goodnight

Hi Jen!

I went out and got my airpumps and everything. Big W at the mall has heaters and pumps and filters that are all dirt cheap - probably not the best quality but if you needed to knock something up fast they'd be useful. I got a pump for my main tank and the celestial's qt. The pump for 144litres was only $12, just so you know if you ever need more... I have a nice wall of bubbles up the back of my tanks now hehe

Wow - that's a good price

How are your fish looking today? Ready to get onto those big waterchanges?

Hi Jen,

Pierre is still a little on the floaty side but his scales have pretty much gone down - doesn't head/tail stand but still has trouble manouvering - salt is at 0.2 at the moment, and he's still pooping ok.

Little Amsterdam the patchy celestial has been sitting on the bottom of the tank since I put in the salt - their tank is up to 0.2 as well. I now have an airstone on that tank as well, and haven't seen Agent Orange at the top. Little Amsterdam perked up a bit when I added the air stone but he is back on the bottom now. No other symptoms that I can see. He doesn't seem to be breathing heavily. About a week ago I had a little red cap oranda die in that tank after bottom sitting with clamped fins and heavy breathing, so I hope this isn't the same thing.. I think the oranda may have had skin flukes, I'm not entirely sure but his fins looked like they were more opaque than they should be, covered with something..

Well then, it's good that you're adding the salt. Did you do a big waterchange after your fish died?

I would keep any eye on him but if there's no scratching or flashing, then it may be nothing. How is your celestial pooping at the moment? I would just keep an eye out in case something bacterial is going on. What's the current temp of their tank?

I think at that stage I was doing 50% daily on that tank, so I think I did do a change after he died. But the night before when he was looking really bad I moved him into another container - I had the exact same thing happen with another baby red cap (so so strange, same symtpoms, same variety)

The celestial is still pooping ok.. now they are both sitting at the bottom. Maybe I am just not used to celestials? They don't seem as interactive as my other goldies. Current temp is 22 C. Do you know how to make pumps quieter apart from putting them on towels or hanging them?

I got rubber matting for my pumps and it cushions all that thumping - stops them moving all over the place also.

My celestial spends a lot of time on the bottom of the tank - he will get up and swim around at tea time then go for a looksee at what else is happening, then he will go to his resting spot. He's been like this since I got him so have to assume he is always like this

Mine are still in the same place since I told you that they were both on the bottom. Hopefully its just celestials hey?

Hopefully, but i'd be keeping a close eye out for any changes. They shouldn't be resting so much.....

If, after two weeks (they've been in quarantine for a week already) they're still acting the same way should I keep them in quarantine or assume that that is just the way they are?

Waiting a full three weeks is a great idea. By then you will know their personality and whether what you are seeing is normal. If they're ill, their condition will deteriorate in that time so you will know for sure but if at the end of that time, you notice:

- they're eating well
- they're pooping well
- their gills are a nice meaty red in colour
- there's no visible marks on their bodies
- there's no thickened slimecoat
- there's no red streaking anywhere on their bodies
- there's no flashing or scratching

then I would take this to read all is well. If you have any doubt at all, then keep them where they are for now

Alright. The bubble eye in my main tank still occassionally goes up to the surface, even with a bubble wand AND an airstone. It's so hard to know with goldfish!

Since Pierre needs perfect water params, would it be worth putting him back into the main tank since it is cycled? I could raise the salt a bit too (but not too much - live plants), or is there a risk of infection?

No, I wouldn't move him back until you're sure he's healthy. There's definitely a risk of contamination. It can take a couple of weeks once symptoms disappear before you know they're really well.

My sick fish I mentioned earlier was doing so well but had a slight relapse during the week. She's better now but I'm glad I didn't put her back with her tankmates.

It's much better to be safe than sorry

Just on your bubbleeye - going to the surface is something most fish do, mine do but it shouldn't be at all times...

The bubble eye goes up every so often, takes one or two gasps, then goes back down. He is swimming around the majority of the time, he just never used to do that.

How are your guys doing today?

The ones in the main tank seem fine - my family made me turn off the pump last night because its noisey, but they're not gasping at the top so that's good.

Pierre is pretty much the same, still a little floaty, but swimming and eating well.

Little Amsterdam still sits on the bottom, but I just turned on the light and now they're excited about being fed. Apart from the sitting they are both well, eating and pooping well, and I have not seen Agent Orange gasp at the top since I added the airstone.

