clear Jet 4). It's only £2 more expensive and it will do a much better job at keeping your water tip top. With goldfish it's always best to have as much filtration as you possibly can so don't worry that it will be too much. They'll love it and your tank will be spotless.

As for the bulb, it doesn't matter if it says it's for tropical fish, just don't get one for a marine tank. They don't give off any more heat, they just tend to show the tropical fishes colours off better than a standard one. The Arcadia original tropical lamp would be fine (under Arcadia T5 Fluorescent Lighting ). I use the Gro lux lights because I like to have lots of plants but my husband has the arcadia ones and they are fine.
The filter you have chosen says it has an air venturi system. These suck in oxygen and blow it out through loads of bubbles in your water. I've never had a clear jet filter so don't know how well these work, but usually they are pretty good and you might not need the air curtain but thats up to you ( it would look pretty though).
While you're adding to your shopping list, if you don't have one already, get yourself a gravel vacuum (under aquarium cleaning). they are only a couple of pounds and are well worth the money. I use the Lee's one and it is good value for money and works well.

I'd get the fish in their new tank as soon as you can as the better water quality will certainly help them. Use your existing filter for now, and leave it in there for about a month after the new filter goes in too as this will allow the transfer of the good bio-bugs and will speed your cycle up a bit. When you move the fish make sure the temps in the 2 tanks are fairly similar and bag them up and float them for about half an hour before letting them go. Once they are in there you'll have a bout a week before you get any traces of ammonia so treat for the ich right away then you wont have to worry about water changes diluting the medicine. Keep the lights out, and if you have a heater turn the temp up to 80 as this will speed up the life cycle of the ich and so get rid of it quicker. Once the treatment is finshed you will have to keep testing your water regularly as there will be an ammonia and nitrite spike and you will need to do daily 30% water changes to dilute it.

Good luck and please let me know how the fish are doing. Just ask if you ahve any more questions

Monkey, you say the water in your new tank looks white? Did you rinse the gravel before putting it in? Don't put your fish in the new tank until you figure out why the water is white and correct the problem - it should not be white.

If you don't have any ich medicine on hand, or can't get any without ordering it (ordering = waiting), salt will also work. I always use .6% (6 T per 5 gal) but I know others who use .3%. Aquarium salt, canning salt, solar salt, kosher salt, even table salt are all fine for this purpose, just be sure the salt does not contain any anti-caking agents (check the label). Iodized salt is alright. Add more salt to replace the salt you remove with water changes (if you change 20% of your water, add back 20% of your original salt doseage) and keep up this concentration for about 10-14 days.

Thanks for all your help fishyfan, yes I am over the moon! We managed to clear a draw unit thing that I have in the lounge so the new tank is on there.

I do already own a gravel pump yes, and I have ordered all the other stuff now.

My fish are also in their new tank already. I had to put them in there before the reply on here, because I really thought they were dying. The minnows certainly looked dead, they were floating lifelessly and they were all bent. So I took the risk that it was the best idea to move them, so I did. And they have come back to life again now!

Before I put them in the tank. I added Tonic Salt (for aquariums, which should hopefully help the ich too), the tap safe stuff and some treatment for Ich, which is a blue liquid! I need to do the ich treament every 48 hours until the spots have gone, and then 48 hours after they have gone. They have been in there for about 12 hours now, and there is no signs of any of the spots going yet. Their fins aren't quite so clamped anymore, but occasionally they do pin them right back again!

Yesterday I spent a lot of time reading through these boards for advice, and I saw that somebody was talking about fish sleeping. I really didn't think that they did that. But now, that might explain why sometimes the 2 goldies seem to cuddle up in a corner on the floor and stay still? Or do you think actually it is because they are ill? I hope not, because they have been doing it in the new tank too. But they certainly do seem to be swimming around a lot more otherwise.

So when I get my new stuff from that website, I will keep my old filter in for a month. I do not have a heater though to speed the life cycle of the ich up. But once it has gone, I will have to do the water changes until the test kit comes clear yes? Wow, so much to take in! LOL.

Anyway, thanks again for helping me so much. It really is appreciated! I will keep you informed on how they are doing. And hopefully I will be able to show you a picture of my new tank soon.

Thanks happygoldfish. Yes, I already added the salt before, because I read somewhere else on these boards that it was a good idea.

I did clean the gravel very thorougly before adding it to the tank. But I have read in many places that new tank syndrome means that your tank can look white, due to everything settling I think, and maybe something to do with the salt? I don't know. But my old tank went white for a few days too when I got that.

But anyway, someone said on these boards, that is wasn't harmful to the fish, when the tank went cloudy like that, it is just because it is new. But I have had it in place for 2 days now, and it getting much clearer now.

Btw, I have been fasincated by your avatar for a few days now. Is that your fish? It looks to have lovely markings. Do you have a bigger picture of it that you could show me?

Usually the cloudiness in new tanks is due to the biological filter starting up. This can't be the case with your tank, though, since (unless I'm missing something) there is no ammonia source. If it's getting clearer, though, that's a good thing! And since you experienced this before without problems, we won't worry about it.

How much salt are you using? What is the name of the ich product you are using and/or what meds does it contain?

---------------------------

Yes that is my fish. I am not at home right now, but if you give me your email address (you can PM it to me if you like) I can send you a larger picture later on today.