OMG. Blood coming out from orandas gills!!

Please go to this topic I posted yesterday for all water params and photos. Please HELP!! Thanks!

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=44776

He's still alive, very listless, but seems like he's fighting to say upright. I guess he is bleeding internally. Is there anything I can do, or should I euthanize him. I really don't want him to suffer.

Ok, Just so you know, I started Maracyn II treatment this morning. It's a 40 gallon tank, so I used 8 packets. 2 packets per gallon for the first day is what it says. I've been watching him all morning and he really doesn't look good. He's not eating at all either. His poop looked a little bloody too.

As of now, the bleeding has stopped coming out through his gills. When it was coming out, it looked like puffs of red smoke. Not excessively, but enough where I could see it. Has ANYONE ever dealt with this?

Hi, I really don't know what to advise as I'm not very experienced with treating sick goldfish, hopefully someone experienced will be along to help soon.

Try to get an up to date set of test results etc. ready so somebody can help.

As for euthanizing him, only you are in the position to judge whether hes suffering or not, hang in there and I'm sure someone will be along very soon. Best of luck

Thanks Mr. Bumblebee, will work on getting current tests on params. I feel so bad, his nose is down with tail in the air, but at least the bleeding stopped. Will post new tests in a few minutes. Thanks again.

Ok, here are current readings in my tank: Using Hagen Master Test Kit

Ph high 8.0
Ph low 7.6
Nitrates 20
Nitrites 0
Ammonia .01

Medicating 40 gal. tank with Maracyn ll this morning.

Other fish are acting fine. Anybody out there? Please help. Thanks.

Hi Cisco, I've just been reading your other post too. At a guess I would agree the bleeding gills sounds like a bacterial cause, maybe secondary to the other problems??

So, you've qt'd the really poorly fish now, salted the tank and started Maracyn? That sounds like a really good start.

I'm sure there must be somebody who's come accross this before who be along shortly

I haven't heard of this. I'm going to try some of my favorite pic sites to see if I see anything that looks similar.

Bacterial infections can cause difficulties in floating. Nose down tail up can be a sign of a bacterial infection.

Did the bleeding start soon after you added the maracyn? Are you medicating the tank with all of the other fish in it? Are any of the other fish having this type of symptom?

Do you still have carbon in the filter?

I'll be back! I'm off to check out some pics - Jenn

I had an angelfish that had this and it turned out it was bacterial gill rot and he got other bacterial diseases and died. I think the maracyn is the best thing to use, but try and look in his mouth and gills for anything that might be stuck.
Check the gills anyway to see if they are a healthy cherry red

Did the fish bleed after being handled??

Hi All,

I lost Cheeks about half an hour ago. He was bleeding pretty badly, laying sideways on the bottom, and his gills stopped moving, so I got him out of the tank, put him in some of his tank water with lots of ice to make sure he was asleep.

He wasn't in a QT tank, I medicated the 40 gallon with my two other fish in there. I thought since it was bacterial, I'd treat all of them. Fisharenewtome, the bleeding started about 6 hours after I put the Maracyn 2 in there. The other fish seem fine and no, I didn't have carbon in the filter.

Sandy, I just checked his mouth and couldn't see any blockage in there, but he did have some sore on the inside of his mouth. I checked his gills and they are cherry red.

Poor little guy, wish I knew what happened.

Anyway, does anyone have any clue as what I should do now with the 40 gallon tank. Should I do a water change and put the carbon back in? Thanks for your continued help.

fisharenewtome,

no he didn't bleed after handling him, but when I took him out of the tank, blood was dripping from his gills.

As you suspect that this might be bacterial - I would finish the course of treatment in case any of the other fish have it but are not yet symptomatic.

I'm so sorry to hear about your loss - from your pics he was a beautiful fish!

Thanks fisharenewtome. I loved the little guy, he was cute!!
I will continue the Maracyn 2 in the tank, I guess. I hope my other fish will be ok.

How are the others looking?

Hi Fisharenewtome,

The other's are looking ok, but I noticed both of them "shimmied" a couple of times. Goldie has some red spots on her, but they aren't protruding like they were on Cheeks. They look different than what Cheeks had. I just fed them medi-gold. Thanks for asking. I'm kinda worried about the tank. Hope the Maracyn II takes care of whatever it is.

