Hi, I would appreciate any help. I have a 55 gallon tank with one common goldfish who is about 10 inches long. I have an aquatec filter and and undergravel filter running. His illness started about 3 years ago. Every once and a while he becomes very ill - when ill he usually sits at the bottom and is very inactive, except for breif darting activity where he crashes against the tank walls. He also always has a red streak on his mouth and his lips appear to be peeling. He also never eats when he is sick, except somtimes he will eat a couple pees. He then usually gets better after a few days and is healthy for 3- 6 months until he gets sick again. I have noticed that he usually gets sick after I do a substantial water change (never more than about 20% of the water) and change the filter cartridege. Also, at first Jungle's parasite clear was very effective, but now he doesnt respond to the treatment.

I moved him from a 29 gallon to a 55 gallon tank 2 weeks ago, and now is looks the worst I have seen him. At first he was very inactive, but now he swims around alot and stays in the top 1/2 of the tank all the time. Sometimes he swims very fast and hits against the top of the water or the side of the tank. He still wont eat. His mouth looks terrible - red streaks and peeling again, but now he also keeps his mouth open alot when swimming around. I tried Jungle's Parasite clear again, but there was no response at all. I dont really know what to do, because the other medications at the local pet store are all food, and I am sure he wont eat it. Besides his mouth he still looks healthy, but he hasnt eaten much of anything in the past 2 weeks and I am really worried he is in pain. I am sure he would appreciate any help.

Thanks,

Jeff

Hi Jeff, hopefully we can help you figure out what is going on. I think there is several things in play here.

First is water quality. Have you tested the tank? We also need you to answer all the questions at the top. You have some but we need them all to help with a diagnosis.

Next is parasites. The darting and not wanting to eat are symptoms of parasites. We can get more into this once the params of the tank are posted. We have to make sure we start at the begining and that is the place to start.

My next thoughts are of the underground filter. Toxins build up and can be released if the gravel is disturbed for any reason.

Post back soon and we'll see if we can't get you and him to a better state of life.

You have one of the most expert people here helping you already...I am very new. Just wanted to ask what you were conditioning the new water with when you do water changes? Since you said he gets worse after that? I was thinking perhaps what you were using was not right for your water, or maybbe your tap water is off for the fish. But I think those are included in the red questions above that Laurie asked you to answer anyway, sorry for butting in!

Sorry I forgot to include the tank conditions

nitrite = 5.0
alkalinity = 40
PH = 6.2
nitrate = 40
hardness = 75

wow, i realize those are pretty bad. I guess I just didnt think about water conditions since this illness has been going on for so long. Maybe bad water conditions help the parasites out? However, i know he has had the illness in the past when the test results were more normal.

I used aquasafe for the water changes. I put alot of the old tank water in the new tank, but it was mostly new water. I didnt put in any of the guck that was under the old undergravel filer.

I let the tank run for a few days before putting the fish in, and he got sick a day or 2 after being put in the new tank.

I also forgot to mention that when i got the 55 gallon tank 2 weeks ago (about when he got sick again), he was put in with a comet goldfish, who has remained very healthy. The comet is about as long as the sick common goldfish (9-10 inches), but he is much smaller in terms of mass.

I feed him floating pellets, but when he is sick he will only eat pees that are right in front of him, if he will even eat.

Also, when he originally got sick about 3 years ago, it was about the same time a got an apple snail from walmart. I think thats how it started.

Sorry I didnt include this info originally, I just wanted to keep the message readably short.

Thanks so much for responding.

Several things of note here. The ph is way to low for a goldie, you need to raise it with baking soda. This needs to be raised slowly, no more then .2 a day. add 1/4 tsp per 10 gls, dissolved in tank water.

Are you using drop kits or strips? It looks to be strips possibly and they are not accurate... I'd like to see a kh & gh reading both... while baking soda will boost the kh & ph, the gh steady's on both in regards and may need a boost of calcium & magnesium. That is easily solved also. You can do this with Calcium Chloride, Kents marine Calcium is good. Mixed equally with epsome salt. 1/2 tsp each. Long term, might try oyster shell or crushed shell in filters.

