I'm having trouble with my goldfish and have been testing and trying things for about a month. The symptoms shown are pop eye, some puffiness around the eyes, and a tendency to rest on the rocks at the bottom of the tank. This happened to another fish in the tank, and although we treated with Maracyn 2, the fish developed a red spot on the abdomin and finally died. The other fish in the tank have begun to show early stage symptoms, but still swim around actively a significant amount of the time. No red spots yet.

I have a 12 gallon tank with 3 remaining fancy tailed goldfish. I do a 20% change weekly. I tested for ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, ph, hardness and temperature (all seem fine). One problem we have is a major algae breakout in the water (after we left the light on 24 hours one day) which we can't seem to reduce, but from what I read, this shouldn't cause problems.

Can anyone please advise me on what to do? We've put the fish on five days of maracyn 2 but it didn't really change anything. Bottom line is the medication isn't doing it and I cannot find anything wrong with the water. I'm looking for any new suggestions.

Hi and welcome to the board!

It would be helpful if you could answer the questions in the red box at the top of the page, so that we can do a better job of helping you out.

Based on what you have said in your post, I would guess that the problem you are having with your fish is due to poor water quality. What exactly are your test readings for ammonia, nitrite, nitrates and ph? You should have zero ammonia, zero nitrite and nitrates under 20 ppm. Even if these readings check out O.K., you can still have "bad" bacteria in your water that can cause infection in your fish. Red spots and/or sores and popeye are usually a sign of bacterial infection. The reason your water quality is probably not as high as it should be is the number of fish you have in your tank. The recommended MINIMUM amount of space is 10 gallons per goldfish. If you have three fish left in your 12 gallon tank, that means that you were very seriously overstocked prior to losing some fish. You are still over stocked, but you can improve things by changing your water more often. If it were my tank, I would do a very large water change, about 50% of the water, along with a very thorough gravel vacuuming. I would then change about 20% of the water every couple of days. Of course you need to use declorinator in your water, and try to match the temp of the water to that already in your tank.

You are really going to need a bigger tank if you want your fish to thrive. Many people on this board use large rubbermaid storage tubs and put a hang-on filter and and air stone in them as a cheap alternative to a larger tank.

Hope this helps! If you can post more information, we can do a better job of diagnosing the problem!

Laura

Not sure on the exact readings (all my test kits aren't with me), but I all I do know is that everything fell into the "safe" category on the test kits. When I purchased the fish originally, they said leave 3 gallons for each fish, so we had 4 fish in a 12 gallon tank. We can do more significant/frequent water changes if you think that will help. We do the declorination on each change, and try to match to temperature as best we can.

How can we cleanse the tank of the unwanted bacteria? We have one of the biowheels in the tank, so is it possible this is just creating more and more negative bacteria?

I guess I can answer some of the questions. Not sure on the first four, but just know it was "safe." We feed the fish flakes (although we have fed a pea two or three times when one had a swim bladder issue). Thre are 3 fish, 12 gallons. We have at one point noticed a stringy thin white bead like substance on one of the fish, but it is gone. (we noticed something similar on the fish that died). Tank has been running for about 3 months. Change the water weekly, 20%, although we have begun a biweekly schedule in hopes of reducing the algae. We have a filtration and biowheel system. We have added Maracyn 2 to the tank for two separate 5 day periods (once for the fish that died, and once trying to help the current fish). All fish in the tank were together since the beginning of the tank. Unusual behavior is just that two of the fish have been lying at the bottom more, but still swim around actively other times. All three fish are showing pop eye and a little puffiness.

How long has your tank been set up?
The problems are almost certainly caused by poor water quality as you were and still are very overstocked. In a 10 gallon tank with 1 goldfish it is necessary to do a minimim of a 30% water change weekly, so in your tank you need to be doing much more than that. I'd say 30% every other day minimum. For now though, during the period they are ill, I'd start daily 30% changes as nice fresh water will make the world of difference (don't forget to temp match it and use dechlorinator).
I should imagine that the fish are suffering from some kind of internal infection which will need treating (I'm in the Uk so cant recommend any treatment), but before you worry about that is is very important to get your water quality impeccable. Without this your fish don't have much of a chance. As said before, ammonia should be 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate under 20. Anything over these figures is not safe. The only way tto lower them is with regular water changes as I have suggested. I would also advise that you get a gravel vaccum and use this with every water change. it will help make your water cleaner and so improve things for your fish.

