Well I had a look at the new oranda today, in addition to the fungus (which is MOSTLY cleared up now) he has developed a nasty case of ich! I dont know how it could get so bad in one day!

He has been in the hospital tub with Lacy who were both recieving Jungle Fungus Clear for the oranda's fin rot and Lacy's cloudy eye.

Lacy nor any of the fish I usually keep her with have ever shown signs of ich, but the sick tank from which I got the oranda was totally infested with it, so I figured Id treat him for it anyway AFTER I was done treating for the fungus, but since it decided to show up, is it possible to treat it together???

Im going to run out and by some salt, anything else I should get? I was *thinking* maybe I could do salt dips on the new oranda in another container, then just putting him back in the tub with the fungus treatment....or is this too much?? I dont know what to do....

ALSO in the sick tank at work, there is a little more with HORRIBLE fungus and ich all over. How can I treat for both? So far all IVe done is add some parasite clear tabs and feed antibacterial food (which none of the fish like). There is also fun liquid fungus medicine, can I mix that with the ich medicine at the same time???

Thanks guys...I look forward to hearing your advice...

Im sorry I guess Im not exempt from this am I?

Test Results for the Following:
Ammonia Level? 0
Nitrite Level? 0
Nitrate level? 30 (come out of tap that way)
Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)? 8.4
Ph Level out of the Tap? 8.4
Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? Its a hospital tub, has about 20 gallons of water in it.
What is the name and size of the filter/s? no filters right now
How often do you change the water and how much? every other day, while fish are in treatment.
How many fish in the tank and their size? there were two fish in that tub for about 3 days, I just added two new pearlscales to be quaranteened in there today. Lacy is 7 inches, the oranda is about 3 inches, and the other are about 2 inches
What kind of water additives or conditioners? just stuff to remove cholorine, plus Jungle Fungus cure
Any medications added to the tank? above
Add any new fish to the tank? this is not the regular tank, its a hospital tub/ q-tank for the time being.
What do you feed your fish? Hikari oranda
Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt", bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? yup. THere is fungus and ich on the oranda

Any unusual behavior like staying
at the bottom, not eating, ect..? No. Acting fine.

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE MOVE THIS TO THE EMERGENCY SECTION!!!!!!

Lacy and new oranda look HORRIBLE I dont know what happened! Only thing I can think is PH crash?????? Milky skin...actually looks like skin is falling off..but maybe its just the slim coat. Lacy's tail is frayed!!! I dont understand!!!! I JUST checked on them a few hours ago!

Please help! What do I do? Im going to take pics....

Could it be because I mixed the meafix with the fungus clear? could it have caused a bad reaction for the the ph to crash????


PLEASE HELP!

Looks like *skin* peeling off eyes? Or maybe slime coat?
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/gia...ish/fish007.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/gia...ish/fish004.jpg

Here is her tail, I know it normally looks frayed (example) but never like this!
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/gia...ish/fish021.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/gia...ish/fish022.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/gia...ish/fish026.jpg

Here is the oranda, all *milky* and covered with spots (ich???)
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/gia...ish/fish017.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/gia...ish/fish014.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/gia...ish/fish011.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/gia...ish/fish010.jpg

WHAT DID I DO GUYS! Please help me!!! Please!!!!

Uh-oh!
I'd immediately transfer them into a bucket/tank with new water free of medication, maybe salt up to 0.3%

I'll try & fetch a mod for you gia

Thank you RIZ! But thing is I just changed the waterabout an hour ago! I havent added any medication back because I was waiting a response about the ich! I changed about 60 or 70% of the water. Should I change it again? Maybe there is still some medication in there? But its been 4 days since I added the fungas clear and melafix. Melafix you need to add daily but I was told not to do both so I stoped. I did not add any more fungus clear. The only other thing I added was the water conditioner...Jungle Start Right. Could that have caused a reaction???


ok...well while Im waiting for a response Ill go change the water again...

Ok I just changed 90% of their water.....

It must have been something I did!!! How could this come on so fast????

I'd even change 100% of their water to remove of any trace medications (but I think u've done enough water-changing today ). The salt should also be a good idea (I have a lot of faith in salt and nothing else lol). I don't have any experience in treating fungus or ph crash, but i've pm ed daryl. I guess we have to wait until the experts come.