Try to bring the ph up to around 7.0- no more then 7.5 and hold it steady. Remember the higher the ph, more toxic is ammonia.... so readings are vital......

Ditch the water ager, you need a good binder/dechlor such as Prime that will bind ammonia, nitrites, 'trates and heavy metals. If you use Amquel instead, it will use up kh/ph. Filters and fish both require it (kh) as well. Water should be tested weekly.

At this point, ditch the water born meds. Salt the tank to 0.1%,thats 1 tsp per gl, turn the heater up to 79* slowly, no more then 2* per hour. and maintain it. Medigold medicated food, it will sink. Increase o2. With the mouth area red and sore, he no doubt doesn't feel like eating much. If possible you should look inside the mouth to see if it also has sore/redness. There's alway's the possibility of a ulcer in the mouth. If thats the case, then Tricide neo dip will be the best bet in regards. Tricide is found at pond RX, spendy to be sure, but a little goes a long way's in regards and the rest can be stored in a baggie until or unless its needed. It has a super shelf life....

Good water is a must if it is to heal. At this point with having treated with parasite meds, they are most likely gone unless your seeing unusual amounts of scratching, rubbing, flashing and that can also be caused by the, yes, water changes. The ph is so low along with the hardness that the tank & filters is close to a ph craxh, can't support much for long. So every time your changing the water, the ph/kh/gh fluctuates..... This alone is stressful and enough to keep a secondary septic thing floating along as most parasite meds are not appropriate to deal with ulcer/septicemia or other bacterials.

To be sure parasites are truly gone, a scrape and scope would be the bottom line.

All I can say is "Love your work Kathy"

Kathy has got you on track, so I will add only a couple thoughts.

If your nitrites are that high you need to do massive water changes to get that under control.
Next it is possible that the parasites are affected by the water.
We know that a fish can have a parasite and deal well with it until something happens to compromise the fish's immune system..........water quality. Then the parasite gets the best of the fish causing problems.

Post back soon.

Thank you all so much for your help.

I will do a partial water change (how much would you recommend?), add the salt, and try to raise the ph tonight. I'll let you know how it goes.


Thanks again.

I would do at least a 50% change. Then post the results.

TY Jen and Laurie!
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Slowly does it Schimitter on raiseing the ph ok, it will take several day's to raise it. too much too fast will have fishy going bonkers.... and we don't want that!

A fish that is not feeling well has little energy to raise to the surface. What energy they have is best left for eating sinking food. I would say it would not hurt at all under the circumstance to feed a medicated food at this point. It is designed to sink and often krill based which is yummy to them.

In regards, think of yourself. When your sick you really don't wanna get up as it makes you feel worse...... so someone brings it to you saving the energy for getting well! Fish are are a lot more like humans in this regards, they just can't tell us whats wrong!

Hi again. Here are the tank results now, which I guess are a little better.

Nitrite = 4.0
Alkalinity = 30
PH = 6.4
Nitrate = 50
hardness = 70

Here is what I got from the tap water:

Nitrite = 0
Alkalinity = 40
PH = 6.2
Nitrate = 5
hardness = 75

I also added the salt and started warming up the water as suggested.

I am really worried about my fish though. For the first time ever I noticed red streaks on one of his Gills (just one side), which are similar to those on his mouth. Also, I havent been able to get him to eat anything in days (maybe even a week) because he never goes to the bottom of the tank. He always stays floating near the top, and he swims kinda fast in circles frequently. He wont go to the top for food and when i put sinking food in he wont chase it. Also, he has a small tear in his rear fin.

So, I think he probably still has the parasite. Any suggestions besides the jungle parasite clear tabs or medicated food (which he wont eat)?

I will keep raising the ph about .2 a day.

Thanks again for your help.

Also, i forgot to mention that sometimes when he floats he gets real off balance and his head dips down until he is almost perpendicular to the ground. But most of the time he just floats normally near the top.