That's great news

I might move this out of 911 now and hopefully things will continue to improve

Sure thing. I'll let you know if there are any problems (or hopefully there won't be and I can just tell you when they're all moving into the main tank!) Thank you so much for all your help Jen!

That's a pleasure

I look forward to the day when they can all go into the main tank

Hi Jen.. I tried to post message you separately because this isn't really supposed to be in the 911 section, but it didn't work... anyway, I just wanted to tell you that the celestials are now in the main tank (I got a little impatient.. they were only in qt for 2 weeks) but they both seem fine.. Little Amsterdam seems to have perked up and he's swimming around with the rest, and not just sitting on the bottom. The qt tank was just gravel, so I think it was purely a boredom thing, there was just nothing for him to do in there!

And this morning I noticed my ranchu in the main tank chasing after my pearlscale... I thought this ranchu was a female, so I passed it off as a pecking order dispute because of the new fish.. but I found some eggs in my tank! There are about 6 that I took out.. and three more in the tank which I will leave because I don't have room to rear heaps of fry.. well I'm not even sure if these eggs are fertilised because I didn't see them get layed.. or perhaps the fish ate the rest? Anyway, the ranchu is still chasing around the pearlscale, but he doesn't have any tubercules on his head or fins.. do males sometimes not have tubercules? Just thought I'd tell you because its so exciting!

Wow, things are really happening no? Firstly, don't worry, I moved your thread out of 911 and into diagnosis/discussion so it's no longer posted as an emergency

Secondly, I hope your fish all do well together. Eggs huh? If they're white, then there's a chance they're not fertilised but if you see a couple of black dots inside the egg, then they're most likely fertilised. As for the males, they may not have breeding stars if they're still too young but on some breeds of fish, it's hard to see them unless you're viewing them from a certain angle and under good lighting.

I hope you'll post some pics if and when your new fry hatch?

I hope they are fertilised.. I keep finding more eggs in the tank. There aren't any black dots though.. the eggs are an amber colour.

Well, if your temp is in the mid 70's, then in about 4 days you'll know whether or not they're fertilised

Hi Jen,

I don't think the eggs were fertilised because they have gone opaque... my fish have spawned before but the last lot of eggs weren't fertilised either - perhaps I have no males?

Anyway, this morning I have noticed a few of my fish swimming around erratically before flashing on the gravel, and some are flicking their fins. All are eating well and I can't see anything on them, no parasites or spots or strange things.. Little Amsterdam's patchiness appears to be a colour change because he is still fading, and I have not seen him flash.

Should I do anything? Raise the salt level? I can't see anything so I don't know what I would be treating for.. Ammonia is 0, pH is 7.0, Nitrite is 0, Nitrates are at 20. I was going to do a 20% change just for the Nitrates.. and temp. is at 23 C.

Thanks Jen!

Also, I moved Pierre to the celestial's qt tank once I moved them into the main, because its nicer and I could set it all up with places for him to hide... anyway, I did a complete overhaul and scrubbed everything, and washed all the gravel in tap water.. but it seems there were enough bacteria to cycle the tank because ammonia is 0, Nitrite is 0, Nitrate is 5 and ph is 7.2 - finally the water quality is right!

Did you scrub out your filter media? If so, you may experience a crash of your cycle but if your filter media has been left alone while you did the clean, you should be ok.

How much salt do you currently have in your tank?

Sometimes parasites can lay dormant for several weeks and as soon as the immunity weakens, they can take hold in the most horrible way. How often do they flash? Also, is there any yawning?

I simply transfered the filter from Pierre's old tub to the washed out tank, and used half of his water too.

There is 1 g per litre in the tank, and yes, there is quite a bit of yawning, more than the flashing. There flashing isn't ... I was going to say not very often but I looked at the tank and there my pearlscale was flashing.. seems to be increasing. But I can't see anything! What should I do?

This depends on how much salt you currently have in your tank. If it were me, I would raise it to 0.3% over the next couple of days so that would be 1 teaspoon of salt per 4 litres then 12 hours after that, add the same again and 12 hours later, the same again (Woolies sells some good cheap sea salt with no additives).

How are they breathing? Is it laboured? (constant gasping) or is it normal?

I got some salt just the other day as I was salting Pierre's tank.. breathing is normal, I've been keeping an eye on it. The pearlscale seems a little floaty, nothing like Pierre but it floats upwards and has to swim to stay in the one spot.

This could be due to his swimbladder. Do you soak his food before feeding him?