How r they now?

Hey there. I really feel for you and hope someone comes along to help soon. It's so frustrating when things go downhill so fast. I'm sending good thoughts to your sweet fish.

There seems to be a lot going on with your poor fish I would be doing exactly as Riz suggested and start from scratch with 100% fresh dechlorinated water and would salt to 0.1%. The excess mucous production can be a symptom of the ich (a bad infestation) - which appears as thickened slime coat.

I think the best thing to do is take a deep breath and start curing the ich with 0.3% salt first. So daily massive waterchanges with new salt added and then see if there's any improvement.

Once they clear up, you will be able to view the problems (if any) remaining but I wouldn't put any medicines in there right now. They don't appear to be able to take it so salt is the best and gentlest place to start.

thank you..I will start with the salt right now...

ok I put the salt in. Thing is, Lacy never had ich. Not even one little spot. How could she get it so bad all of a sudden?

Now the oranda wouldnt surprise me because the fish in the same tank as him at the store were COVERED with it. Like you almost couldnt see actual skin, it was all white dots. So if the oranda was infested with ich that is believable, but is it possible for Lacy to get a horrid infection and be subjected to it for a whole 4 days and not show a single thing until about 3 hours ago?

I think the salt and wonderfully fresh water combined will make a good step in the right direction.

In the meantime, my fingers are crossed and post back soon with an update

lol tried to edit before I got an answer. lol

Oh and thank you soooo much!

Im sorry that youre having so many problems, Gia! Fingers are crossed for you!

It sure is possible. To give you an idea, 5 of my fish got ich but only one of them looked absolutely terrible in the shortest space of time. The only thing I can attribute this to is lowered immunity which is how it takes hold in the first place. An extremely healthy fish may stay ich clear in an infested tank (for a time) whereas a slightly weaker one can be covered in a couple of hours.

Thankfully they all cleared up nicely though

What's the temperature of their water?

room temp I suppose. Its a plastic tub, Id be afraid to put a heater in it.

That's ok - the salt still works well, it just takes a bit longer. Just as an aside, i've set up a heater in a plastic tub because the heater will never get hot enought to burn through the plastic. I suppose this is a good thing considering most of my fish would brush up against the heater. The water will always keep the temperature mild enough

Keep us updated, Gia. I'm sure everything's gonna be alright. I'd keep the salt treatment for about 1-2 weeks till it's positive all the nasties are gone.

Well they both made it though the night. I honestly though Id wake up and they would both be dead.

The oranda's tail has split and Im afraind Lacy may not have much of a tail left at all if this isnt treated soon.

I can see blood in the orandas pectoral fins and some in the tail. Its hard to tell if its streaks or not because he is a dark fish.

Lacy is showing signs of blood in her pectoral fins. I dont see any anywhere else but she is dark so its hard to tell.

All Ive done so far is change their water (twice last night, a 60% and a 90%) and give them .1% salt.

I have on hand fungus clear, parasite clear, melafix, and two more boxes of salt.

I have to leave here in 45 minutes to go to work and I get off after 2pm my time so I will check back and answer replies at that time.

Feel free to leave any and all opinions you have about this case. I do not want them to die....

EDIT: you can actually see the blood in the pectoral fins of the oranda in the photos I posted. I guess I didnt realize it was there when I took the photos. So I guess the redness has been there since at least last night.

Looks like this is under control again, now.....WHEW! Thanks Jen and Riz.

Ich is a very opportunisitic little parasite. It can sit around, dormant in the bottom of your tank hiding in the substrate and attack any time the water parameters are less than perfect, you put in a new fish that is stressed or any fish has a problem that could lower its resistance and immunities.

Ich can also be in a fish - heavily infested and seriously compromised and you will only see a few spots - or none at all! The spots you are seeing are actually the fish's skin that is stretched tightly over an adult parasite that is under the skin. Sorry if it kind of gross, but the easiest way to describe it is a pimple - the skin is stretched tightly over the pocket of pus - but the white bump you see is skin. This is the same thing. When the ich parasite in under the fish's skin making that bump, no medication can reach it or kill it.