Sorry for posting so much, but I just noticed that those red streaks arent just on his gills - they are all over his body. It is just hard to see because he is dark orange. But they are very clear on his few white spots. The red streaks really look like maybe his veins are visible through his scales?

The red streaks are not a good sign, they can easily be septicimia. Which is a blood infection. You really have to make him eat the medicated food. Force feed him if neccessary.
Next Septicimia needs injectable antibotics in order to help the fish. Are you able to locate a fish vet and take him?
If not, you could be battling something he may not recover from.

I would definietly work on the water issues. Especially the nitrites, you have to get them down to under 1 for any kind of stress reduction for the fish.

thanks again. I dont think there are any fish vets in the area. Do you have any suggestions for how to force feed him? (as I said, he is a really big goldfish - about 10 inches not including fins)

just uploaded a picture of him to my profile, and I wanted to see if it will appear here

ok, here are some pictures of him

My Webpage

Nice looking "cow" you got there.

How to force feed may be a challenge, any chance on someone helping you?

There are a couple ways, holding the fish and continue putting the food directly in their mouth. Or by liquifying it and using a syringe (no needle) to force them, are both ways.
Him being so big it should be easy if you have a helper.

Surprisingly, he actually seems better today. He ate a bunch of pees and most of the red lines on his gills and body are gone. I havent got the medicated food in yet, but it should be here any day. Hopefully that will help him recover. The water quality is getting better, I have the nitrites down to below 1 like you said, and the PH is up to about 6.6. I'll keep trying to raise it slowly. He is even starting to act a bit more normal, because when he swims it isnt so spastic.

Thanks for all of your help, and I will let you know if he gets worse again.

Good news, keep at the water. It is the most valuable tool you have to help that fish.
And when you get the medicated food keep him on it a full 2 wks.

Ok, so i thought he was getting better, but now i am very worried. As I said earlier, those red streaks are leaving his body and he started to eat peas again. But this evening he developed some huge brown patches on his gills on the right side. Similar patches are starting to form on the other side. Also, some scales are staring to peel off on his back. What do you think is causing this, and what can I do?

I will post a picture of what I am talking about

Current tank readings:
nitrite = .8
alkalinity = 50
ph = 6.7
nitrate = 50
hardness = 75

Schmitter1--

Just wanted to let you know I PMed a couple much more expert people than myself who can hopefully help you out soon with this.

Hope your fish pulls thru this--he is gorgeous.

Hey thanks for the heads up fantail

Schmitter you need to post the ammonia levels too. If you don't have a test for that you need to get one asap.
Those brown patches "could" be ammonia burns starting to heal. If it is those then working on the water is the best thing.
Next do you know why the scales are falling off? Is the fish rubbing on anything?
Scales will come back. Where they are gone is it normal looking or red or raw looking?

I think you may need to go ahead and get the medicated food if you have not.

Also getting that water under control is the first thing to work on.
Those nitrites are still way out of control.

where the scales are gone it looks normal I guess. But he lost a large patch of them just today.

Ok, I guess these test strips dont include amonia, ill have to get new ones

How low should the nitrites be? I have done several partial water changes.

Well in a cycled tank the ammonia and nitrites both should be 0 with the nitrates being between 10-20.

With your nitrates being high already........the nitrites should be 0. How long has the nitrates been registering a number?

Can you update us on the tank size again?

If it has been a bit that the nitrates have been there, then something is wrong.
Ways that the cycle aren't completing could be overfeeding
Overstocking.
Not enough water changes.

My recommendation is to do water changes every couple hours and test after each one (wait an hour) until the nitrites get under .5
Now with your ph problem I am not sure how to handle that. Just be careful with it.

Schmitter, get drop kits and ditch the strips, they are inacurate.

Is there anything in the tank like tank decorations etc that he can be scraping himself against? Air line tubing, bubbler clips etc? Or have you seen any excess scratching or rubbing against the gravel etc lately?

I'll rehash the bringing up the ph level again, and you need to adjust the water everytime you change it.

