Test Results for the Following:
Ammonia Level? 0
Nitrite Level? 0
Nitrate level? 20
Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)? PH 7.0
Ph Level out of the Tap? 7.0
Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? 55 gallon/8 months
What is the name and size of the filter/s? Penguin 350B & Whisper dual fountain that came with tank
How often do you change the water and how much? 10 days 50% water change
How many fish in the tank and their size? Was 4 Orandas now only 3**see below**
What kind of water additives or conditioners? Aquasafe by Tetra
Any medications added to the tank? Aquarium salt .03 because 1 tiny Oranda had Ich
Add any new fish to the tank? 2 1" Orandas about 3 weeks ago
What do you feed your fish? peas, banana, medigold when necessary and tetrafin goldfish crisps soaked
Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt",
bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Was Ich that is now gone
Any unusual behavior like staying
at the bottom, not eating, ect..? The Oranda I am needing help for--Stays in one spot for lomg periods of tike--has clamped fins--but eats good**more about him below**

Hi everyone

My largest Oranda over 7" had a very big stomach for several weeks--I actually never noticed--I just thought he ate most the food--after he spent nearly 3 solid days in a corner--I put him in a 10 gallon quarantine tank with epsom salt and Maracyn 2--after 5 days there was an incredible difference--he was thin(although he ate good while in quarantine) and he was more active--so I put him back into the 55 gallon. He was acting normal again--swimming and eating and only occasionally sitting on the bottom--yesterday morning(the same day I put My big boy back in there) his buddy died from dropsy--I never even noticed he looked like a pine cone until it was too late My vision is poor and both of them are/were black spotted calicos. NOW he is back to what he was doing before--except his belly is normal--He has clamped fins and is listless> What do I do? Not to sound ridiculous, but I can't take 2 funerals in my yard

Kerri hopefully we can get you some help and you won't have another loss.

Your water looks great, so that is good.
My concern is the clamping of fins, this can be a sign of a parasite and since you had an outbreak of ich I wonder if it is still there under the surface.

What did you treat the ich with and for how long? How long ago was this?

I treated with .03% aquarium salt and the water temp at 78-80 degrees. That was 3 weeks ago and the salt and temp are still the same even after water changes.
The Ich was only noticeable for 1 day--I treated immediately with salt and I have not seen it since.

How long did you leave the salt at 0.3%? With treating ich with salt it is necessary to leave the salt at 0.3% for 7 days past seeing anything on the fish, as well as vacuuming the gravel daily to pick up what is in the gravel. Did you do this?

You can also try a product called parasite clear by Jungle Labs. It is very safe and is for parasites. YOu can also use it with salt.

The tank is STILL salted at .03%--it has been close to 3 weeks since I first saw any Ich.
I will get the Parasite Clear right away Thank You VERY MUCH--I was afraid I was going to lose him too
Yes I have been doing daily gravel cleaning.
Just to make sure--The Parasite Clear will help my big Calico heal and get healthy--ie. clamped fins, listless?
Thanks for all your help Laurie

I can't guarantee it but if it is parasites it should help. In Doc Johnson's book (the gf guru) he talks about 2 things clamping fins on gf, parasites or a ph problem.
If your ph is solid then parasites are your next choice.
Good luck and keep us posted.

Oh what is the heat at? When treating ich 80 is good.

The heat jumps between 78-80 degrees.
The PH has NEVER varied--it stays 7.0-7.2 <--Those results depend on which person compares the results(usually my 11 year old and I )
I do have one question that I was not sure of(I have been reading thread after thread info. gathering--I have had my tank running for 8 months--I have never changed the carbon--I only rinse my filter pads off in tank water--Here is what I want to know: I read that I have to remove the carbon in my filters--I thought the carbon was not active anymore(I thought it loses its usefulness relatively soon after turning the filter on)--Should I still remove it?
Thanks and your knowledhge is APPRECIATED

BUMP--Sorry for the BUMP--I just need my very last question answered

Sorry I had to go to bed. Long work day.

Yes it is still important to remove the carbon from the filter.