I highly recommend MelaFix, an highly effective anti-baterial remedy for marine and fresh water fish. Your fish are probably suffering from bacterial and parasitic infections and MelaFix in conjunction with aquarium salt will greatly improve your fishes chances for survival, your neares pet store should have MelaFix, the only medicine I depend on for bacterial infections.

I'll increase the number of water changes, but as I said before, all the tests I do come out fine. I do a minor gravel cleaning with every water change, too, so I'm really baffled. It would make sense that there is something in the water not good, but why would none of the tests show anything?

The only thing that seems wrong with the water is the algae throughout it, but that shouldn't hurt the fish. Is there any other possibilities?

You have to remember that just because your test kit reads "safe" it doesn't necessarily mean that the levels of ammonia and nitrite are zero. Goldfish can be very sensitive to even a slight spike in the levels, especially the fancier ones. Maybe you could bring your water to your local petstore and have them check it. Just be sure to get the actual readings, in parts per million, and post them here, don't just let them tell you they are fine. Unfortunately, a lot of pet stores don't give out accurate information on caring for goldfish. But, there is LOTS of information on this board!

As far as the gravel cleaning, that is most likely your problem. If you don't do a thorough gravel cleaning regularly, all kinds of gunk gets trapped in and under the gravel, and "bad" bacteria can breed there, and cause you problems. Many people on this board don't use gravel at all, they put fairly large "river rocks", which are tumbled stones you can buy at home depot, on the bare bottom of the tank. This eliminates all that junk getting caught in the gravel and makes it easier to keep a clean tank. It is possible that your water readings are fine, and you still have bad bacteria in your tank. It is also possible that your fish have some kind of parasite, or an internal infection, but the first step is to do the water changes, and see if that fixes the problem. If it doesn't then you need to keep posting here, and we'll help you figure out what it is, and what to do next.

I wouldn't put melafix in there right now, I would just do the water changes, and clean the gravel really well. You'll be amazed at how much gunk will come out of there if you really dig the siphon in! You could add a bit of aquarium salt (not table salt), you can use sea salt or kosher salt also, as long as it doesn't contain anti-caking agents. When you do your water changes, remember to replace the salt you took out. I can't remember the correct proportion of salt Anyone else got that info on hand? Don't want to give you wrong info...

Best of luck, keep us updated!

Laura

Alright, i like the thorough gravel cleaning idea. My gravel cleanings have been somewhat "subpar," so I will try a fairly thorough one tonight when I get home and do a water change. I'll keep you posted.

Thank you very much for your help. We really would like to avoid these fish going down a similar path to the other one that died a few weeks ago.

Good luck with your fish Sly, I hope that they are feeling better soon.

Jessica

The correct salt to water ratio as on the back of an Aquarium Salt box is as follows.

1> General tonic and stress reducer: add one rounded tablespoon for every 5 gallons of aquarium water.


I'm using it myself for the first time tonight. It seems people on here swear by it helping the fish, and so does my local pet store. I am very fortunate to have a knowledgeable pet store near by in conjunction with this message board.
Good luck

So I did a 20-30% water change last night and really dug into the gravel for the gravel change. As you suggested, a lot of stuff came up in the gravel cleaning. Looks like it actually had some positive effects on the fish, as the eyes of one of them seem to be slightly less "pop-eyed."

You suggest continuing this daily for some time?

I'd do it daily if it was my fish. The better the water is, the better the fishes chances are at getting over his illness. Just use your gravel vac every day, and do a 25-30% water change with it, trying to keep the gravel scrupulously clean. Do it for a week and see how you get on. After that perhaps reduce them to every other day. Just go by how your fish are loking. Hopefully if you do that they'll be fine and dandy in no time at all!

