Hello Fish Enthusiasts!

I'm new to your website, and thought I would introduce myself and share something I think readers might find cool.

About 8 months ago, my 9-year old son won two goldfish at a school fair (I know - school fair contests where fish are the prize is about as cruel as you can get - we considered it our duty to rescue a couple). I started carefully observing them and it quickly became apparent to me that there is something going on in their little minds. Ever since then I've been fascinated by fish intelligence. After a little research, I discovered there is quite a bit of scientific evidence that fish are smarter than people give them credit for.

So about six months ago, on a whim, we purchased a handsome calico fantail. We named him Albert (short for Albert Einstein), and set about to see what we could teach him. Long story short, he has proven to be a remarkable student in "fish school", and has learned to perform what I consider to be some pretty impressive behaviors.

For starters, he will eat directly from my hand - a simple behavior but one I find strangely gratifying. It gives me a feeling of being much more connected to him - more like the feeling a cat or dog owner experiences I suspect.



More impressive, Albert has learned to swim through a hoop and a tunnel several times as long as his body. Their diameter is not much bigger than his body, so he has to turn on his side and tuck in his fins to squeeze through. It is really amusing to watch - as you can see from this image.



Albert can even do the limbo, push a soccer ball into a goal, and push a football "down field" and across a goal line. No joking - see for yourself:



He has learned it all through positive reinforcement and shaping. We've given him small bits of food reward whenever his actions even approximate the desired behavior. Over time we've been able to shape his behavior into some pretty cool tricks.

My son and I have been so intrigued and excited by Albert's success that we've set up a web site devoted to fish intelligence and training. If you want to be amused, check out these photos and videos of Albert doing his tricks:

http://www.fish-school.com/gallery.htm

For anyone still skeptical, we even have a live webcam on Albert's "show tank." At certain times of day, you can watch me putting Albert through his paces:

http://www.fish-school.com/webcam.htm

I'd love feedback from people on their experiences with fish intelligence and training.

Does anyone else on this forum have goldfish that show signs of intelligence? Have you trained them to do anything interesting?

Do you have experience comparing the intelligence of goldfish with other species? We've recently started similar training of my son's two albino oscars, and don't tell him, but it appears to me that Albert is smarter. I wonder if this is a general rule between the two species.

Do you know of other evidence for fish intelligence? I found a bunch of links to articles and scientific studies on fish intelligence, which are listed here http://www.fish-school.com/links.htm. Do you know of others?

Looking forward to hearing from you!

Dean Pomerleau
Pittsburgh, PA

Ok. That is officially awesome. I applaud you for taking the time for that.

My only fish who even attempted to learn something passed away, though, and this new bunch arent very bright...

LOL I knew it sounded like an infomercial! nice site.




Cute tricks.

Thanks for the kudos. Fish training is a lot of fun!


So what kind of fish was it, and what did he (she?) attempt to learn? Was it spontaneous learning, or deliberate training on your part?

She was a chocolate oranda, turning orange. I never actually tried to teach her anything. She learned to feed from my hand, swim into my hand so I could take her out for water changes (back when I still took them out) which was pretty neat. That was when she was alone. Then when I introduced a tiny red capped oranda (only one of my original three I still have), she taught the red cap to eat from my hand as well. Ever sense she died, though, the red cap refuses to school with other fish or pay attention to me, poor little dear.

I miss Puggy so much.

Sorry for your loss. I've heard about fish training other fish - a sort of "social learning". In fact, here is a review article (pdf format) on the scientific evidence for social learning among fish:

Social Learning Review (pdf)

and another short discussion of social learning among guppies:

Guppy Social Learning

Here is a cool article about how haddock can learn to evade a net by watching other haddock:

Haddock Escape Net

Fish are really much smarter than people give them credit for.

That is really cool! My black moor lost interest in eating out of my hand because since my fantail died he doesn't have to race for the food. It was fun while it lasted. Also the cap on the hood is so darn small!, i can barely stick my hand in.

It is amazing to me how the behavior of fish are influenced by their tankmates. My son has two albino oscars we are training, and the bigger one (Snow) seems to wait for the smaller one (Ice) to swim through the hoop, at which time he swoops in and tries to steal the food reward. Pretty crafty of him...

--Dean

May I say that is the coolest thing ever! I'm interested in teaching fish tricks as well. I could use some tips, I'm planning on teaching my black neon tetras to jump thru a hoop. I just started a couple days ago, and what I do is I stick a hair rubber band in the water and put some food on the opposing side. After they understand the concept that swimming thru a hoop in the tank = treats, I plan to inch the hoop up more and more until it is above the surface. Once the hoop reaches half in and half out of the water, I'll attatch some sort of compartment for the fish to jump into, and there they will receive their treats. It seems very possible...what do you think? I don't have any goldfish right now, but when I get some, I'm going to try to teach them a few tricks as well. People are so amazed that fish, especially goldfish, can be taught ANYTHING at all. You might want to get your fish a bigger hoop. If he is squeazing thru the hoop it could be taking part of his slime coat off, leaving him more suseptible to disease.