Keep an eye out for other unusual behavior in case this is a case of a bacterial infection due to some nasty parasite infection. (What do you mean by shimmied? Were they scratching on anything or rubbing on the glass or ???)

I hope the medigold & Maracyn II clear it up quickly!!!!

*hugs* Jenn

Thanks for the "hug" Jen, I needed that!

They are hanging out in the middle of the tank (kind of hovering in one place), their fins are up, they look good, but while they were "hovering", they kinda shimmied. No, not scratching against anything or flashing, just like a "shiver", if that makes any sense. It probably isn't anything, but maybe I'm just paranoid. Do you think it's anything to worry about?

Also I did do a Prazi treatment because they were flashing and yawning, but finished that treatment last week sometime.

I'm not sure. If it were me I'd just keep a close eye out on both the fish & the water params (along with the food & meds).

I hope this is the end of it & your other fish get better soonest! Jenn

Jenn, I will keep an eye on them. Thanks for the good wishes.

Hey Cisco sooo sorry about your Cheeks,he was a beautiful fish.Big hugs .I know how you feel.

I just wanted to give you the ingredients for General Cure

The general cure capsules contain

125mg Metronidazole

13mg Copper Sulfate

8mg Trichlorfon

Very powerfull treatment

Let me know if ever you want some

To me it sounds like your Cheeks died from Amonia poisoning
Read this link


POISONING

Keep us posted on your other fish

I'm so very sorry Cisco

Bleeding gills can be a result of major stress because if you think of the gills, the membrane separating the water from blood is very thin so when they bleed, while not life threatening, it means their blood pressure has risen and will bleed out through the gills. So it is a good indicator that something else is very wrong and in this case, it appears to have been a bacterial infection sadly.

I think treating your other guys is a good idea because if their immunity is in any way compromised, they could indeed catch it. I hope they continue to thrive and please, keep us posted.

Hey OB,

Thanks for the hugs and for replying. I would like to get some "General Cure" from you, but need to give you my address, etc. and get yours. I can't pm you cuz I don't have over 100 posts. Can you pm me with your email address so we can connect that way?

Awwwwhhhhh, I am so totally bummed for loosing Cheeks. So you think it was ammonia poisoning? My ammonia levels weren't high, they were at .01 and my nitrites was at 0, so I don't understand how that could be. Could it be because my Ph is on the higher side? I did a 40% water change before adding the Maracyn this morning. I also opened up my canister filter (Eheim 2026) and swished the floss from that filter in the old tank water. It was really filthy. This is the first time I've cleaned it since I got it. It's been running since Feb.22nd. Do you think my tank just never cycled and I had spikes I didn't know about that stressed him out?

I'm going to check the ammonia in the tank again, cuz Goldie and Calico are still in there. Thanks!!

Hey Cisco

Email me at evildarkbeauty@hotmail.com

we will discuss the Genereal Cure

Kim


And for the poisoning,it sounds alot like what the link said. I dont know much bout cycling ,maybe someone else can help you out with that.. sorry

Sometimes these things happen and its not your fault,we have lots to learn on our goldfish to maintain a perfect tank

Thanks Jenn, I'm sorry too, ugh, it's so hard lose a fish you pay a lot of money for, but more than that, one you totally fell in love with.

Bleeding of the gills was really pretty scary to see. I feel like such a bad fish mom! I didn't know what to do. I thought it was the maracyn II he might have had a bad reaction to.

I'm truly scared for my other fish.

I am truly sorry for the loss of Cheeks.

I have no experience with the symptoms that he had, so I can't be of much help there, but I do wish you and your other fish well going forward.

Dave

Dave,

Bless your heart! I know you have been through quite an ordeal too. Thanks so much for your condolences and thoughts. I've been reading your thread on what you've been through with your fishies and must say, you are a good fish dad. You've done a really good job.

Thank you, Cisco.

I must say I never had much of an attraction to goldies. My kids brought these two free fish home about two yeas ago, with a one gallon bowl, and I knew that wouldn't work, so we've gone from there, including expanding greatly my marine fish.

