OK, I am sorry I have so many questions.

I am so frustrated right now. I changed my filter pad for the first time today. For starters I didn't know there was carbon inside the bio-bag and so I rinsed that off into the tank. Great.

Well, also I moved the filter and now I don't remember how it was situated. In the directions it says it is supposed to have the lip of the filter above the top of the tank water. This is an in-tank filter, and I cannot figure out how to set it up that way! The hook that is supposed to sit over the edge of the tank makes it way too low, using the suction cup won't keep it high enough. If I lower the water level that won't be good for the fish, and the undergravel tube things will be below water. I feel so dumb right now, this is my second stupid thing tonight. Now the tank is all cloudy from me messing around with everything, I hope I didn't destroy the cycle.

Does the filter lip need to be above the water level, so it waterfalls into the tank? (making a little splash?) I think it was that way before. Does anyone know what I am talking about? This is a Whisper 40i in-tank filter. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

OK, I am fine now, just worried that the fish aren't getting what they need.

Deep breath Jen, deep breath.

Thanks for putting up with me guys, you all rock. :-)

I found this, that gives you a bit of info on the filter and how to hang it. Not much info, but some....

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod...86&N=2006+22768

It would seem to me that you could bend the hanging wire so that the filter outlet just touches the water surface. The suction cups can be hangers by themselves or in addition to the hanging wire bracket - as backup.

How big/tall is your tank? MMaybe it is built for a taller/bigger tank?

You had it before, though, correct? It should fit, unless you added more gravel or something to shorten the height of the available space.....

Hmmmmmmmmm....

I've got 10i's and if the 40i is pretty much the same you can bend the hook that the holds the filter up, its made of plastic... and the suction cups slide around, I think the only thing they do is hold it the side of the tank so the whole thing doesn't flip over.

I usually run mine with the spout at water level. My roommate has a 3i and hers sits just below water level and it still works great. I think so long as the water level doesn't go over the top of the filter media you should be fine

Thanks to both of you! I asked Joanna (who had the fish before) and she said she had the lip a little below the water level, and that it worked fine, as long as the media was sticking out. I took the hook off and used the second suction cup that was in the box and was able to get it up high enough anyway. I may try bending the hook like you guys suggested since that would make it more stable. Cherry, my giant fish, is strong enough to knock it off the suction cups, so I want it to be really secure. I can't have it the filter too high up either, because I have a glass hood and it needs to be on right so my kitties can't get in! :-)

I just felt dumb because I couldn't remember how it was set up before I moved it! This filter IS pretty large for this tank, as Daryl suggested. It is made for a 30-40 gallon (so it says, although it is only 170 gph) and I have it in a 10 right now. Being an in-tank filter is does take up a lot of tank space. I am getting the 20 gallon cycled and that tank will have a new filter, so that will be a good thing. Plus, I think I am going to get a 55 gallon for Christmas, so the fish will have an even better home. Then I could put a little black moor and a calico fantail in the 20....

This hobby sure is addictive! Thanks for your help, as usual!

When they say for a "30-40" gallon tank, they are using tropical fish type gauge. For a goldie - a 10 gallon tank needs at least 100gph. Since you have an overstocked 10, with those beautiful, lucky fish, the 170gph is just fine for what you are doing!

I am glad you are so addicted - it is fun, is it not?

Very FUN and yes, VERY addictive! A few weeks ago I had a fantail in a 1.8 gallon Spongebob tank, with no clue how to care for it, and my mistake is what took him to his demise, I am pretty sure. :-(

But now he gets the credit for helping me find this site, and then getting my new adopted fish, and learning everything I have here!

I will probably get a new filter for the 20 gallon, that is at least 200 gph, keep the 40i Whisper in the 10, and then, when I *hopefully* get a 55 gallon for Christmas, I will get a good filter for that as well. I should have the 20 gallon up and running (with your awesome advice, thanks Daryl!) in another week or two. So they will be a bit happier at least, until I get the 55.

Then I will probably put all four of the commons into the 55 gallon (still small, but way better than all of them in a 10!) and maybe get a black moor and/or a calico fantail for the 20. My daughter really wants the calico and I want a moor. But we'll see how I do with these fish first, before I start adding more!

I had a few more questions from another post you were helping me on regarding filters, if you have the time:

I priced a few filters today, although I don't remember seeing the Emperor one you mentioned. Here is what I found:

Penguin 200 Bio-wheel Power filter 200 gph $39.99

Aqua Clear 50 Cycle guard w/ Bio-max 200 gph $37.99

Cascade 300 Bio-falls Filtration System 300 gph $49.99

Whisper 60 Mechanical/Chemical/Biological Filtration 330 gph $41.99

I thought those might be good for the 20 gallon, and they are all the out-of-tank style. I will look for the Emperor you mentioned as well. I planned to check online prices (at Big Al's and other places) for all of them anyway, since I know they can probably be found cheaper.

I keep hearing that you want to have a bio-wheel...is the bio-falls and bio-max stuff mentioned in the other brands the same type of thing? I wasn't sure if bio-wheel was specific to the Penguin brand or if it was a particular type of filter part.