I had 2 common goldfish until they died of what we figured was fluke During water changes, my larger one would come up and suck on my finger LoL I don't know why it did that but it was funny. After that, I noticed she would come up and eat from my hand at feedings. I did nothing to train them o.0

My current male betta takes food directly from my hand has well and was not trained. I was dropping in a bloodworm for him one day and he popped his head out of the water and grabbed it. Guess he saw it coming or something! He's been doing that ever since though as well which is so cute! Wish I had a picture

I don't think it's much of a trick, my one of my female guppies will chase my finger around the side of the tank. she's been doing that for awhile, but none of the others seem to be interested.

Neat site, by the way! I glanced over it and will take another look later tonight when I have more free time!

Thanks!

That sounds very possible, from my experience, although I've never tried training a tetra. Do they seem intelligent?

Regarding the sequence of steps you outlined, they are very similar to the sequence outlined in the Fish School Training System (FSTS) we've developed. The challenge you may encounter is that your fish may try to scoot around the edge of the hoop to snatch up the food on the other side. The FSTS comes with a specially designed "feeding wand" that allows you to precisely control the amount, location and timing of the food reward. It can be seen on the picture on the right on this page:

http://www.fish-school.com/catalog.htm

Here are a couple close-up pictures of the feeding wand to give you and idea of what it is like:






You put pellets or flakes inside the chamber, so that when you push down on the plunger at the top, the green segment you see in the picture telescopes out of the red tube and releases the food right in front of the fish you want to reward, when you want to reward him.

I've also observed how the feeding wand can be very useful for getting food to shy fish or bottom dwellers that otherwise are beat out for the food. It is also useful for feeding fish below the surface, to prevent them from gulping air - a serious problem, particularly for some species (like certain goldfish).


The hoop that comes with the FSTS has an adjustable diameter. It is made from smooth rubber tubing and seems quite non-abrasive. Albert has been swimming through it for several months, without any apparent slime coat trouble.

That is exactly how I chose Albert my goldfish - by seeing which fish followed my finger most persistently when I moved it around the front of the tank at the pet fish store. He has turned out to be very bright!

very cool man. you should post something in the goldfish discussion section of this site if you haven't already. i think there are more people reading posts in there.

neat idea for the feeding wand too.

Thanks Justin,

I wasn't sure where it would be appropriate to post to one of the goldfish forums, since fish training isn't goldfish specific. And now that the thread is started here, is it bad etiquette to post again about it in a different forum? Is there a way to bring this thread to the attention of a wider audience, without "ticking" people off? Perhaps a short post with a pointer to this thread? What golfish forum do you think would be most appropriate? Goldfish Discussion? Goldfish Tanks (DIY)?

I'm a little reluctant to post again myself. since I'm new around here and I don't want to "upset" anyone off. Perhaps a more seasoned and respected member of this community who is intrigued and thinks others might be as well, would be willing to post something about this stuff to one of the more widely-read goldfish-oriented forums? - hint, hint

edited for swearing by LaurieP.

Hmmm...I wonder if a mod could move this thread? I'll ask.

Sure I can move it. This is a wonderful topic and would do well in the gf forum.

Just an fyi though, we try to watch our language here there are alot of younger members and Koko's is a very family oriented site.
But welcome, we love to share our experiences on gf and learn what other have done!!!

Thanks Laurie!

And suddenly we were beamed up to the big leagues. Feels like Star Trek! Thanks LaurieP. I love talking about this stuff - and I'll watch my tongue

Oh my stars that is soooo cool. I can't wait for my kids to get up tomorrow morning so I can show them this video.

Beautiful calico fantail BTW!!

Cool stuff, thanks for posting! Albert is gorgeous!

The fish I have right now are still getting used to their new home, I adopted them from another Koko's member two weeks ago. But I always thought the fish I had as a pre-teen were pretty smart.

They ate from my fingers and two of them would follow my finger around the tank. One of them would also swim in a circle around my finger if I stuck in the water a little. I did not try and teach them to do this, it was just something that happened, But who knows what they would've done had I actually tried to train them!

When I moved my current fish into their new tank last night, I only moved one at first, to make sure the new tank was ok before adding all of them. He was pretty freaked out, and went all over the tank darting everywhere. He was like that pretty much constantly until I added the other fish. I think he was looking for them and stressed that they were gone. When one of my old fish (as mentioned above) passed away, the other fish really seemed depressed. So I definitely think they are aware of their surroundings and their tankmates.

