Hi, I'm new and I think I've been mistakenly posting my questions as replies instead of new topics - so I hope someone can help me.
I've been running my 32 gal tank, second hand, fishless tank for a week now and I'm not quite on top of the chemistry yet. As I've kept the gravel and filter media from the last owner, I already have some bacteria. So far, I've treated the water with tapsafe, tank cycle, some plant food (reasonably well planted tank) and anti-snail drops (a few unwelcome visitors in gravel and plants)
My tap water tests at 7.8 and for the past 3 days I've tested the tank water:
Day 1= PH 8.6, Amonia 0, Nitrite 0.25, Nitrate 20
Day 2 PH 8.6, Amonia 0, Nitrite-almost 0, Nitrate 80
Day 3 PH 8.2 Amonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 60
So what causes the tank PH to differ from the tap PH and what has made the Nitrate drop rather than rise? What is the best PH for goldies and a safe level of nitrate? When can I put in a hardy fish?
HELP!!! I feel like a nudnik

well hello there,

If i understand this correctly currently you have a 32gal Planted aquarium, with gravel and plants and nothing really else cept bacteria.

If i did understand that correctly than your nitrates are going into the plants and are being used as food for the plants.

now your anti-snail drops, are they 100% fish safe? if they're not or its unspecified, i would change the water completely before adding any fish.

Also, when you got this tank was the gravel kept wet? and filter media kept wet?
If they weren't then the bacteria would've all died and you would have to recycle your tank, which mite be a bit difficult because the plants will be eatting up all the ammonia you put in your tank.

Well, thanks for getting back. In answer, the gravel was kept wet but the filter media may have been pretty much dried by the time I set up. The gravel, infact, was so full of gunk (and clouded up the water after planting) that I took it all out after a couple of days and washed it. Then I replaced about a third of the water and let the tank run for a couple more days before testing the water. I'm pretty sure the snails drops were fish safe (but I've tossed the box and will have to double check with the store tomorrow) Also, any ideas about the PH question? Thanks so much for your help.

the gravel might be raising the pH. i don't know much about that because i don't have gravel in my aquariums.

when you washed the gravel, did you use tap water? and do you know if it has chloramine in it? that would kill off the bacteria.

i hope others on this forum see this and help you more
andy

Oh dear, I did wash it in tap water but I think I treated it with tap safe before putting it back into the tank. I also added some extra cycle solution. So, does PH become more alkaline in the absence of bacteria? The more I read the more I realise I know NOTHING! I don't yet have a test kit for chloramine so I'm not sure how bad it might be. What readings do I need to bring the PH and Nitrate to before I put in a hardy fishy? I sure am grateful for your help!

don't worry bout the chloramine test kit, its not really neccessary, idk if they even make one but your water supplier would know what they are putting into the water.

pH can be in a wide range because goldfish are quite adaptable. like 7-8 however at higher levels ammonia is more deadly
nitrate should be under 40 ppm

dead/no bacteria won't affect the pH.

what i meant was that if your gravel is calcium based then i believe your pH will be buffered and be Ok, it will raise your pH.

heres a nice article to read http://www.goldfishinfo.com/setup1.htm

i'm sorry this is soo brief, if you have questions i'll write more later

Hi,

Good pointers given, particularly on the possibility of gravel raising pH. You can easily check your gravel with some vinegar (outside the tank of course ). If it bubbles, it is calcium based. Depending on your tap water chemistry, this is not necessarily a bad thing.

Another cause could be carbon dioxide used by treatment plants to buffer down water. After a few days, the carbon dioxide escapes and your pH rises. You can check if this is the case by getting a sample of tap water and checking the pH over a number of days.

I'd suggest you put a source of ammonia to feed whatever good filter microbes are left, otherwise they'll starve to death. I've not tried it, but perhaps a pinch of fish food?

Good luck and do post back if you need more info.

Slugger

Thanks Slugger - maybe you can help me figure this out?
OK, I've checked all the gravel and rocks with vinager and no fizzing or anything - so that seems OK. So tonight I checked the tap PH again just to be sure and it reads 7.8 like before. But when I tested the water I've had standing for 24-36 hrs it also now reads 8.6 just like the tank water. If it's carbon-dioxide, shouldn't the PH rise after standing not drop - or am I being 'stoopid'?
(Just so we're speaking the same language, I'm assuming that when you say drop you mean increased alkalinity and rise = less?) What to do next? This seems too alkaline for the GF
PS Added a pinch of fish food like you suggested. How long before it turns into amonia?

Hi again,

When I say pH rise, I mean from 7.6 to 8.3, say. Sorry for the confusion.

I think alkalinity is related to, but slightly different to pH and it's measured using different test kits. For example, water can be of a high pH, but low alkalinity and vice versa.

In general, I tend not to use the alkalinity term because I confuse myself and usually refer to pH, GH (general hardness) and KH (carbonate hardness).

The pH of 8.6 is a little high, but as long as it is steady, GF should be OK. You might find it easier to maintain your tap water pH rather than try to force a pH onto your tank water.

For example, if your carbonate hardness (KH) is high, and you try to buffer down to 7.8, you may find that your pH will steadily creep back up between water changes. This yo-yoing of pH will definitely affect your GF.

Another thing to keep an eye out for is a pH crash, which happened to me a few years ago and wiped out my entire tank This affects established tanks, so monitor pH every day after your tank is cycled.

I myself haven't tried fishless cycling (I'm a bit sceptical), so can't really tell you much about it. Others on this site have done it with varying levels of success.

Looks like you're well on the way. Keep us posted.

Slugger

Wow, a PH crash - sounds terrible. What would cause that to happen?
Well, after this info, I think I'll get a GH and KH test kit just so I know the whole picture. I'd just assumed that a high score = harder, more alkaline water and lower = softer and more acidic. Like where I grew up, in Cornwall, the water is very acidic and soft which is why the rhodedendrons and azaleas grow like weeds, and if you wash your hands it takes about half an hour to get the soap off! Whereas in London, where I live now, the kettle is all furred up with limescale in no time.
Well, who'd have thought you needed to be a chemistry wonk just to keep a couple of goldfish? Thank God for the forum
PS Thanks for clarifying the PH question, now we're on the same page.

Wow, I didn't notice you are from London.

I lived in London, until 95 and still have some family there. Nice to meet a Londoner

Seeing as you're in London, I don't think you need to bother with the KH/GH test kits. The water is rock hard, so I think it would be safe to say you'll have enough KH to buffer against pH movements either up or down.

I remember the cold snap in December/January would always mess up the swim bladders of my goldfish. I used to live in an old house with creaky floorboards, no double glazing or central heating. We'd get morning frost indoors!!

A pH crash happens when your tap water is low in KH and your tank has established enough microbes to process ammonia to nitrites to nitrates. This process is acidic and will react with any bi-carbonates in your water (this is the KH). Once all these bi-carbonates are used up, the acidic process will draw down the pH of the tank water. The draw down in pH happens very quickly, so its called a pH crash. To avoid this, you've just got to make sure you have enough bi-carbonates in the tank (KH).

Slugger

Thanks a million. This has all been very informative and helpful I think I've got the basics now.
The creaky floorboards and no CH brought back memories - pretty grim! I swear England is still stuck in 40's, even now! My friend bought a house in Fulham recently which still had an outside loo!
I guess it'll be fish after Xmas at this point. I'll let you know........

Ignore this I posted accidentally- duh!