I swear though, that my Dory knows I am trying to help. She'll follow my eyes with hers, move out of the way of the gravel vac, begs for food :-) and generally becomes more active if I am near her tank. I think she knows, for sure, and I've got to say, watching her has given me a whole different perspective on toughness and perseverance. I guess you could say I have changed rather radically in my attraction to and admiration for, goldies. ;-)

I hope the rest of your gang are doing well.

Dave

Do you know your water temp & current pH - I have a table that tells you how toxic your ammonia is at various pH & temps.

Jenn

Hi Jenn,

Current water temp. is 78, ph high 8.0, ph low 7.6. Nitrates 20. Ammonia 0.1 (Hagen Test). From what the Hagen test shows for ammonia, it says it's totally in range and safe. What do you think?

At that pH & temp - that ammonia level should not be toxic.

Jenn

edit:

At a pH of 8.0 I strongly urge you to keep you ammonia no higher than .5 (that will be in the caution zone). Ammonia becomes rapidly toxic at levels above that at that temp.

Hi Dave,

I know what you mean about not being attracted to goldies. I really never was, I liked tropicals. Our stories are very similar! My aunt's daughter ended up getting a goldie from someone who won one for her at the "State Fair". Since I have had experience with a tropical aquarium years ago, I volunteered to take care of it until they had the means to buy an aquarium. I put it in a bowl, suprisingly enough, it lived until I could get it into a 1 gallon aquarium!

That fish which I kept until my friend could get a larger aquarium was really a cutie and that's what got me started on goldies. Shortly after she took her fish home to her own aquarium, I purchased two goldies myself from my lfs. I still have them, they are beautiful, but so sad that Cheeks didn't make it after only having him a month. Aaaaahhhhhhhhhh, so frustrating!! Long story short, I think goldfish rule!! So glad to hear you like them too.

Thanks for your good wishes for my remaining crew, I wish the same for yours too.

Jenn,

Thanks for your reply on the ammonia readings. I am testing ammonia everyday and keeping a close eye on it. Should I lower my temp a couple of degrees? I only had it higher because I was treating with Prazi last week and never lowered it. Also, I am keeping the tank at .3% salt. Any advice?

Just keep the ammo down with water changes.

78 degrees on salt with your pH I think your ammo needs to stay below .5. Do you have Prime? if so use it, if not get it if you can, it will help between water changes.

Since you've had illness, I would lower temps and salt very slowly, over the course of weeks, rather than days, until you get to where you need your tank to be.

You might want to chek out a product from Seachem called Alkaline Buffer, it will help you get your pH to 7.5., and buffer your water so it stays more constant. But do it slowly! No point in stressing the rest of your crew, and I would wait a while before attempting to adjust the pH. I have my GF at 7.0, and I have a similar issue, in reverse, I'd like to get them to 7.5. All in good time.

Dave

I think right now I would leave it where it is & see how everyone reacts. I would also leave the salt in at this point as we're still not entirely sure what's going on.

Here's the link to the ammonia table. Click Here

I would not play with the pH at all unless you have a problem with it. If it is stable then a pH of 8.0 is just fine. It's a bit trickier to cycle with that high of a pH but it is much more important to have a stable pH.

Once you start chemically trying to alter pH it will always be something you have to watch very carefully. There are members on the board who have very successfully kept goldies at 8.0.

It is much much more important to have a stable pH than to have a pH of exactly 7.5 (or some other number). You should only worry about pH if it is too high or low or if it is unstable (ie the pH drops after the water has been added to the tank after a period of time.)

parkerdt - I wouldn't change that pH at all unless you have a stability issue. 7.0 is fine for goldies.

Dave: I understand that ammonia should read 0 for pristine water conditions, and I can only control that with water changes, however, I just started the Maracyn 2 this morning and it calls for a 5 day treatment. While on this treatment, what if I get some spike readings with ammonia, nitrate or nitrite? I gather that one should not do ANY water changes until treatment is complete, but if there are any spikes, what should I do? I do use Prime during with every waterchange.