I don't use carbon unless removing a med. Most tanks are run this way. I would remove it and start the Parasite clear. That should help out.

I see how busy you are helping people on here--I imagine you are just as helpful in every day living--I had/have patience--I just saw how fast this topic was being BURIED so I BUMPED it a notch--LOL--

The Parasite from Jungle Labs is circulating now--I appreciate all your help--and I will replace the carbon after 2 treatments.
Thanks for all your help and understanding Laurie.
Have a great day/night

YOu are very welcome, don't hesitate to let us know if things aren't going well.

Hi Laurie

I wanted to keep you up to date on my big ole Oranda. He has shown no signs of improvement with the Parasite Clear.
After reading the "Flukes" topic from post to post I realized that my Oranda has Chilo and that is why the treatments I have given him with Maracyn 2 and Parasite Clear have made no difference in his behavior
He is still lying on the bottom--scratching vigorously when he tries to eat, fins still clamped and it looks like he is continuously Yawning
I am waiting for an answer to a question I posted on the "Flukes" topic and hopefully I can begin treating him and getting him well
Thanks for all your help--I should have been more detailed in his behavior when you were helping me.

Kerris did you do a scraping and look under the microscope?

I will see if Toothy can have a look here, don't stop the PC treatment yet. Do the full 2 treatments.

I did run the full two treatments and he is still the same--what I forgot to mention was that he has also been itching/swimming sideways a great deal against the gravel--at least 40-50x a day, but so far there are no lesions--thank god. And with today being the end of the 2nd treatment there is no change in his behavior.
No I do not have a microscope or the money to purchase one
I was simply basing all of this on his synptoms and the medicines I have given him thus far NOT working.
But I will wait until I am told to proceed onto the Chilo train
Thanks AGIAN

You are welcome, I have sent Toothy a pm so that hopefully when he gets on he can take a look.
Since the PC didn't do the trick.............well I am not sure where to go from here.

Have you been salting the tank?

Yes I have kept the tank salted at 0.03% since I have been giving him meds. I would give anything to see him swim like everyone else--He has been on the bottom of the tank for so long now

I think you mean 0.3%...........yes?

Then that is good. I would keep the salt in there to aid in the stress of the fish.

Yes that is what I meant--LOL--Having a rough time typing the wrong words today

I'd like to pop in for a moment, if I may!

Do you have this guy in a qt tank at the moment?

If the PC isn't working, and you don't have a scope, the next thing we can do is go on your descriptions of his physical activity. The culprit could very well be chilo or tetra.

If you'd like to go with the salt treatment, I would highly suggest doing it in a separate tank - away from the other fish. Increasing the salinity to levels above .3% needs close supervision. What this involves is slowly (and I do mean slowly) increasing the salt level in the tank by .1% every 12-24 hours until you have reached the .8% level. The tank temp also needs to be at least 78-80 (it has been found that high levels of salt at a low temp can cause pop eye). This .8% level needs to be held for 2 weeks, barring any other complications. Then the salt level should be dropped, again very slowly , til your back down to zero.

If you've read my post, you'll find my fish didn't handle the salt increase very well. This is why it is important to watch the physical activity of the fish during this process. Right now I tried to increase the salt again, but at a level of .3% my fish started to show signs of pop eye so I dropped him back down to zero. I am now practicing 1.5% salt dips followed by baths in PP every 3 days. This is another alternative for you if you find the .8% doesn't work.

Take a moment to review what we've wrote. I also ask you to wait for Toothy's response, as he is the expert in the parasite department. I am simply going thru the treatment process as we speak.

Post back soon.

No, He is in a 55 gallon with the other 3 Orandas--I thought it was better to treat him AND the tank if it was a Parasite that had moved into to the 55 gallon.
I have an established 30 gallon I can move the 2 small Orandas into and I can put the 4 inch Oranda in a QT tank with daily water changes--I would put him in the 30 gallon but my Felfie--A large Oranda with an attitude--lives there and will attack ANY fish similiar to his size

I have not proceeded yet with carefully adding salt until I hear from Toothless--Please I mean NO OFFENSE to anyone--

One thing I would like to add to maybe help with the HELPING ME scenario--I have only used Parasite Clear for 2 treatments--not 4-5 as I have read should be done in other threads. Today is the end of the 2nd treatment and I am out of PC until I get to the store tomorrow.