I definitely think fish (some at least ) are very intelligent. Keep up the great work with Albert.

yea, i was hoping a mod could move it; but i didn't want to ask before seeing if you wanted it moved.

maybe all our goldies need is a little training. like with some dog breeds (german shepherds and the like) they need to be trained, to have that mental stimulation, or they get bored.

thanks for all the great info too, i'll have to look at some of it tomorrow when i've got more time. thanks laurie for movin trainer's post here too, i know a lot of members will be interested. plus (and i can't believe i'm saying this) i would think tropicals would prove more difficult to train. not that it couldn't be done, but just my opinion.

That is awesome indeed! I wish I could train my fish to do tricks like that....

My husband did somehow teach them to get into a net during feeding so that he can monitor the food they eat and that they will all get their fair share.It was funny because the moment he drops the net in the tank,they go crazy and all want to jump in(I'm sure they're just hungry though...) But that was a long time ago....now we handfeed them instead

To have the patience to teach ur goldfish to do those tricks...wow!

I only have one thing that resembles anything like goldfish doing tricks, or at least understanding the situation and react accordingly to it:
I always soak the pellets I'm going to give to my goldfish in a blue plastic spoon with the tank water. Whenever I opened the aquarium hood to scoop some water in the spoon, the fish started dancing and swimming to the top, expecting food. But the second they saw the blue spoon entering the water, they stopped dancing, as if knowing that 1st blue spoon=no food. When I finished soaking the pellets and put the spoon in again to feed them, they know that there's food this time, as if knowing that 2nd blue spoon=food!!

That is very cool. I've been thinking of tryign to train Albert to swim into a net, particularly since I transfer him between his "home" tank and his show/training tank nearly every day. Glad to hear it can be done!

That sounds almost like "delayed gratification" to me. They seem to have learned that it is a waste of effort to go for the first blue food, and instead realize that waiting for the second one will bring the prize (food).

This reminds me of Christof Koch's work at Caltech on the neural correlates of consciousness. Here is a link to an interview with Koch on how to identify/measure consciousness in animals (the topic of his very good book "The Quest for Consciousness"), and how to find the neural correlates of consciousness in the brain using a "delayed gratification" test:

Koch Interview on Consciousness (pdf)

Koch's basic suggestion is to see if a creature can hold in their mind a persistent representation of the world and reason from it - what he considers to be a basic level of consciousness. As applied to fish, this might take the form of the following "delayed gatification" experiment. Specifically, can a fish learn that a certain signal (e.g. a colored card held up to the tank) indicates the potential for an small immediate food reward. But if the holds off from taking the little prize for a few seconds, it can have a much bigger reward.

Koch believe this form of mental processing is the primative equivalent of consciousness - the ability to model the world and manipulate this representation to one's own advantage. He notes that certain animals (dogs, cats, marine mammals, perhaps even mice) seem to possess this ability to delay gratification, but that humans don't always master it!

The question in my mind is - do fish possess this ability to consciously delay gratification too? From what I've seen in Albert, I wouldn't be surprised, and I aim to find out.

That sounds like a very good experiment! I've always been interested in fish intelligence..I think it is greatly missunderstood. Please keep us posted on your delayed concious experiment. When I get goldfish again, I'll see if I can try that too I'm not sure if it will work, but if it does, it will prove that goldfish are MUCH smarter than people give them credit for: in a sense, they can make choices!

My tetras don't seem as intelligent as the goldfish I've had in the past, and maybe a little less than my betta. I'd attempt it with my betta, but he has some long term health issues so I don't want any chance of stressing him or hurting himself. However, I'm almost positive they are intelligent enough to learn the more simple tricks, especially my dominant female. They have been hand fed for quite some time, and they know when I pick up the food jar its food time. Same with my betta.

Just showed my kids. I think we watched each video at least 5 times!!

So, my friends (except for my downstairs neighbor - SilverSurfer) all think I'm since all I talk about for the last 2 months is fish! NOW I can't wait to tell them about this! I am so !!! How incredibly cool and fun.

Thanks so much for posting and for everyone's comments about their experience and plans for fish training!

S~

Lol saivite. Welcome to the fishy world. Everyone else thinks we are nuts

Do you know anything about training fish to react to...well, I guess it would be vibrations for them? I have a mostly blind fish that I have to hand feed, and I have been trying to teach him that when I tap on the glass its dinner time. So far, I still have to reach in and get his attention so that I can feed him. He isn't the brightest of fish...

For my high school Psychology class, we had to perform a "Pet Experiment" and classically condition one of our pets. I didn't have a lot of time or materials, so it wasn't as impressive as playing soccer, but I did teach all three of my goldfish to swim into an empty water bottle to eat. It was nice because I could easily remove all the food they didn't eat.

I made a movie about it, so if you're interested you can download it here:
http://possibilitybox.com/Members/thoughts...riment.mov/view

I guess I have more work to do with my fish.