One more thing, I have stuff crammed in my filter in the 10 gallon tank, trying to get bacteria to cycle the 20 gallon the way you explained in my other post. In case I have to wait awhile to get the new filter, I may use the 40i filter in the 20 for a bit, and the 20i in the 10 So once the media has been in the 10 gallon filter for 2 weeks like you said, can I move the entire 40i filter over to the 20 and put the 20i filter in the 10 with the transferred media? Will that work? If I am confusing you, just let me know. I will probably be able to get a new filter before then anyway.

Thanks again!

The only part that I do not understand is....." use the 20i filter in the 10 with the transferred media"....

You have the 40i on the 10 right now and it has extra media. You then take the 40i and move it to the 20 gallon tank, putting the 20i in the 10. That is fine. As long as some "seasoned" media remains in each of the two filters, you will be a good step on your way to a cycled tank. Given food, oxygen, and warmth, the beneficial bacteria will grow to take care of the waste they encounter in the tank they are in.

IF you are in doubt of the 20 being cycled, you can test and grow your bacteria with pure ammonia, until you get fish.

I think, but am not sure, that "bio-wheel" is a word coined by the AQ for thier wheels. It is a common feature, though - a pleated wheel of material that turns, exposing its surfaces to oxygen and the ammonia/nitrite filled water alternately. It works nicely - but has limited surface area - I prefer to have more than just the biowheel whenever possible.

I really like the 280 Emperor - it has a built in area for extra media - a little basket to hold it. As I understand, though, they have redesigned most of their filters recently and now most either have that extra basket or a place for one if you purchase it separately. That was the big selling point for the Emperor as opposed to the smaller Penguins - the penquins did not have extra places for media. If this has been addressed in the newer models, then it becomes simply a matter of what fits, what works for you and what prices you want to work with.

I know I am probably confusing you, too! We will just keep talking until we get it all straightened out, ok?

Cant she just put both filters and the gravel (at least some) in the 20 gal with the fish? It will seed both filters if they are not already both seeded, it will be cycled since she would be moving a cycled filter over with the gravel so her fish dont have to stay in the 10 gal while she cycled it.

I know Jen wants to have 3 fish in the 20 and 1 in the 10 but isn't it better if she would just have all of them in the 20 until she gets the 55 gal in a little over a month instead of them having to be in a tiny 10 gal all this time?

Thanks again guys! And no, Daryl, I am not confused, at least not by anything you said! On other things, definitely...

I think you guys are right and I should just put all the fish into the 20 until I get the 55. When I talked about keeping one fish in the 10, that was before the 55 gallon was even a thought. Since then I have become very addicted!

So are you guys saying if I just move the 40i filter into the 20 gallon tank, maybe with some of the gravel, that it will just carry over the cycle? If so, I will move them right away! There is a ugf in the 10 gallon as well, and I am sure it has some crud in it that I could drip into the tank if you think that would be helpful. I actually do not want gravel in the 20 gallon, I have some nice river rocks that Jpoanna gave me that are hopefully to big for the fish to put in their mouths (which is what they do with the gravel i have now). But if using some of the gravel will help the cycle that is fine, i can take it out later.

If that is the case, I will just put both filters in the 20 gallon, at least for awhile. The only bad thing about having both of them is that they are in-tank filters and take up a lot of the swimming space for the fish. I was thinking of getting a better filter for that tank anyway, since 200 gph or more would be better. But maybe it would be more economical to save up for a nice filter for the 55 gallon. That would probably be money better spent, because at the most, I might end up putting two fancies in the 20 after the giants are moved into the 55. Do you think that is a smart idea?

Would two fancies (small ones, a fantail and a moor) be ok in the 20 gallon with only the 170 gph filter? Or I guess with smaller fish I could put the 20i on too and then it would be plenty of filtration. The other thing is, they have a nice, cheap 55 gallon tank at Walmart that comes with a filter, I forget what brand it was, but I think it was over 200 gph. I could buy that setup, then use the filter that comes with it for the 20 gallon, and buy a nice, quality one for the 55. Are you following me? LOL, I am always very scattered.

Let me know if I can just move that filter and maybe some gravel into the 20 gallon, and if so, I will move them tomorrow or sooner!

I think I already asked Daryl this, and he said no, but I don't want to use a ugf in the 20 right? It is a brand new tank, and it came with the ugf. Would the fish be better off without it? It's the kind with the grid thing on the bottom, then has two tubes that come up to the top and have carbon (or some black rocks) at the top ends. On the 10 gallon (which has the same ugf) I have the air hoses hooked up to the ugf tubes, so air goes through there somehow as well. From what I understand, I should not use the ugf in the 20 gallon, so just confirm that with me again before I start adding stuff into it.

I tried to bold my main questions so it was easier to read, hope I didn;t confuse you guys! Thanks again for all your awesome help. :-)

~Jen

If it was me I would just move everything over, which I have done in the past without any problems but if you want you can still see what Daryl (or someone else) thinks.