Fisharenewtome: I do agree with you about ph. It has been stable since I've been keeping my gf for the last 4 years. It's been between 7.6 and 8.0 consistently in my tank and out of the tap, it's been 7.6 consistantly. Would you consider that stable?

So let me ask again? Keeping the 40 gallon tank at 78-79 degrees, continuing the Maracyn 2 treatment for the next 4 days and keeping the .3 % salt treatment is ok? With or without a waterchange? Please advise. Thanks again. Very much appreciate your expertise.

I personally always find water changes necessary with a course of Maracyn 2. More important to keep the ammo low, I think; a large daily water change (50% or so) before the meds go in should work here. And yes, Prime will certainly help between water changes.

As to the pH, sorry, I though you wanted to lower it, and that is what I was writing about. If you can keep that good a range without buffers, then I would not mess with it either. There are reasons I do not like my pH at 7, but this is not the place for that discussion. For the moment I would leave salt and temp the same as well; pardon me for misreading but I thought you were wanting to normalize that as well. I'd like to see you get through the antibiotics before you change the environment, apart from managing the water chemistry. My point was that when it is time to lower the salt and temps, this needs to be done very gradually, I guess I did not express that very well. But the time to do that is definitely after all treatment is done.

I think 40 gal at 78-79, M2, .3% salt should work fine, but I suspect you will indeed need to do those water changes. Your test kit will tell you for sure. If you can keep ammo .25 or less you should be good, and hopefully everyone will be happy.

Hope it goes well, Cisco, and sorry if I confused things.

Dave

Hi Cisco, so sorry to hear you lost him

You did everything you could, take care

Mr. Bumblebee, thanks so much.

Hi Dave,

No problem about the Ph thing, ,sometimes things get confusing and yesterday I was such a mess that I probably wasn't making sense anyway. I have a few more questions, thanks for being patient with me.

So, let me make sure I get this right. I just want to be sure. Between each dose, everday, do a 50 % water change? Right?

With changing so much of the water everyday, doesn't this mess with the cycle? Will I have to start cycling all over again?

So when I'm done with the Maracyn 2, shall I do a dose of just regular Maracyn also? Please advise again.............

Thanks so much!

PS. Calico and Goldie are doing ok this morning it seems. Ok, I'm off to do a water change.

I would do at least 1 50% water change each day before the next Maracyn or Maracyn 2 dose, yes. But let your test kit be the guide on this - if your water params are staying in check, you should be fine without the change. The reason this is recommended is that Maracyn and Maracyn 2, while great drugs, can play havoc with the biobugs as well as the nasties, and with any sickness perfect water quality is the first goal. remember to replace whatever salt you take out, as well.

You may or may not have to cycle after the treatment. The only way to tell is with water tests.

I personally would do a Maracyn treatment when done with the M2, just because we're not sure what we're fighting, and best to cover the whole spectrum. But you'll have to make this call yourself based on what you are seeing.

Once the treatments are finished, you can see how your cycle is doing, and we'll see what needs to be done from there. But let your test kit be your guide.

Dave

OK - What I would do is test the water before every med dose. If your ammonia reading is .25 or less (as well as your nitrite reading-don't want to forget about that in case you experience a mini bump in the cycle) you can choose to do at 10% change or not. If the reading is any higher you need to perform a waterchange based upon the reading. I totally agree with using Prime.

You may experience a bump in the cycle due to the meds & the water changes but that can't be helped-your fishies health has to come first.

I would wait until you are done with the first cycle of meds & see how the fish look & are acting before you make any decisions about future dosing (if they seem fine & the red has disappeared - then no further meds should be added. If the red is better but not gone you should do a second course of the Maracyn II. I would leave the tank salted for the time being as you saw some symptoms which *could* also indicate a parasite - I wouldn't treat for one at this point though as it could just be stress. Have you seen that shimmy again since last night??)

Your pH seems to be very stable. I wouldn't try to change it with any chemicals.

Parkerdt - I didn't realize until late last night that you are using RO water & so you're pH is a bit unique (I saw it in another post!)

edit: & we posted at the same time!!

Jenn

Hey Jenn and Dave, here you go posting at the same time again! Thanks for both of your replys. Also Jenn, forgot to thank you for the PH table you posted a few posts prior. That will be invaluable for me.