I haven't had experience with blind fish personally, and this may be entirely irrelevant, but at least *certain* blind fish (naturally blind cave fish) are quite intelligent, or at least adept at constructing and exploiting a mental map of their environment. See this article for details:

Blind Cave Fish Map Learning

They use minute changes in pressure to sense and negotiate around obstacles in their environment. They learn the location of these obstacles, and can reason about avoiding them in the future. Fascinating stuff.

So perhaps there is hope for your nearly blind fish. Good luck!

Cool project, and practical too! Unfortunately I couldn't get the movie to play. How big was the opening in the bottle relative to the fish? Was it a tight squeeze? Did they all three go in at once?

It sounds a bit similar to the way I got Albert to swim through the tunnel, shown here:

Video of Albert Swimming through Tunnel (500K MPEG)

To get him to go through initially, I released floating food pellets inside the tunnel. They'd float to the roof of the tunnel, and serve as a "lure" to encourage Albert to venture through. Worked like a charm.

Oh our dear goldies are such suckers for food!!

Do you think that's what's wrong with Cracker? That she isn't being stimulated enough?

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=38043

Interesting research. I often wonder how much you can teach them. my calico fantail Braveheart also ate from my fingers while sitting in the palm of my hand when it was very sick and on the tank bottom. It miraculously survived the ick and now is very tame always coming to my hand when i put the food in for him (he had babies last year with a molly) and his tankmates. I think fish iq is high and underestimated!!

FishTrainerGuy, that is like.. WOW! i might just have to get that little training set one day
i love the soccer one!

I have another question. How do you keep from overfeeding him if you use food rewards?

Good question. I train Albert quite a bit, since his training tank is next to me all day on my desk at work (in fact you can see him now doing the limbo @ http://www.fish-school.com/webcam.htm).

The way I avoid overfeeding is to reward him using the "Baby" size pellets (Hikari Gold). I put 3-4 in the feeding wand. Given Albert's size, and the size of those pellets, I can give him such a reward every couple minutes all day and he won't get filled up, or overfed! Depending on the size of the fish you are training and the frequency / duration of your training sessions, you may need to adjust the size of the reward.

Ermmm Trinket, goldfish and mollies can't mate??

I hear with dogs, it doesn't matter how big the treat is, as long as its a treat. They'll do the same amount of work for 1/4 of a bone treat as an unbroken one. I'm guessing the same for fish...you only need a tiny tiny bit, as long as it tastes yummy

This is really excellent work! And a fun site, too; I downloaded the little tunnel movie. All I have trained my fish to do is to eat from my hand, and all four learned this very readily. Had thought of doing more with Gilbert, (Mom says he practically talked to me - he was my first goldfish, a black moor) but the poor little guy was sick most of his life - swim bladder disorder. Maybe I'll try with Charlie when he gets over the finrot It would be cute to see him swimming through a hoop, and I think they do get bored and like a challenge. They certainly are very food oriented!

I hope Charlie gets better soon. It sounds like he might be a quick learner. It is amazing to me how motivated fish are for a little bit of food. Our Oscars literally attack the feeding wand as soon as I insert it into the tank! Albert the calico fantail is a little more civilized, perhaps because he's in a tank by himself, so doesn't have to compete for the reward.

OMG ... this was posted on another site:



that suggests that goldfish memory is very bad.
Myself it suggests that as long as you reward a fish with food it can do simple tricks......I would doubt that attributes to a prolonged goldfish intelligence. I understand all the links with fish and animal behaviour but unfortunately I will not be parting with my 19.99 for the kit

JUST MY 20 CENTS

stu

I dont see how that suggests goldfish memory is very bad. Could you explain more?

I knew goldfish were smart!!!

My fantail Cody and his tankmate (my she RIP) were so cute together. When she was really sick, he would try to force feed her by spitting food in her mouth. He really missed her at first when she was gone.

We finally figured out why he has a preference for this one corner of the tank - its the side of the tank right above where the fish food containers are stored - so he just wiggles in that corner.

He eats from my hand too, which seems pretty common with people who make the effort to bond with their fish. He also only likes ornaments that he can move around - he noses river stones around the tank that are the same size as him.

My bettas like to play hide and seek and play dead, hide and seek is much more fun to me!! But playing dead is apparently more amusing for them.

For anyone interested in hearing more about fish training, my son and I are going to be on the Pet Fish Talk internet radio program this Wednesday at 4pm Eastern time. To listen in live, go here: http://www.petfishtalk.com.

It should be fun. I might even set up the live webcam so we can show the oscars swimming through their hoop during the show (see http://www.fish-school.com/gallery.htm for a preview).

If you miss the live show, you should be able to listen to it in the show's archives shortly after it airs.

Aww I've got school. Can you give the link to the show archive when its ready?