What you can kill is the immature parasites - the little swimming swarmers that are in the water. They are too tiny to see - but they can be in there by the thousands! The best way to conquer the ich is to raise the temperature of the tank to speed up the life cycle of the parasites. The adults under the skin will burst out releaseing thousands of immature parasites which swimm freely, seeking out the fish or a new fish to infest. While they are in the water,you can kill them. (after you raise the temp, the ich will appear to get a LOT worse very fast - and then the "spots" will pop and the swarmers will come out and things can get better, fast, too! )

In the water, salt at .3% will kill these swimmers. If you change out 100% of the water or do a tub to tub move with the fish, you are leaving all the little swarmers behind in the water. This, too, helps tremendously.

Be aware, that in a tank with gravel or a substrate, immature ich parasites can encyst and lie dormant in the gravel, waiting for the next time a fish is stressed. You will need to address this problem, too.

Ify ou are going to use the salt to kill ich, though, you are going to have to get it to .3%. Poijt one percnet where it is now is NOT sufficiant to kill ich.

At no place do you have a reading of kH for your tank. What you saw earlier may have been a pH aberration - a crash of the pH - something that may occur if your kH is too low. Do you have a way to measure that?

Daryl, the oranda was never in my tanks. He was a rescue from work. Lacy does NOT have any spots at all. None. Only the oranda...so Im not totally convinced that is what is her problem.

I understand ich can lay dormant in my gravel, but Lacy nor any of the other fish in that tank have EVER had an ich outbreak. I know the ich is from the oranda because the tank he came from was infested with it..i had totally expected to treat him for it after the fungus treatment was complete. I never thought it would show up like this.

Are we not seeing two different problems here? I mean if it was just ich I could handle it....but her skin is milky, no sigh of spots, her tail is fraying so bad that by the end of this I dont think she will HAVE a tail, and before all this I was treating her for a cloudy eye. Now that's bacterial, right? Is it not possible there could be a bacterial AND ich problem?

Now remember I was treating the oranda for fin rot also. That is why I had them both together in the tank..which was maybe a horrible move.

Then the ich appeared on the oranda. He is covered. But ONLY the oranda. Not a speck on Lacy....

So is it not possible we are still dealing with two problems here or do you just think its the ich???

Will salt help heal anything bacteria related also?

WEll, it is entirely possible to have ich AND something else. Or multiple something-elses. The salt at .3% will take care of a large number of things - and will slow a large number of other things.

It is possible that (actually probable) that Lacey had one problem, the Oranda, another, and now they have shared them all. Lacey does not have to demonstrate the classic "white spots" to have ich. Ich does not ALWAYs present as a white bump. In fact, many fish can DIE from ich and never, ever have a single tell-tale white spot. If she was in the tank with ich, you have to assume that she carries it to some degree and treat as such.

The white stuff could be a response to a pH crash. It could be a response to something like Hexamita - another parasite that makes the fish appear whiteish and the slime coat sheets off and the fins and tail look like they are getting eaten away. Many people think that Hexamita is not very common, but I have heard of a great deal of problems with this in the midwest koi ponds. I would not write it off, until you do a bit of research on it.....

As it stands now, though, if the two fish have shared a tank, you have to assume that they now share problems. IF possible, I would separate them into individual iso tubs and treat individually. ( and I am not sure by reading your posts whether you have done this or not). It is always easier to address each fish - for they may or may not have totally transfered all problems, plus Lacey may have stronger immunities and be able to conquer things faster if she does not have a source (the oranda) in her tank adding more.

I will try to find a separate tub to treat them in...Im not sure I have one but I will look. Thank you again Daryl.

Oh Gia, I hate to hear this! I hope that you get it taken care of! My fishies and I will cross our fins for you!! Much !

Gia I am sorry that I didn't get your pm last night. I am glad to hear that things are "sorta in control".

I am of the same mind set as Daryl..........PH problems. Have you yet tested for the KH and tap's ph?

I just ran out of test strips the other day, but this is all new water! I mean I had just changed it and an hour later is when I saw how bad they looked. Can a pH crash happen as soon as I put it in the tub? That seems odd. There is no filter in there...the pH out of the tap is always on the higher side at 8.4. I dont know the KH but when I go to work tomorrow I will test my water and let you know.

Guys they still look really bad.. Lacy is getting more and more ragged. ALL her fins are frayed and her tail...well it looks almost like its dissolving..or just falling apart. She has lost about an inch of her tail, and the rest of it is completly frayed. SHe will never be the same again. I dont expect her to survive. She still have the milkly looking color to her skin...looks like her slim coat to me.