How much gravel is in your tank? Unless you have an undergravel filter, keep it to a 1/2" or less. In my tanks that contain gravel, the gravel is so sparse that I can see the bottom of the tank if I look at it from the top down. Too much gravel harbors organics and encourages growth of "bad" bacteria.

What are your exact levels of ammonia, nitrite, etc.? If your ammonia and nitrite levels are 0, your nitrates are not significant (around 40 or less) and your pH is 7.0 or above and stable, daily water changes may not be necessary since at these levels it would not be the water causing the problems you're seeing. It is normal to syphon out a fair amount of crud during a weekly gravel vac. If you were not able to syphon all of it out, another gravel vac may be called for. If your gravel bed was especially neglected, removing some of the gravel and washing it thoroughly in plain tap water will help. Disperse the "clean" gravel amongst the "dirty" gravel when you replace it.


Melafix will do nothing to stop bacterial infections. Perfect water, as another poster said, is the best thing you can do for your fish right now. I wouldn't even add salt at this point unless your nitrites are measurable (salt protects fish from nitrites) since the symptoms could be caused by poor water quality alone, and if that is the case here then we need to remedy that first. Additional treatment may be needed, but there's no use adding anything in an attempt to treat if the water quality is poor, so please check your exact levels as soon as you can.

Best of luck.

I'm not sure on exact readings for the different tests since it is a judgement call on the color matching (I use a dipstick for 5 tests and have a separate ammonia test - also color based). As far as I can tell, all ammonia is 0, either nitrite or nitrate (can't remember) is 0 and the other one is is about 20 (probably nitrates since it was "safe").

As for an update, we did another water change (around 20%), cleared out most of the decoration plants to help us do another intense gravel cleaning. Again, just moving the gravel around is bringing up a lot of nasty looking stuff, so I'm thinking we should continue with the daily water change / gravel cleaning at least for a few more days (unless someone thinks this is a bad idea). When the gravel stops releasing a ton of garbage when we clean it, we'll drop to bi-weekly or weekly changes, but thorough cleanings.

One other small note - one of our fish is white, and has always had a slightly faded pink gill. the issue is that we noticed a faint pink marking on its side, near the bad. The fish is still very energetic, sleeps near the bottom (but less than a few days ago since we did the thorough gravel cleaning). Is this something to panic about, or something that hopefully will improve as we improve the gravel/water quality?

If you're having trouble deciphering the test results and you ask a non-"fish person" to match the colors for you (kids are great for this purpose) you can get a better reading. They aren't hoping for your ammonia to be 0, so they're not inclined to think the test tube looks yellow when it's really a pale shade of orange.

The daily water changes and gravel vacs sound like a good idea if you're still getting a good amount of crud out. You didn't mention how much gravel you have in the tank, but again, if it's a significant amount, removing some of it will help keep your gravel bed cleaner.


Near the bad = Near the back? Lighter colored fish sometimes "pink up" when stressed, and all the recent tank maintenance might very well be stressful to your fish. Does the area look physically damaged or just a little pink? If it just looks pinkish, keep an eye on it but right now it doesn't sound like it's anything to worry about or try treating for.

near the bad does equal near the back. fish seems fine and the area doesn't appear damaged. If anything, the fish does appear stressed with the pop-eye and everything, but I'm hoping these water changes should eventually reduce it's stress. I'll keep an eye on it.

As for gravel, we have about 1/2 inch to 1 in. in there.

I'm glad your fish are doing better!

That's a lot of gravel you have in there, really hard to keep that clean. You may want to take some out. Some people go with none, or just a very thin layer, thin enough so you can see the tank bottom, so that it's easier to keep clean.

Goldfish really ARE messy, as I'm sure you can see with your gravel cleaning! Hopefully, with the water changes, you will continue to see your fish improve!