1/2 tsp per 20 gls or 1/4 per 10 of baking soda per day until the ph hits 7.0-7.5

That will raise the ph .2* day. Mix it well with tank water and add it slowly around the filters outflow so it distributes around the tank. Wait a half hour or so and test the ph & kh. Don't raise it any more then that per day.

I would also add some oyster shell or crushed shell to the filter in regards.

The gill plates are either ammonia healing or he's scraped the pigment off.

I'm also going to have Captk take a look. See if he can see anything we might be overlooking here.......

Hi Jeff,

I'm sorry that your goldie is suffering.

I have read through the thread twice and it is by no means a open and shut case. The chronic nature appears to be the key with the condition being triggered by stress. I have no doubt that the present condition is made worse by the cycling new tank. I'm glad that you are working on getting the water back into shape.

I thought about the parasite angle but the fact that it went on and off for 3 years seems to make it less likely. There would have to be many many generations of parasites involved and I would have expected the condition to get out of control a long time ago.

That leaves the bacterial/viral side. The one that kind of matches some of the symptoms is Mycobacteriosis. It is caused by members of the Mycobacterium family. It can take years to develop and stress does make the condition worse. However, the possible symptoms of this disease are many and various so it is a difficult one to nail down 100%.

Any thoughts?

I am definately not the Expert when it comes to sickness/Parasites for sure.I do know that there are some parasites that can live on your fish for a long time,without you seeing symptoms of it,until a sickness/or problem appears,and make them more vulnerable to attack..When I read this thread,all I kept thinking was very poor water quality off and on for this fish. He's been sick for the last 3 years,off and on-well that means that he's over three years old & ten inches or so big,and it's hard to think that he could be parasite infected for that long & do that well. All the symptoms that I've heard make me think of PH drops/Ammonia/Nitrite readings,etc. The red streaks could be stress/water quality. His eyes in the pics looked really cloudy to me.Another sign of poor water.When you started the water changes ,you thought he as doing worse-I'm wondering if it was because of higher ph/metals,colder water added,etc? Now that you're continuing with raising his ph,and doing water changes,you're seeing an improvement,right?I think you mentioned somewhere that the fish was almost "Head standing" Now again,that could be Parasites,but that could also be Organ Damage too,from poor water,etc...,right?Anyway,just some thoughts of mine..I'm thinking that if you continue with the water changes,and learning to stabalize your ph,that you may see some improvements on this guy.

Sorry for the slow reactions on all of this, but I really sick myself (bronchitus). The tank is a 55 gallon (he was in a 29 by himself before he got sick). The nitrates have been reading at about 40 since I started testing, which was about a week ago I think. Ill do more water changes today and get a drop kit to get some better readings for you. I guess I probably was overfeeding originally when I was trying to get him and his tankmate to eat. Now I dont put much food in and I take out whatever they dont eat.

to answer another question, since I have been working on the water, yes he has seemed better. He isnt frantically swimming around and hittting against the tank much like he he was earlier. His mouth also looks a little better. But for some reason a bunch of his scales fell off yesterday and he got those brown patches on his gills and body.

I havent noticed him scratching against anything in particular, but he could be rubbing up against the top piece of the undergravel filter, which does have straight edges. Maybe I should take that out? It seems like most people dont use those anyways.

I will post again once I get some more accurate readings. Thank you all so much. I would hate to lose him, since I have raised him from being a tiny 10 cent feeder over the last 5 years.

Just wanted you to know I'm following the post and pulling for your big ole fish!! Hope you get things figured out soon!

Hi Jeff,
Personally I don't go for UGF's, good bio filtration is a lot better in regards. For a tank that size with goldfish, 550 gph will be a much better unit and turnover rate. The gravel still needs cleaned weekly with the WC and straight up and down movements as stirring can release toxic gasses. Its totally possible for them to knock scales off with those UGF riser tubes and scrape pigment off as well. I run double Penguins or Emporer's on my tanks and the bigger units you can add Oyster shell, bio glass easily. The smaller units I made mesh net bags like a cartridge and put oyster shell in. A piece of mesh screen works well for that!