Can ich do this to the fish's fins and tail??? I dont think the salt is going to do it guys! This is not looking good... If you need updated photos of her I can get it for you.

The oranda seems to be in about the same condition.

EDIT: blood is still visable in both the fishes' fins.

I guess a reaction to the meds was not the case? Can mixing melafix with fungas clear have any adverse effects? It doesnt say anything on the box abou tmixing medication.

Is the salt all I can do for them?

I use a lot of jungle lab products myself. If you visit their website you can e-mail them questions especially about mixing products and they will e-mail you and answer back. There is even a club on there you can join for free and they send you free samples sometimes ( they just sent me a sample of start right water conditioner yesterday in the mail) I may be wrong but I don't know why you could not put some jugle ich med in with the fungus clear at the same time.
(p.s. the salt will help too)

Updated photos and something new I noticed...

Here is Lacy's tail yesterday, and here it is now. You can also see all her other fins are frayed badly. Her tail has frayed soo much in 24 hours. That bothers me a lot. Here is what her tail looked like before she got sick. She has lost almost half her tail.

Here is a video so maybe you can see things better:


Also this is new...watch her gills in these two videos...do you notice something odd? Only ONE is moving...what does this mean?

Gia, there's a very good chance there's several things at work here ie. bacterial infection and in addition to ich another parasite

Can you check the colour of their gills?

I would try adding parasite clear to the mix (with the salt) because it also has an antibacterial med in it. This is a very quick degeneration and while i've seen ich kill, i've never seen it done with so many other symptoms.

I can only tell you what I would do and this is it

THANK YOU!!! lol as you can probably tell by my quick response, I have been sitting at my computer for hours today just waiting for suggestions. I will take any advice you give because something HAS to be done. Im going to add the parasite meds now.

What about fungus meds, leave those out for now?

Oh and I will check the gills...

Yes, I would leave them out for now only because 1 med plus salt is enough for one fish to take Salt plus parasite clear should take care of most of the underlying problems and once resolved, salt will go along way to help keep the fungus at bay.

I hope there's some good results from this

Thank you Jen! I just checked Lay's gills are they look red to me. I dont really know what normal is but they dont look pale. I wasnt able to check the orandas gills, he wanted to thrash around so that wasnt possible. I put him back because I didnt want to hurt him.

I will keep a close eye on them and let you know if this helps. Thanks again soo much!

I know Lacy will never be the same now, her fins will never heal like they were, but I just hope she survives...the little oranda...well, I really hope he makes it, but he would have died in the sick tank at work for sure if I hadnt at least given it a shot...so I guess Im prepared for whatever happens...

I have my fingers crossed they both suvive

Normal gills means a nice meaty red colour without being tattered, pale or torn.... Sounds like lacy's are fine which is a big plus

More of Lacy's tail is gone and she still looks really bad...the oranda looks like it could possibly have less spots although his slim coat looks like Lacy's, his tail is not fraying, oddly enough....they both look pretty lethargic..the oranda spends a lot of time floating at the top kid of sideways...Lacy floats sometimes but tries to swim more.

I have to go to work in an hour and will be home at 5 or so. Im just going to try not to think about this too much. THe last two nights I kept dreaming about them. I just kept feeling like I needed to wake up and go see them because they were sick. Im one of those people who dream of what they are worried about.

Im going to get a coffee, try to relax and not think of them today. Its just been to much. I feel I made such a big mistake with Lacy. It was just cloudy eye and the oranda had a tad of finrot. I thought treating them together would be ok. I NEVER thought the two would get worse or swap diseases DURING treatment. I thought the medication in the water would prevent that. How stupid and I. Poor Lacy...Im sorry girl.

That's the hardest part about trying to cure too many things - it's so hard to find one med that will cure all, especially in the case of bacterial and parasitic invasions.

The severe finrot is normally caused by opportunistic bacteria eg. aeromonas, pseudomonas or flexibacter which lives within the tank and can also cause secondary fungal infections. They have a habit of taking hold once the immunity is rock bottom. In your case, i would suspect the parasites that have caused this so fixing this problem first would be the most important.