Ok, my plan is to test the water, amonia, trates and trites too, then re-read your posts and go from there. I'll be back with more questions probably, cuz I really do want to do this right. Thanks for being here!!

Yes, with my RO water I have no choice but to buffer it to maintain hardness and pH. It's as easy to do 7.0 as 7.5, depending on which buffer I pick. Since my RO water is usually about 7.2 after sitting mixing for a day, that is the pH I will ultimately shoot for, but changing it is the last thing on my long list, at the moment.
The one good thing about using buffers is that the pH remains VERY stable.

But tap water with sufficient general hardness and calcium hardness is obviously just fine, also. As long as the pH is good and steady. :-)

Since Cisco's pH is on the high side, if she ever does need to buffer, she'll need to use something like Alkaline Regulator that is close to her normal pH. Of course, once you start buffering, you do need to test GH and KH as well, so more test kits. I certainly would not advise dosing chemicals in the absence of a way to measure and therefore control the dosing. I suspect you'll be just fine without buffering, tho, Cisco.

Your plan sounds good to me.

Dave

Test Kit? Hagen Master Kit
Temp? 78 degrees
Ammonia Level? 0
Nitrite Level? 0.1 with Hagen 0 with Quick Dip Strip
Nitrate level? 20 Hagen 40 with QDS
Ph Level? High? 8.0 Low?7.6
KH? 70 with Hagen kit, 120 with Quick Dip strip
Gh? 200 with Hagen, 300 with QDS
Ph Level out of the Tap? Low 7.6 High 7.6

Hi Dave, here are my levels. Dave thought I would send you my Kh and Gh too. I know we don't need them for now, but thought you would like to know. With them being so high, I think I should never have to do anything to my ph right? Also, could my ph in my tank be higher right now because of the salt level? Why would it be at 8.0? when my tap water reads 7.6? Sorry for all the questions and if you don't want to answer here, I agree, this is probably for another post.

Anyway, ok, I read your posts.

My readings are the same as yesterday which were fine, the only one I'm concerned about is the Nitrite. It did spike up a little from 0 to 0.1. The test says it's still a safe level.

Also the water is really cloudy, so I think I will do at least a 10% w/c.

I will keep the salt at 3%. Also, I do use Prime with every w/c.

Jenn, no, I haven't seen the shimmy again, but I haven't been glued to the tank like I was yesterday. I will keep a close eye on them though.

I will see how this dose goes and if there is still red on the fins, will do another round of Maracyn 2. If the red is gone after this treatment, will then do a round of just plain Maracyn. Did I get that right?

Thanks again you two. Your help is much appreciated!!

That all sounds good, Cisco. No need to worry about your pH for sure - should be very steady with those hardness levels. I honestly do not know if salt affects pH or not.

That cloudiness you see is most likely a byproduct of Maracyn2 killing stuff; a bacteria bloom. Seems that everyone gets that cloudiness with the first course of Maracyn2. It's ugly, but not a problem. Your nitrite spike may be related; Maracyn2 can play havoc with your cycle by reducing the good bio bug population. Again, just keep monitoring and do water changes if the ammo or nitrites get to .25.

Sounds to me like you are doing fine - keep up the good work!

Might be a good idea to start a thread over in the Water Chemistry section to discuss your pH and why it is different in the tank from your tap, if you are interested in pursuing this.

Hi Dave

Thanks once again for getting back to me. All is well in the 40 gallon. Decided to do a 20 % water change because I will be gone all day tomorrow and thought it would be a good measure to do this since I noticed a little spike in nitrite from yesterday to today. I also dosed for 2nd day with M2.

Thanks for the encouragement and all of your help. Hope Dory is doing well today. I'm going to have to get over there and read more on your post. This has been quite a learning experience.

I will ask in the water chemistry section about salt levels affecting Ph. Have a great day Dave. I'll keep you posted here on my tank............

Salt shouldn't affect pH.

I'm glad things are looking up!!

Jenn

Hi Jenn,

Thanks for letting me know about the ph and salt thing. My other two seem to be doing ok, red spots on Goldie are still there, but this is only my 3rd day of M2.

How are things going?