Hi there.


If you have dosed PC at least twice in one week and you have seen no improvement, then you are not seeing a flukes infestation.

If you look in at the gills and do not see any whitish-grey-tan lumps mixed in with the gill filaments, then your not seeing an ergasilus (gill maggots) infestion.

If you do not see any grains of salt, gold dusting or strings hanging on or off your fish, you are not seeing ich or velvet (oodinium) or lernea (anchor worm), respectively.

That leaves us with ciliates and/or flagellates. Trichodina, chilodonella and tetrahymena are the three main ciliates in question. Costia (flagellate), is a reality as well. BUT, trich, chilo and tetra are the ones that really cause manic flashing. To kill them off, you could go one of several routes:

Salt dips once a day and treating with Malachite green/formalin combos has some success.


Potassium permanganate, if used properly, can do a real number to pretty much anything alive (and reeeeaaally tiny ). I recommend this stuff.


To round the list out, a high salinity (0.6% to 0.8%) can be run for 2-3 weeks. This kills off many bugs but I feel that PP dips are better and can actually be run along with the high salinity. There is MUCH thought, planning and preparation that needs to be put into this process but it is HIGHLY thorough.



I must stress this beyond everything else here; None of these treatments are likely to be an end all to your parasite problems, except the high salt alone, becasue 3 of the 4 suspects above are very crafty and can survive treatments if the entire treatments are not performed in sterile conditons. This means that all the fish need to be treated in a separate tank, without a filter, while the main tank is to be stripped, sterilized, completely dried out, maybe even sterilized some more, set back up and re-cycled. The whole speil is that if the salinity does not work, then they are a resistant strain and a need a very rigorous treatment to completely rid your system of them. Otherwise, theyll be back.


So, I would begin raising the salinity to 0.6%, if all goes well up to that point, go to 0.8%. But, you need to have a salinity testing kit to monitor your salt closely. Access to a digital gram scale helps GREATLY! I highly recommend the salinity test kit and a gram scale for this. Expensive, but stability and precision are needed to control your salinity. You should not raise the salinity more than 1 to 1.5% each day. Once your at your target level, keep it there for at least two weeks. Oh yeah, the temp should be controlled at 74-78, strictly.


If the 3 weeks of salt doesn't stop the flashing, then your going to have to move on to the other suggestions.


Waddya think?


Also, tell me a bit about your experience with your scope. What kinda scope and are you able to see stuff with any clarity at 400X?


Post back soon.



Paul

I'm sure you know this but what toothy really meant as far as raising the salinity is to raise it no more than 0.1% to 0.15% per day, not 1 to 1.5% per day.

Just a typo on his part--we all do it. But I just wanted to clarify.

ooops! yep! fantail is right.

I was just discussing salt dips with someone just a second before posting so, I got them jumbled.......

Boy you can tell I am a little off today Fantail--I NEVER noticed the typo--LOL--

Thanks for getting back with me Paul--I APPRECIATE everyones help with this.

I checked My Big Boys Gills and they are redder than ever--actually my daughter checked them while I told her what to look for(I have bad eyes)
There is also NO ich or anything hanging from him--I have seen anchor worm before and *knock on wood* there is none in my tank.

I started a 3rd round of PC and increased the salt to .45% between yesterday and today--I won't put any more PC in there after this treatment.

I called my Mom today and asked her to email Joel Osteen(he is a tv preacher she likes) to say a HUGE prayer for my big ole Oranda that treating with salt CURES HIM--LOL--
I REALLY REALLY would not look forward to sterilizing that huge tank and all its accessories--LOL--

I will get a salinity testing kit tomorrow and I am looking on ebay for a digital gram scale.
I do not have a microscope--with my vision it would be a waste of money

I will update everyone probably every 2 days UNLESS things go North or South dramatically, then I will post right away

Thank You Paul--Laurie--Fantail and Chico for your guidance

You are very welcome, it is a nice site to see Toothy on board. You are in such good hands with his guidence!!