Hopefully it will work and has a much better chance when the water is beyond perfect. Do you have any medigold on hand? Can you get any medicated food from work? I would start feeding exclusively while treating with parasite clear. That way you can have all bases covered and the medicated food will help the parasite clear with the bacterial infection.

It sounds like it continues to get worse so you may need to step it up some with medicated food.

hi, i was just wondering if trying mardel products instead would help since you can combine all of them? Sorry to jump in like this i just feel really bad for the fish, i wish them the best.


karla

Jen, I will try to pick up some medicated food tomorrow..

Karla thank you for your concern! No one suggested the mardel to me, but I know these guys know what they are doing and I totally trust them. So Im just hoping this works, if it doesnt then I know I did all I could. Thanks hon.

They are still looking lethargic, although the actual appearance of them looks a tad better. Not as milky looking and not as many spots....so I think we are getting somewhere....

Mardel products are indeed great (Maracyn I and II) but at this point trying to clear up any parasites with the salt and parasite clear is the first step and then the medicated food (and parasite clear) will help with bacterial. This way all bases are covered.

Gia, a small improvement is a good improvement in my book and as soon as you can, start feeding medicated food. Are they still eating well?

Lacy is now just floating on the surface. She is hanging there sideways with the side of her floating at the top, just sitting there. She looks dead until I disturb the water, then she swims down, only to float up again and hang limp at the surface.

The oranda continues to float at the surface, but doesnt seem as bad as Lacy.

Lacy's eyes are totally white with fungus or whatever it is. It almost looks like skin is peeling off her but I assume its the slim coat. Still no ich spots to be seen.

Petsmart will be closed in 3 minutes and there is no way I can get there in 3 minutes so I will try to pick some up tomorrow when Im at work and if Lacy and the oranda make it until 7:30pm then I will begin treatment with the medicated food also...now I have seen medicated food for parasites and one for bacterial infections...which one should I get?

You need something to combat the bacterial infection which I'm sure they both have - so bacterial. The parasite clear is taking care of the parasites.

It doesn't sound too good There seems to be a lot going on in there. Are you keeping the water perfect? (i'm sure you are)

What level is your salt at? Still 0.3%?

Salt is still at .3% and I have been changing the water every day until I started using the parasite clear because it says I can re-dose in 48 hours so I was going to wait 2 days before I did another water change and then add the meds again...is this the correct way to do it? The water should be fine..I dont have a filter on it but it is about 20 gallons of water with 2 fish in it, and Im changing the water a lot so I thought it would be ok.... Thank you so much Jen...

I can tell you this from first hand experience, after 2 days, your ammonia will be high. Even after the first day it could reach .50ppm because fish are continually releasing ammonia via their gills.

It might be a good idea to check your parameters and if you do a 50% waterchange (depending on where the ammonia is sitting), just add 1/2 the meds back.

I'm so hoping they will pull through this

Thanks I will go change the water right now...

JEN!!! Popeye spotted on the oranda!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/gia...ish/fish059.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/gia...ish/fish047.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/gia...ish/fish045.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/gia...ish/fish042.jpg

WHY WONT ANYONE MOVE THIS TO THE EMERGENCY SECTION! They are dying right now! Lacy is barely moving anymore. Guys I dont know what to do!! Should I go up to nnnnnn and see if they have some meds? That is the only place I can go at this hour! I dont know what to do, they are dying......

I've moved it into 911.

As soon as you can, you need to get some bacterial medicated food however, are they still able to eat?

What are the parameters for your water? Can you post them?

The swelling of the eye would be attributed to the bacterial infection. Do you have any bacterial meds at your house? If so, which ones?

I only have fungus clear made by Jungle and no I dont think they will eat any med food. They look almost dead. They are not moving...the only way I know they are alive is because I see their gills move...

I changed the water and added the fungus clear instead of the parasite clear. I did not add salt.

Should I go to the store now and see if they have the food? I dont think they will eat it. I really dont. I think this is it....

Did you see Lacy? What is the world IS that????

Lacy's looking very bad Gia

At this stage, I would keep up the waterchanges and hope your oranda will improve. He needs the bacterial meds for his popeye and doesn't look as bad as Lacy - and if he's still eating, medicated food.

I'll be honest, it doesn't look good for Lacy I'm sorry.

I've mailed the mods to come take a look also