I would start adding the salt now taking it to 0.1% (1 teaspoon per 4 litres). Then post back after 12 hours with an update. Just on the flashing, do they actually rub themselves on the rocks or ornaments? Are they all doing it? Is it frequent? or is it once every now and then?

It could be nothing and the next few days will tell whether this is true or not... The salt is a good idea none the less especially as a couple of them are still relatively new

They have been on gel food for months now, and they get peas and lettuce a couple of times a week.

When they flash they quickly rub on the gravel a few times. One of the new comers swam around insanely and then rubbed. One of my older bubble eyes went absolutely psycho ones and was twisting around and upside down like you wouldn't believe before he flashed on the gravel too (I had turned on the room lights and I thought perhaps it was a shock) Apart from these two I have only seen the pearlscale flash, and that is not as crazy. The ranchu has not flashed but flicks fins occassionally, and I think all are yawning.

Well then I would start the salt straight away and take it to 0.3% (3 times 12 hours apart). Also keep an eye out for any thickening slime coat or any changes to the skin area. Salt kills a majority of parasites so taking it to 0.3% may be all you need to do to resolve this.

I hope so.. any ideas as to what it could be?

Sorry Jen, I'm off to bed, but I will post back tomorrow! Night!

It may be nothing

But if it is something, without the help of a microscope - it's hard to say. This is why identifying other symptoms will help in pinpointing what it could be. At the moment, all we have is flashing and fish can flash for several reasons. It's an indication that something is irritating their skin, whether this be water quality, a changing ph or parasites. Plus, yawning only becomes a real concern if they do it regularly which is their way of trying to clear the gills.

ps. night

Hi Jen,

Salt is up to 0.2 now and the fish are still flashing/ swimming erratically occassionally. A few have been floaty on and off.. they had lettuce yesterday and I'm going to feed nothing but peas today to try and clear them... this salt will most likely kill my plants won't it? If this salt doesn't work, what else could I try?

You won't see any results from the salt until you get it to 0.3% (and yes, i'd remove the plants to a bucket for the duration of salting).

Here's a list to give you an idea of what salt kills at 0.3%:

- Ich (within roughly 72 hours at higher temps)
- Chilodinella (in roughly 24-36 hours)
- Costia
- Epistylis (24 hours regardless of temp)

After about 48 hours in salt at 0.3%, you should hopefully see a reduction in the amount of flashing but if you don't, then there are meds on the market that will kill flukes etc. But I would give the salt a chance first

Hi Jen,

My fish are still flashing a little, but I just added the third dose of salt so that's taking it up to 0.3.. they are all a little floaty except for Little Amsterdam.. could this be from whatever is causing the flashing?

Also, I removed the plants and they're in a tub of water now.. I put the root feeders in little pots of gravel and left the rest to float.. they were all doing so nicely too.. they are in the kitchen where there are fluorescent overhead lights.. will this be ok for the duration of the treatment? And when I add the plants back, how will I know that I am not simply adding whatever parasite caused the trouble in the first place?

Eughhh Why are there so many problems?!

The plants should be fine for the next couple of weeks. If you want to help them, you can get a product by Seachem called Flourish, it's a plant nourisher that helps them grow. You can add that to the bucket. There's other plant furtilisers on the market but this is my product of choice.

As for treating your plants for parasites, there's 2 ways you can do it using bleach. You can add a dilution of 1 part bleach to 20 parts tap water for a quick dip and swish which is enough to remove any unwanted things. Or, you can add 25ml of bleach to 1L of water which is a 1:40 ratio. This dilution is weak enough to soak the plants for 2 minutes, but it’s best to keep the roots and bulbs propped out of the solution. After the soak, give the softer plant parts a quick dip, then promptly rinse all the plants (and their parts) in a tray of dechlorinated water. These ways will destroy anything lurking and won't harm your plants. Bleach can be very harsh but if you follow these steps, they should do nicely.

When you say floaty, do you mean on the surface of the tank? Or do they float around the tank? Fish don't swim constantly, they often stop to rest so I want to try and establish what you mean when you say floaty?

I don't have liquid flourish (I have the tabs, though they are in the tank) but I added some other liquid fertiliser..

Floaty as in when the goldfish stop to sit mid-water they'll start rising slowly as though they cannot stay down. They can still swim around and maouver well, it is nothing like Pierre's floatiness. Just watching them.. it seems better today. I didn't feed them yesterday at all.. and I'll give them some peas today.