Here is my first update.
Today is Day #1 of .6% salinity. My big ole Oranda is still scratching maybe 30X a day on the gravel instead of 40-50.

My smaller Orandas have been affected by the salt being that high--they are bottom sitting quite often (3-4 hours out of the day) but are still as active as ever at feeding time.

I will not add more salt until I see improvement in them--maybe not even then.
Fingers Crossed.

Day #3

Hi All

I have spent 3 hours total today watching my fish. ALL of them seem adapted to the salt @ .6% and none are sitting on the bottom now except for my big ole Oranda --He has scratched on the gravel 2X during the times of watching them. He has not resumed swimming around yet, but the scratching is DEFINITELY subsiding

So needless to say I am feeling MUCH optimism over the extreme salt treatment <--a name given with the UTMOST respect Paul

Glad to read all is well.

Keep us posted!

Great news!

Like chico said, please keep us updated.

Extreme is right! You should have seen my jaw drop when I learned of goldfish being able to handle water that salty!


Keep up the good work!

Day #5 @ .6% salt

Hi All

I saw MORE scratching today than I did 2 days ago--BUT--My big ole Oranda shuffled over to the other side of the tank--a four foot shuffle for him and that is something he has not done in over 3 months. He has not started to swim yet--but ALL fish are doing well with the salt at this level, so I am upping it to .7% by tomorrow--fingers crossed--

Kerri, keep hanging in there. Toothy is the best at this stuff. Just wanted you to know, I am still here watching from afar. Paul is good at this stuff I can't touch it.

Day #7 @ TOO HIGH SALT LEVEL

Hi Everyone

OK--I just found out I was reading my salinity test WRONG--I started the EMERGENCY thread a few minutes ago to get the correct salt reading--which I go by .3 and I just needed that # confirmed.

Turns out my fishies have been swimming in 1.0 level salt
I just changed 20% water and added NO additional sait--so now they are in .8 level salt.
God if they were human they would owe me a slap in the face--LOL--

So far my big ole Oranda is still itching himself on the gravel and not swimming--but he does love to eat when I feed them

What a day this has been so far

Wow! thats good you figured out your test kit.

Well, if your seeing the itching behavior at or beyond the 2 week mark, then I think it would be a good idea to treat with Potassium Permanganate. Perhaps even during the level of salinity that they are at when that time arrives. If your fish are doing well, besides the itchy behavior, then I think it would be a good idea.


Time will tell if this salinity will do it or not.

How about gaining access to a microscope for identification of the culprit? Is it a possibility, even remotely?


Keep an eye on that salinity kit!


Paul

Day #9 @ .8% salinity

Hi All

I believe I saw a sliver of hope this afternoon--My Big Ole Oranda actually did a little swimming for about a foot and a half--I have not seen him do that in a while.
He is still scratching though--but not as much as before.
The rest of his crew have adjusted well to the salinity at .8%, all bottom sitting is gone (except for my big boy) and they are all eating well.

Paul--What brand of Potassium Permanganate and where would I buy it? And how would I use it too <--if you have the time to explain.

A microscope is not financially in my future yet--I just got done paying for a 100 gallon setup on layaway <--so if my guys need a sterile new home, THAT will surely be the one--although I will still have to sterilize the 55 gallon --LOL--

http://www.goldfishconnection.com/shop/det...tId=51&catId=21

That is the easiest form of PP to use. However, the cheaper way to go would be this: http://www.pondrx.com/store/customer/produ...=1&cat=1&page=1

I, as well as several others here, have PP in our arsenals and would be happy to help you in getting all the dosing and sterilizing done correctly.....


I must warn you, going the PP route is not going to be easy. Now, if you were to try the PP route, high salinity or not, your going to want to treat any and all fish from the tank multiple times while doing large to total waterchanges each day. The fish should be treated in a separate container and kept there while you break the main tank down, sterilize the heck outta everything and recycle it.

