Well - this was *going* to be a happy, "he's okay; I worry too much" update - that is, until this morning. I had taken him off all the medications and medicated food and started him on jumpstart food - also, I added salt to the water and have been dosing with medigold because of the long tear he got in his tail. I spoke to Rick Hess about all this ten days ago. As of yeserday, his eyes were still wobbly and cloudy, but his tail was healing nicely and the white patches were no worse. In fact, they looked as good as they ever had. But, this morning, he was sitting on the bottom behind one of his big rocks, and the white stuff on his dorsal had made a reappearance and is now showing up towards his tail. The good news here is that his fins were not clamped and he was hungry. He could swim, but had trouble getting to the surface, and tended to crash again quickly.

This is my black moor, whom I've had for 2 and a half years now. He's in a twenty long by himself with an eclipse hood and filter, biowheel, 2 plastic plants, 2 rocks and about 1/2 inch of fairly large gravel. He had just had a 35% water change last night, after which I gave him a pea. His water is at about 76 degrees F, no ammonia, no nitrites, nitrates 10, pH about 7.6. He usually eats Rick's food (had been on medigold for about 6 weeks) and gets peas twice a week. I do a 25 to 40 percent water change twice a week.

It is possible he'll be swimming around when I get back tonight, but, if not, I'm going to start to panic. Still haven't been able to get a look at his gills - should I try to? I don't want to stress him more. TIA!

Sorry Gilbert's still having troubles, Mary.


How long since he's been off the meds? And to be clear, are you or are you not feeding medigold at this point? If so, for how long have you been feeding?

I really wish I could help you out with a biopsy to be certain of what is going on. Next best thing to a biopsy, though, is a check of the gills. Look closely at the color (make sure you have good lighting), texture, look for any missing secitons. The outer gill filaments will be lying on top of the inner ones, and it may only be the outer section that is damaged, so be sure to get a close look. The outer filaments might stick to the operculum (gill cover) as you lift it, and it might be easier to see any missing sections as it falls down, or while it is still stuck to the operculum.

While you're handling little Gilbert, give his belly a gentle poke and see if it feels mushy or firm. Also pay attention to his slime coat and see if it is heavy.

How's his poop - normal?

Bless you for tending to this little guy, not everyone would have so much patience.

Happygoldfish, I first wanted to wish you and everyone here a happy Thanksgiving (yes, Koko especially!) and thank you for your help.

Second, I wanted to ask you about how one goes about checking a reluctant fish's gills? I took a look at Joanne Burke's site, and she says hold them upside down with at least one gill in the water? Is that how I should do it? As I said before, this little guy fights so hard when I try to pick him up! He's hard to hang onto, and I don't want to stress him needlessly.

A very brief answer to your questions: When he was bottom sitting, he had been off all meds (except salt and melafix for his torn tail) for several days, and I was feeding him jumpstart. In despair, i put him back on one more course of bacti-bath and the metro-med food, and the next day he was swimming about normally. But I'm still not sure it was the right thing to do. His ammonia spiked again as a result of the bacti-bath - he's now three days off the med, and I'm trying to get the ammonia down - and, perhaps as a result, he's missing a scale from his side. It looks like a large, shallow white patch, but there's no red in it. The good news is that he's swimming well and hungry. His poop is fairly long, thick and greenish or brownish usually. Somtimes it's irregularly shaped, especially after I give him a pea - a blob with a long, thin string attached. Sorry to be so graphic!

I will try to check his gills after the holiday if you can tell me how to do it. Thanks again for everything.

Happygoldfish, I have yet to do the complete physical and will give you results asap. But I had a question -

As I said, I got him back on the metro-meds about a week ago, and he's swimming around energetically again. But, when I came to do a water change yesterday, I noticed something a little off-

Rick Hess had thought the white stringy stuff might be resulting from drops in my pH. I didn't think so, since I pretty consistently test at about 7.6 and do frequent water changes - *but*! - I tested everything except KH yesterday, and the pH indeed seemed to have dropped to about 7.5/7.4. There was also a lot of junk in the gravel, even though I try to clean it every week. Although Gil looks better in most ways, the slimy stuff is now a heavy yellowish smear on the front of his dorsal fin. I think I may again try to wipe it off with iodine on Wed., when I do another change (and hopefully check his gills and tummy). Could his main problem actually be pH drops due to my relatively low KH? If so, would adding some sort of a buffer help him? Do pH drops cause goldies to bottom sit, as well as causing white slime, etc?

Trying to check a fish's gills with one gill in the water can be difficult. My fish tend to squirm more when they're partially submerged, and I find it easier to see their gills when they're removed completely from the tank. You could try it either way, both methods are fine and won't harm the fish - it;s just a matter of preference and what the fish will (or won't) tolerate. Be sure your hands are clean and moisten them with tank water. Hold the fish in one hand, with their nose away from you and pointed slightly down, then with your opposite hand, slide your thumbnail under the gill cover and raise it. Fish that are unaccustomed to being held will put up a fight at first, but usually settle down after a few seconds. You could try holding him in your hands up at the water's surface for a moment to give him some time to calm down. If he's especially reluctant, you could get someone else to hold him securely while you peek at his gills.

A drop from 7.6 to 7.5-4 wouldn't normally be enough to cause problems. It is usually a fairly large drop or an acidic pH that causes symptoms (like white slime and bottom sitting), though it is possible that Gilbert is sensitive to water conditions. The question is: Is that as far as the pH drops, or could it be dropping further and you're unaware? Do you have live plants in this tank? What is your KH reading? A buffer wouldn't hurt if you're aware your KH is low in your source water, though unless we find the pH has been dropping even further, I don't think it's the reason for Gilbert's problems.

Had you swabbed the white stuff with iodine before it turned yellow?

Just to narrow down the possible causes, it could be possible that he was sitting at the bottom by his rock simply because he was sleeping, just waking up, or mabey ate too much food, I hope.

Dear Mary:

I hope that Gilbert is feeling better soon, and you can find out what is causing this. He sounds like a wonderful fish.

Jessica

Mary

This happened to me, go here .. http://kokosgoldfish.com/forum/index.php?s...?showtopic=4498

A very quick update - and thank you all!

Nick, Gilbert occasionally sleeps that way, but most of the time he's either hanging in the water or dozing at the top of the tank. So it wasnt' that - not sure of the rock.

Happygoldfish, I have retained your instructions but still wasn't able to look at his gills. I chickened out because I was afraid of hurting him, and I really think it will be a two-person job, so I'm waiting till after my sister's move, when she may be able to help me.

From what I could tell, his tummy was rather firm. His slime coat felt sticky and a bit heavy. So I decided to be conservative - I'm keeping up the water changes and I added the therapeutic amounnt of salt back in, plus a couple of extra tablespoons. I'm keeping him on the metro-med for two months. So far, so good; he's swimming normally, eating well, and the waxy stuff on his dorsal has diminished. The white patches in front of his dorsal are still there, but they're no worse, and he hasn't lost any more scales or developed any more tears in his fins. I think maybe he's had a really persistent and/or recurrent parasite problem that has caused most of these symptoms and led to the bacterial stuff. I wish I did know what he really has, but at any rate he's a little better! Yay!

BTW, when I last took him out of the tank, I did try to wipe off the waxy stuff with iodine again. No immediate result - the salt seems to have helped more - but it didn't do any harm, I think.

Water parameters: His PH remains at 7.4 to 7.6; quite a bit higher than the water from the tap. Ammonia and nitrites are finally zero again, for a week or two now, and nitrates are 10. His temp is about 75% F.