Laura

Update - after a week of the fish appearing to get better, they seem to have taken a slight turn for the worse. I found two of the fish sleeping at the bottom of the tank this morning for the first time in awhile. One woke up and began to swim around, the other acknowledged me and then went back to sleep.

The only change we've made recently is instead of 20% changes daily, we did one on Sunday and one on Tuesday. Is this too much of a reduction (at least until we get the water looking perfect)? Is it time to think about medicating the tank, or should daily water changes bring everything back to normal.

If it means anything, the two fish were sleeping on the bottom right next to each other. When one woke up, it started nudging the other one before swimming off. Could mean nothing, but I've never seen them do that before.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

As this only happened after you left your water change for a couple of days it shows that it is definitely water quality related so get back to daily changes and they should perk up again.
As for sleeping on the bottom, some fish do this. I have 3 that pile up on top of each other in the corner at night to sleep. It could just be that you were up slightly ealrier than normal and they were still asleep and you woke them up. Unless they keep sitting on the bottom I woudln't worry.

Things are starting to look a bit better. All three have started to sleep suspended a little more, although they still sleep at the bottom, too. The puffiness is going down. The white one still has a touch of pink, but it doesn't look too horrible.

Thanks for all the advise. It looks like the gravel was the source of the problem.

sly - do you have an airstone and filter ? If not get them urgently!!

also on another note, I would slowly remove all gravel - you will have more space
for water and be able to see how dirty your tank is getting. This will help you
greatly as you are so overstocked!!

It is not necessary to remove all your gravel, just be sure to keep the gravel bed clean. It would likely be beneficial for you to keep some in, to provide additional surface area for biofiltration.

Have you checked your water parameters?

I have a filter. What is an airstone?

Hi Sly, two of my fish sleep on the bottom, their stomaches are nestled right into the gravel/glass beads. They sleep beside each other. The others sleep higher up. When I go to the glass the two bottom sleepers will wake and swim around. It is completely normal (for my fish) to sleep like that.

Do your fish have their dorsal fins up when they are sleeping? Those two may just like sleeping on the bottom. My two fish sleep with their dorsal fins up or most of the way up.

I am glad to hear that they are doing better.

An airstone...hmmm well mine is a little blue sponge/rock looking thing. YOu buy an air pump and tubing, and you attach the tubing to the airpump, and the other end to the airstone, and turn on the pump. It makes bubbles, which increases airation. sp

Jessica

You say it is unnecessary to remove all gravel? In a big tank I would agree. In a 10 gallon tank with 3 goldfish I disagree. Those fish need as much water as possible and the gravel only serves to use up that space. The filter should be able to deal with the filtration.

Yes, ideally the filter alone would be able to handle the bioload, but as you've observed, the tank is quite small for the number of fish, and I'm betting the filter isn't doing a superior job and that the gravel is currently a major site of biofiltration in this tank. In any event, though, a thin scattering of gravel doesn't take up any significant amount of space and will provide much more surface area for biobugs. I maintain that is is unnecessary to remove *all* the gravel from *any* tank, and in some instances it would actually be preferential to keep some of it around (such as this instance ). Though I do think it is beneficial to keep the amount of gravel minimal in tanks without an UGF, it is not for the reason you suggest (more space for water) but because too much gravel allows stagnant areas and traps waste, which can in turn lead to problems for the fish. If a tank is overstocked and/or underfiltered, another few gallons of water isn't going to protect the fish or have any significant effect on the levels of ammonia/nitrite in your tank. In Sly's tank the gallonage gained by removing all the gravel would be less than a gallon. What good is an extra gallon of water going to do for 3 fish if they're in an overstocked, underfiltered tank? It is certainly not going to dilute dangerous levels of ammona and/or nitrite to safe levels. Better to leave the gravel in and allow additional surface area for biofiltration. In an overstocked tank, the fish can use all the biofiltration they can get.

Sorry for the distraction from your thread, Sly. If you do have 1" of gravel I would suggest you do remove some of it - down to 1/2" or less. Have you checked your water parameters recently to get the exact readings?

we'll agree to disagree, although you are right in that gravel can "trap" wastes - the one reason why I never ever use it.