I think that is a great idea to buy the 55 gal from walmart and use the filter you get with that for the 20. Hopefully by the time you get that both of the filters you have now would be seeded and you can move the 40i over to the 55 gal with the new filter you would get for it and would help that cycle along. And you could leave your other smaller filter in the 20 with the new filter from the 55 gal setup and help that cycle along. Hope that made as much sense as it did in my head

I have never used an UGF so I cant really say anything about that other then I have heard a lot of people say they aren't good but then I have heard some people say they love them. I guess it really depends on how its set up and how good you clean it. I would just not use it though, as long as you have other areas for the bio bugs to colonize that I dont think its necessary.

Hopefully I answered all your questions and you understand everything

My eyes are spinning in my head!

I was still thinking that you were going to leave the 10 running....

Yes - you can move both filters over to the 20 - even though they take up space, at this time, the bio-filtration they can provide is probably more valuable. Rinse the gravel in used fish water so you to not transfer any gunk that you do not have to take. EVery bit of gunk that you remove from the tank is that much less waste your bio-filters must process - leading to nicer, cleaner water for your fish.

Do NOT take the UGF - I do not think you would be pleased with its work or the way you would have to run or clean it. There are ways of making them work well, but is it a bit picky and takes a bit of finagaling to get it all set up right. You would need to be careful in cleaning, etc. I do not think it is worth it at all.

Do NOT take any of the gunk that is under the UGF plate - that is often toxic stuff - waste that has broken down in the absence of oxygen - and it could harm the fish. Besides - it just means more ammonia. THink of all the gunk in the tank as ammonia. Every bit that you can leave behind is that much less your biofilter has to process and that much less nitrate that you will have to change from the tank.

Your 20 gallon tank would do better with a bigger filter than a 170. You could add the 10i and the 40i both to it, but, since they are in-tank filters, they take up valuable space. I think better to stash them for back up filters. (as a goldie keeper you will soon find that your "stash" grows exponentially!)

The one the comes with the 55 sounds like it might handle the 20 and then you can get a couple of good workhorses for the 55. There are very few filters that are big enough to handle a 55 by themselves. You are probably going to need several. Multiple filters are actually a good thing. You can hang one at either end of the tank, spreading the currents more gently and widely. You will have a backup filter already working in case one fails, etc. I have a Eheim something or other (my brain is fried today) along with two Emperor 280s on my 56 tank.

Cool, thanks you guys!

And Daryl, originally I was planning on leaving the 10 gallon running (so you aren't crazy!), but I think since they will go to the 55 eventually, I might as well just keep them all in the 20 for now, instead of leaving one in the ten. I figure their new home will be twice as good as the old, so they should be ok for 6 weeks or so. Less work to just keep one tank going. And I definitely won't use the ugf that came with the 20.

The 55 is not 100% definite, but pretty likely. It would be my present to myself! I need to find a good, safe place to put it since I don't know if a stand is possible at this point, both space wise and money wise. I have a solid wood lift top chest that could hold 500-600 pounds, but I am not sure if it is long enough. I also have a dresser that may work, it has a mirror behind it too so that might look kind of cool. I am thinking about a barebottom for the 55, at least at first, since it would be easier to clean and no gravel expense. So all I would need is a nice filter for it, and I hinted to my mom and dad that a pet store gift certificate or cash for one would be a good present for me.

Well, since you guys think it'll be ok, I think I will go ahead and move them tonight or tomorrow! They will be so happy in their new home (I think) and thanks to you guys for all the great tips. :-)

Jen

Ok, a few new developments that have been going on, I thought I'd post them here too in case you guys have any ideas on what is going on and as an update. Jen w. has been giving me great advice on the Water Quality board, under my "Ph problems' post, but since it applies here too, I thought I'd add it

I have not moved the fish into the 20 gallon tank yet. On a whim i decided to test the tank water and tap water and make sure they were close enough, since the fish will be going into almost all new water when moved.

My tap water is 7.2
Tank water is 6.0

From what I understand, you don't want more than a .2 difference to keep the fish safe and not shock them. I am not sure why this is happening,

I am leaving some tap water out for 24 hours, then seeing what the ph is to see if it is doing it on its own, unrelated to the tank (on Jen W.'s advice)

The other params of my tank were this when I tested the ph last night:

Ph 6.0
Ammonia .25
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 10

After doing two 50% water changes in 24 hours after the above test, I got this:

Ph 6.4
Ammonia .50
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 10

So not sure what is up and why the ph is lowering so much. From what I have read it seems that the lower ph does have good thing going for it, and that is that it makes the ammonia less toxic to the fish, but it is not what I want for the ideal ph, right?

I use Prime water conditioner, is that one of the ones that throws off ammonia tests? I use the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Master Kit. Also, does Prime alter the water ph at all?

Just wondering if either of you had any thoughts on this, in case you didn't see my other thread. If my tap water ph drops after sitting out, I will just fill the 20 and leave it until the ph is close enough to add the fish. Plus I will keep doing 50% water changes twice a day to try and get the ph of the current tank up.

Thanks for any ideas on this :-)