Again, This is very labor intensive. But PP is a powerful parasite killer and if you do everything right, your fish should come away without any nasties.

There arent many other options when dealing with a ciliated, or flagellated parasite. Its all out warfare to eradicate them, or just "control" them with treatments when they are at their worst. I prefer all out war, myself.


Keep us posted

I am so not looking forward to sterilizing the tank--LOL--
OK, I have a couple questions.

1. How much PP should I get from goldfishconnection to sterilize a 55 gallon with 2 filters and peebles and gravel AND to treat 5 fish?

2. When I treat the fish--I have 5 total--3 small-1 medium-and 1 large--Do I treat in the SAME container that will also HOUSE them?

Daily water changes is no big deal. I CLEARLY remember the 3 months a HELL I went through cycling the tank when I first started out--LOL--

As I am sterilizing the 55 gallon I will setup the 100 gallon and get it cycling for them.
The 55 gallon will be a home for a VERY mean Oscar.

This will be over some day

For a good start, two bottles will last you for a bit. If you need more, then youll have it. It keeps for a good amount of time too.........

Its up to you if you treat them in the same container they are to be kept in, temporarily. I preffer a separate bin so that I can sterilize the holding container while they are in the PP bath.

It could be a tough journey, but persistance can overcome them. It took me many months of battle to finally rid a single goldfish of chilodonella.....

Hang in there.


PAul

Hi Everyone

I lost track on what # day this would have been with the salinity @ .8%--BUT--4 days ago I noticed one of my smaller chocolate Orandas with Popeye forming--I realized that I had to reduce the salt--so TODAY it is at .5%
He still has Popeye and I will reduce another .1% in an hour or so

I just noticed that my Big Ole Oranda has Dropsy
He is now in a quarantine tank with Maracyn2
Could the high levels of salt stress him to allow Dropsy to develop? Or did he have Dropsy all along with my initial treatment of Maracyn2 was not long enough for him to heal all the way?

Please remember to go very slow on reducing the salinity. Remember, too, keep your tank temp up around 78F.


Not sure about the dropsy....possibly the high salt concentration weakened the immune system and then dropsy developed. I'm sorry to hear this has happened. My fish developed pop eye at high salt levels as well....you can add Maracyn 1 (if you got it) to the main tank while you continue to drop the salinity. It will help w/the pop eye - that's what I did with mine.


Good luck, and keep your eyes on the little guys......

I learned my lesson the last time I increased/decreased salinity too fast.
I will only increase or decrease at .1% a day from now on

I only have Maracyn2--I will get some Maracyn tomorrow for my little guys Popeye

everything was going so well with that 55 gallom setup. I have a 30 gallon setup with 1 of the original 3 Orandas thriving in it
I bought two Calicos and a Bright Orange Oranda from the same tank about 8 months ago--The Orange one is healthy and thriving in his own tank(he doesn't like other tank mates) the smaller of the 2 Calicos died 2 weeks ago from Dropsy and My Big Ole Oranda is hanging on the best he can.

I have 4 Orandas left in the 55 gallon--2 -3" Chocolate ones(one choco is turning blue) 1- 2" red cap and a 4" Calico(white with faded black spots<--he is turning blue on one side)
They are all thriving except for one Chocolate with Popeye.

All of this is soo frustrating.

Sorry about the dropsy and popeye. I hope it stables off soon. Since the salinity is the cause, as soon as it is reduced to .1% or less, they "should" improve.

Your fish are now Prime candidates for PP baths. Try to get some soon and you can get to work on the nasties.


Good luck


PAul

Rick emailed yesterday and said my 2 bottles were shipped--I should have them tomorrow.

I have a silly question--When I have all the fish out of the 55 gallon tank--Can I Super Dose the 55 gallon with the PP and let it continue to run through the filters and such? <--Will that work--Or do I still have to breakdown the 55 gallon and clean it thoroughly with the PP?

Can I Super Dose the 55 gallon with the PP and let it continue to run through the filters and such? <--Will that work--Or do I still have to breakdown the 55 gallon and clean it thoroughly with the PP?