Another simple way to perk up the gh end of things is Kents liquid Calcium and a equal amount of Epsome salt (magnesium). 1/2 tsp each should bring that number up. Again here, I think either the use of oyster shell or crushed shell long term would be a better thing.

Goldfish do need to be up in ph with a good steady ph- gh/kh to boot. The calcium and magnesium is not only used by the fish, but the bio bugs in filter as well.

Your fish seems like a tough guy! Goldfish are omniverous also, so it doesn't hurt to add a variety of vegitables and fruits. Orange is a good one. Frozen or fresh and hard type vegies like green beans and brocoli needs to be softened and cut down of course. Zuchinni and yellow squash I clip. Remove the skin from peas,grapes and Orange's. Kiwi fruit is another they like.

Do you have a heater in tank?

Can you also confirm if the eye is cloudy looking? It does appear to be in the photo somewhat.


************************************************

Devs,
The consistent use of medications will cause "cloudy eye" also. Sometimes it can be easily taken care of ( water born Meds), sometimes not and requires a heavy duty such as injection of Baytril and as we all know, thats a bit hard to come by sadly. But it is bacterial.

Hi Kathy! I did know that ,but I didn't mention it figuring that he said he only dosed once or twice with Parasite Clear.I guess that's why I went the poor water route.

I havent noticed his eyes looking any different really. It may just be the poor picture quality. I was having a real hard time getting him to face me correctly and hold still, and he really doesnt like the flash. Either way, with all the water changes I am doing, if his eyes are cloudy they will hopefully get better.

About the filter, I also have the out of tank filter that came with the tank, not just an undergravel (im not sure on the brand - whatever comes in the walmart 55 gallon kit)

I went to the local pet store and got the only thing they had besides test strips, which is some kind of test kit with chemicals and vials and stuff. According to that, the PH is 7.0, thr Nitrite is .3, and the ammonia is .4. I still have the salt at about .2 or .3 (hard to keep exact track with all the water changes, but i am trying). I have a heater in the tank, and I have been keeping it at 78 for the last few days.

I'll have to get some calcium and crushed shell. Thanks.

Thanks for the help, the brown marks havent spread any since I noticed them last night, and no more scales have fallen off yet, so I am still pretty hopeful he is still recovering.

Well Done! Hold it at 7.0 Ph until the nitrite and Ammonia readings are both 0. Keep useing Ammonia binder and the salt will also help protect from nitrite poisoning! But you should be alright after that in the 7.5 range

I'm betting the brown spots are ammonia burns at this point. They should heal up with tlc and keeping the water pristine. I'm betting the tank was bouncing in regards to cycle as well, so once the bio bugs take hold and you keep the tank up in the ph & kh dept, it should be alright. Stability is the key to a happy healthy fish!

Sorry I didn't get back sooner but I lost power here..... Mega problem that and frequent!

4 tanks to pitcher water in for o2 for 11 hours was _not_ my idea of fun either,lol! Heavy rains and winds have reeked havoc with our water source and I've just boosted my gh & kh to compensate with the baking soda, epsome salt & Calcium cocktail. It happens, too many leaves (tannins) in the water source softening it!

So if you think the fisheye is normal then I wouldn't worry.... Do keep us posted on how things are going!

********
Devs,
Yup, its alway's a possibility there too. But over medicating is generally a prime cause & suspect, and in Schmitters case, he has used parasite meds on a fairly consistent basis. Which can wipe out the bio bugs in tank also.... consequently if the fish had white eye, it would almost be a combination of both in regards.

The brown marks went away from his gills and body, and no more scales fell off. His mouth also looks better, though it is still a bit red.

While he looks better, he is still acting the same. He isnt very active and he wont eat more than a couple pieces of food a day. He suspends himself in the middle of the tank most of the time, and swims around normally a bit.

Every so often (once every hour or 2?) he will splash at the top and then swim around with his mouth wide open. He opens his mouth wide and closes it alot - like small yawns or something. I think his mouth is still in alot of pain. I havent noticed any red patches like an ulcer or anything like that. Do you think he still has the parasite? Should I put in more parasite meds?

Thanks