Hi,

Just got a new water test kit. I used to use the strips but someone told me the liquid drop kits are cheaper to use and more accurate. Just did a water change and tested the water after the change. To my surprise, the ammonia level, which had always been 0 with the strips was .25! Could this be caused by vacuuming the gravel? Also, according to this test kit, my nitrates are only 5 when previously they were always at 20. Another thing that concerns me. The ph reads 8.0 which is what the strips indicated as well. However, the instruction manual states that goldfish prefer 7.5. Is a ph of 8.0 bad for them? Why the discrepancies? Anybody got any suggestions?

Angela

oops. I think I posted under the wrong topic. If somebody wants to move this to the appropriate topic, I'd appreciate it.

Angela

What brand of test kit did you have and what kind to you have now? .25 ammonia can be dangerous, so if you have a dechlorinator that binds ammonia use it and do a waterchange. Is this tank new? A pH of 8 is just fine for goldfish

The test strips I had used were by Jungle. The new test kit is by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc. I'm using ammochips already. Prime apparently gets rid of or detoxifies ammonia. Should I use some of that? I just did a water change. Could stirring up the gravel cause a surge?

When I first started out, I used thos jungle test strips too. If I remember right, I had the exact innacuracy for the nitrates when comparing jungle to AP (I got that test kit next for the same reasons you were told). The drop tests are much more readable anyway, and don't keep changing colors!

Anyways...no, stirring up gravel will not cause an ammonia surge because it is already in there. Its like stirring up water with salt already dissolved in it...your moving it around, but the salinity won't change. All that could happen is that you move debris that was trapped under the gravel, so you need to syphon carefully, especially if its been longer than recomended since you last syphoned. I'm not positive how ammo-chips work...I know they detoxify ammonia, but does it let the ammonia cycle into nitrite and then nitrate? Ammo-chips will release all of the ammonia they are holding into the water if there is salt in the tank. What are the readings for your nitrites? Prime is an excellent water conditioner and I strongly recomend it, especially if you have ammonia or nitrites in your tank. Only a little bit is needed to detoxify ammonia, which means less waterchanges to keep it down when cycling, and less stress on you and your fishies.

Well, I think with your information I have found the root of the problem. I use ammochips in my filter. I didn't realize it releases ammonia if salt is added to the tank. I add the appropriate amount of salt with every water change. It probably released the ammonia after the salt was added! How do you avoid this problem? I do use prime to detoxify the water I use for water changes. I actually used a double dose yesterday to lower the ammonia levels. Seemed to work. I siphon the gravel every week (since pearlscales are such little poo machines), even though I only feed them a small amount, the size of their eye, each day. They seem to produce more waste than other goldfish. The nitrites in the tank are 0.

The ammochips are actually zeolite - a product that will bind ammonia from the water. It binds it in a compound that makes it impossible for the beneficial bacteria to use - the ammonia is removed from the tank for the fish, but for the cycling bacteria, also.

One way of cleaning the ammochips is to soak them in a brine bath. They will release all the ammonia that is bound. They can then be reused. IF you are using salt in your tank, depending on the concentration of salt and the "fullness" of the ammochips they can release amazing amounts of ammonia in a very short time.

I am concerned about a couple of things here that you have said, though. They all involve those same ammochips.

If you are using ammochips to keep the amount of ammonia in your tank down or to zero, your tank is not fully cycled (it may not be cycled at all!). Do you get nitrates? (I guess I read that you have 5 and used to have 20. This is good - it means you have some cycle going for you! )

If you are getting nitrates, then your beneficial bacteria ARE processing a certain amount of ammonia through to the nitrate stage. But if you have ammochips in the filter you guaranteededly do not have as much "cycle" as you could or should in that tank. Whenever the ammochips get "full" they cease to work and you can get an ammonia bump. Use salt, and you get a substantial bump.

The best thing for you to do is to remove ALL the ammochips from your filter. Do not use them. They are valuable if you are in a situation where you do NOT have a cycled tank (medicating), are not using salt, or need an extra help in an extreme case of emergency. Other than that, do not use them.