Ha ha ha . .. that is the million dollar question!!

I just super dosed my 90 gallon tank and was hoping not to have to break it down. Here's the trick--when you super dose it, it leaves A LOT of brown debris behind. On the side of the tank, on the filters (especially the hose of a canister, if you ahve one). Long story short, I broke it down. It took quite a while but I just couldn't see filling it back up without a thorough cleaning. And, FYI, I never even had FISH in that tank. I contaminated it with chilo from another tank. I can only imagine the amount on brown gunk left behind if I had had fish in there.

Just my experience though.

Anyone else do this?

And good luck with your fish!

Yeah - you gotta break it down even if you run PP through it. I had fish in mine (of course not while PPing it). I took the fish out, took the gravel out, took all filter media out of the filter, put some PP in there, and ran it for 7 hours. I then deactivated it, emptied the water, took everything out, and scorched it all with hot water. Let it dry in the sun, if you can. Then reset.

Good luck. It's such a time consuming process...but in the end, it's for the best.

Great, you can get it started quite soon then.

The idea here is that your culprit is unkown, so it could concievably be a species of parasite that encysts. If it does, it stands the chance of lasting out a superdosing by hiding in a drop of water on the underside of your hood or tank rim or anywhere else. Protozoans are VERY resiliant like that.

If you sterilize your tank as Chico suggested, you'd be doing all you can to prevent re-infection by way of equipment or tank stuff. Remember, EVERYTHING needs to be PP'ed heavily and scorched with hot tapwater. EVERYTHING.

Sorry I have not replied for a few days--I have not had anything new to report--NOW I do.

My PP arrived a few days ago BUT........
I only have 2 spare tanks big ebough to hold all my fish while I do the back and fourth thing while I clean the 55 gallon.
My Big Ole Oranda is still in one while I treat him for Dropsy. My Lil Chocolate Oranda that had PopEye was cured in 14 hours--so I put him back in the 55 Gallon--But my Big Ole Oranda is still trying to get cured--I am going to give him Maracyn2 and Epson salt for 5 more days--so far he is still pine coned but ALIVE--I hope he keeps fighting.

The salinity in the 55 gallon is down to .2%.

I have a question about cleaning the 55 gallon--What about the lights--do I somehow clean those or just throw them away and replace them?
And how about the heater and Air Stone with all that tubing? Clean with PP or just get new things?

The 2nd batch of Maracyn2 starts tomorrow-Sunday. I am not sure what I will do if he is still pine coned then

This will be over some day

Oh Yes--What do I do with the PP baths? How do I do it and can they all be in the same bath at once or separate?
Specific instructions for that is best for me PLEASE

Believe it or not, PP baths are rather simple to do. They are no different than salt baths and are actually less stressful.


Youll want to draw fresh water into the bathing tank. DO NOT dechlorinate it. Let it sit for at least 24 hours. When its time to do the bath, be sure that the temp of the water from their tank to the bathing tank is the same. Then dose the bathwater with PP (measuring syringes are best for dosing precisely). Add your aeration and then ad your fish. Let them ride for no more than 4 hours. Then, remove them from the bath into a temporary home that has been filled with temp matched dechlorinated water. This is where they will reside for the remainder of the treatment, in between baths.

Once the fish are back into their temporary home, you can run the aeration hoses and airstone/wand through as hot a water as you can for 10-15 minutes. Then add to the temporary home to increase aeration.

Youll need to do a large to total waterchange once each day to be sure that ammonia is not rising to dangerous levels. You can use this chart for calulating your allowance for ammonia levels: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=35322 Use temp matched and dechlored water as always.

I highly suggest that before you get all this underway, that you break down the big tank and get it sterilizing so as to avoid re-infecting your fish from messing with the big tank while your still treating them.


Just remember to sterilize everything as best you can. Bleach works VERY well for sterilizing stuff. In fact, it works better than potassium permanganate. Just be sure to rinse VERY well with hot water before trying to use again.


Im sure I missed some stuff. Anybody have anything to add?



Ill be back this evening!