I have no problem with disagreement, but I'm curious, what do you believe an extra 4/5 of a gallon would do for these fish? If you opt not to use gravel that's certainly your choice, but suggesting to others that it's necessary they remove all of theirs is irresponsible if you don't have a verifiable reason.


Yes, I know I am right, but it's nice to be agreeable on something, even if it's just something as simple and given as gravel having the ability to trap waste. I am not criticising what you choose to do with your tank, that is certainly up to you, but a thin layer of substrate properly maintained and vaccumed regularly is not problematic in this regard.

Not problematic in the correct size tank for the correct amount of fish I agree. But this person has 3 (sounds like more at one point) fish in a 12 gallon tank - this is problematic in itself, and squeezing absolutely everything that you can to make for even fractionally better water quality is, in my opinion, worth it!

Fractionally better (when you're dealing with ammonia/nitrite concentration) isn't going to make a difference in the life or death of the fish. The benefit of extra biological filtration (or even the mere possibility of it) weighs out the miniscule gain in water (and insignificant dilution of toxic water) by removing the gravel, not to mention that Sly's gravel is currently an intrigal part of any existing biofilter and removing it all would upset that (making the water quality worse).

Alright, I'll let this die now.

awwwww and it was just getting fun

Well if you REALLY think so we could continue... Nah, I think we've each said all we had to say. I don't want to scare Sly away from his own thread (if he isn't yet).

yup yer right

sly, I am wondering--how are your fish today??

Wow, a lot of action on this thread lately. Well the update is this.

Airstone - I actually do have an airwall in the tank, but haven't used it in awhile since the problems started, and the whole thing is probably clogged with algae now (but I can punch it with a needle if you think this would be beneficial).

As for water space, we removed all decorative plants from the tank and left one large rock with holes that they seem to enjoy swimming through, which also makes the gravel cleaning easier.

The fish themselves (and yes, we did start with 4, and now have three for the question of how many we used to have) are doing fine. Two have been switching from sleeping on the rocks and sleeping suspended, and one morning we found all three sleeping on top of each other (I myself didn't see it so I can't describe it perfectly), but they still spend a good amount of time swimming around and are all eating well. Without being the fish expert, I'd say they are doing much better than my first post.

We've been doing water changes about every other day (20%). We need to retest the water parameters, but even when things were bad, these tests didn't really show any problems (seems the problem was in the gravel).

Thanks for all the help, and no, I haven't been scared off of the board, just been out of town. I will keep looking for any additional suggestions. Can't handle the drama of another fish catastrophe.

Gonna start this one up again...

Another possible source of problems...how much do you feed and how often? If you feed too much and/or too often, your water quality will suffer due to uneaten food and lots and lots of waste. If you have three fish in your tank, you should feed on the light side...

Glad to hear your fishies are better though!

Laura

I think I feed on the light side, but not sure. I give a pinch of food once a day, they down it within two minutes, not really leaving anything behind (that they see). I assume some food does get trapped in the gravel, but that will happen regardless of how much I put in there.

!!!

We just got back from a three day trip after leaving the fish with a "holiday food stick," which we've done before, and nobody ate anything and now one fish is on her side on the bottom of the tank and can't swim. It looks like she is bloated, might have some tail rot, etc. What do we do???!!! It looks like it may be too late.


What happened? The other two seem fine? Please help ASAP...

The one fish is still doing poorly. I am surprised he survived the night, but would be shocked if he survives today. Another one of our fish has progressively been growing, and I'm noticing how large it's stomach now looks. It's not expanding round necessarily, which would make me think disease, but keeps growing vertically (so the fish is expanding from the the top of its back fin to the bottom of its abdomen). No scales are raised and he seems to be acting normally. Is this normal growth? He just looks off right now.

The tank currently is on Maracyn II and the filter is removed. We're doing daily 20% changes. I did another water test and everything came out fine on the color coded test strip.