If you have any cycle in that tank (I am hoping that you do - and you probably should), removing the ammochips may result in a small bump in the ammonia, also. You can counteract this by a water change and/or use of Prime or Amquel+ or Amquel for a few days. (Prime will also bind some of the ammonia, making it non-toxic to the fish. But the big difference is that it leaves the ammonia available to your beneficial bacteria to process!) Your beneficial bacteria, if it is there, should quickly grow in numbers such that the colony is large enough, robust enough to easily handle all the extra ammonia that your fish produce.

Given sufficiant platform, there is no reason that you cannot grow a large enough colony to handle anything, even what LARGE fish can produce. Once that colony is well built, you will not even need the Prime or such, at least for ammonia/nitrite binding. It is still useful for chlorine, chloiamines, heavy metals, ets.

As far as pH goes, there is no reason whatsoever to mess with a pH of 8.0. GOldfish can and do live in a very wide range of pH as long as it remains stable. They do just fine. A REALLY high pH (9+), and consequently a high gH (300+) can sometimes make fish less than fertile. Different pHs can affect the toxicity of various medications. Ammonia is more toxic at higher pH.

Get those ammochips out. Baby your cycle for a few days, and all should be back to normal in a blink of an eye. Salt away as you need to, treat with Prime or such until the cycle grows to accomodate the extra ammonia, and you are good to go.

Good post Daryl, as always

Also one thing: sometimes tap water has trace amounts of nitrates. My tap has 5ppm nitrates..so I'm hoping that is from your tank and not the tap. Test the tap water to see, and then we will have a better idea where you are in the cycle.

Thanks for all the info! Once again, a case of misinformation from the fish store. I was told, when I started the tank 7 months ago, that I needed ammochips with the filter material. So you're saying all I really need is the foam and the carbon in the filter? If so, how often should they be changed? The guy at the lfs told me once every three months. I have a 40 gallon tall tank with two Aquaclear filters on it. Goldfish are two REALLY fat 3 inch pearlscales and one not so fat 3 inch crown pearlscale. Also, lots and lots of real plants.

Yeah, don't blindly listen to any fish store employee. Some really do know what they are talking about, but some just have no clue. Aquaclears are great filters, but you do not need ammo-chips. You never need to change the foam insert, just rinse it off. I don't use the carbon bags unless I'm removing meds or something, but those should be replaced more often then three months...about three weeks. However, you should have some bio-media in your filter. Buy some bio-max or bio-balls for aqua clear filters and keep them in the left over space in the filter. These are very important in housing the benaficial bacteria in your tank

Here's a link about the bio-media. Scroll down until you see the picture: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=40845

What % salinity do you have in your tank and for what?

I'll definitely invest in some biomedia. Should I put this in both filters? Salting the tank was recommended by the person I got the goldfish from. I follow the directions on the aquarium salt package: 1 rounded tablespoon for every 5 gallons of water. I don't know what percent this makes it. When I change the water (10 gallons) I add two tablespoons. As for the foam insert, I was told to change it every three months even if I rinse it (with tank water) at every water change. I was told it will eventually clog inside. Is this not the case?

Yes, you should put the media in both filters. I'm not sure if a little net baggie comes with it or not, but I got mine second hand and there were nets to keep the media secure. How long have you had your fish? Salting the tank is good for new arrivals or if you think your fish may have parasites, but it is not needed if you have healthy fish. I know some people do keep a low dosage of salt in the goldfish tanks as a preventative and to improve gill function, but as long as its not a high dosage, its fine. Most of us do not keep salt in our tanks permanently because goldfish are freshwater fish. The choice is yours whether you want to keep salt in there or not. I'm not entirely sure how much one rounded tablespoon per 5 gallons is, but it sounds low. 1 teaspoon per gallon is .1%.

If there is no gunk to clog the sponge, I don't see how it would clog

I've had the two pearlscales for about 3 months and the crown pearlscale about a month. The guy that I got the goldfish from suggested the salt in low doses as a preventative measure.

a p.h of 8.0 is still in neutal

Actually no its not...7 is considered perfectly neutral.