That's a good plan

Hopefully with 0.3% salt the flashing will stop also

Hey Jen,

Unfortunately we ran out of peas! But the fish didn't eat for 2 days and I think that helped some of the floatiness.. the pearlscale is still a little floaty. Little Amsterdam has gone quite pale now with his colour change, nothing like the picture I sent you, and he is growing very quickly! I've seen a bit of fin flicking but no flashing - how long should I leave the salt before I know that everything is dead? And also, would I then proceed to do water changes to put back my plants? What percentage and how often?

I know this is a forum for goldfish, but my sister has a Siamese Fighter who just developed pop eye yesterday - he in in a 5 gallon (I think that's what, 20 litres?) with no filter, but I checked her params and all were perfect! Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10, pH 6.8.. the eye is very bad, swelling quite badly and the scales on his head are protruding. There is no abdominal swelling though because I thought perhaps it was dropsy related. I think his slime coat has increased too because it looks like he has a grey film on his body. We put 1 tablespoon of Epsom salt in the tank (as wetwebmedia said), but is there any other way to treat this? It was very bizarre since the params checked out and there have been no new fish, as he lives alone, and no new plants added.

Hi BB - keep the salt up for 21 days - and then do 2 x 50% waterchanges and that should dilute the salt enough to add the plants back. You want to make sure anything there is erradicated so I wouldn't reduce the salt until that time. And when you do waterchanges, just add back the 3 teaspoons per 4 litres that you replace.

As for your sisters betta, click on this link Bettas and post the problem here. I've never owned a betta but many people here do have them so would be better able to help you

Hi Jen,

I thought the flashing was finished but unfortunately I saw one of the celestial flashing today... I haven't seen any other fish flash though - he seemed to be scraping the side of one of his eyes, the bulging part.. I noticed that there seem to be two lumps there... but they are very small - almost like breeding stars (I know they aren't but they look similar). There doesn't seem to be swelling around the lumps or discolouration/bleeding/fungus, or any other signs... should I leave the salt for longer or will I need medication? The fish do not seem as active as they were when the plants were in - do you think this is due to their environment? (I noticed when I first put in the celestials they perked up immediately when they had places to explore) Thanks!

Don't worry if your fish become a little bored for the minute - all they ask for in their environment is the best water possible to survive Are your parameters still perfect?

I think for now, you really need to let the salt do its job. Keep an eye on your celestial - it could take a few days before the flashing stops and when it does and your confident it has, keep the salt in for the 21 days to make sure nothing comes back.

There's no reason to medicate now unless you see symptoms such as:

- stingy white poop
- red spots
- loss of scale due to incessant scratching
- pale gills (under the gill plate)

Medicating while beneficial to helping with specific ailments, is very detrimental to their health if not needed. It sounds like the flashing is on the wane which is good so I would take a step back and watch carefully. My celestial has 3 little whitish spots around his eyes - they've been there for 3 months now and other than these, he's a healthy little fella (touch wood). But if you see any additional symptoms, post back otherwise just keep your water perfect as they will do much better with this.

How often is your celestial flashing? Is it constant? Or only a few times a day?

The water params are still good, the main tank is fully cycled so I have no problems with that, and Pierre's is also cycled now thanks to that gravel. I do not see the celestial flash often, it was only once the other day, and I have not seen him flash at all today. I will wait it out and see how they go.

I had an idea for Pierre. I have read that the medicated food is better than medicating the water because it is more easily absorbed by the fish. I thought perhaps I could whip up a batch for Pierre with the Vibramycin added as it would probably be more effective, and might kill whatever bacteria he has. He still has a healthy appetite but since I salted the tank his head standing has gotten worse. I've gone back to the Epsom salt at low levels because he seemed to be improving.

You could certainly try it. I've made medicated food with Tetracycline and the way i did this was by soaking some spirulina flakes/discs and when soft, added it to a tiny bit of crushed garlic, some flake food and some plain tuna (in springwater not oil) and blended it all together. Meanwhile I dissolved the tetracycline in the smallest bit of water and added this also. Then I added the gelatin and boiling water, mixed well and placed in the fridge.

It worked a treat

I'm really pleased your guys are not flashing as much - I think the salt is working well and after 3 weeks, nothing should remain that can irritate their skin

Hi Jen,

I have made a batch of medicated gel food for Pierre - am just waiting for it to set in the fridge. We didn't have any salmon or tuna and we're still out of peas.. but it has carrots, beans, cos lettuce, rice, and egg.. let's hope it works!

Mmmmm - yummy

Let me know how it goes. How is Pierre's condition now? Is he still improving? Or has he deteriorated a bit?