This is directed towards Laurie and Cathy (CU) b/c they have been following my case for a while...but everyone is welcome for input, please!

Ok - params are fine - as always. I have never had a prob w/water quality:

ammo - 0
nitrItes - 0
nitrAtes - 10
ph - 8.0 ; tap ph 8.0
gh - 150 (using test strip)
kh - 120 (using test strip)
10 gallon; running almost 4 months
aquaclear 30 (150gph)
using Prime conditioner
change water once/week; 40%
water temp is around 70 F
2 orandas; 1 inch bodies
diet of peas; bloodworms; gel food; omega one pellets; brine shrimp
Johnny's tail has been ragged for about 2 months - no noticable improvement
Have noticed some frequent yawning; at least twice this week I have seen him scratch himself on the gravel; also witnessed what appeared to be shaking / twitching (very minimal).

~note~ Tank is located in son's bedroom. Unfortunately, I have not spent a lot of time in there to witness anything else unusual. (I know - flaw in setup).

Johnny has had tail erosion for about 2 months now. It hasn't really gotten any worse, but it has not gotten any better. About 2 months ago I salted up to .3% for 2 weeks. I then treated with Maracyn since I had witnessed white stringy poop (I do not know who the poop came from). I have not seen any stringy poop since then. I had also performed a very weak swab with betadine on one side of the fin.

LaurieP and coyote ugly (cu) have helped me...their initial thought is there is prob nothing to worry about. I agree - the tail wasn't displaying any redness or whiteness, just eroding here and there.

But now, I have noticed on two separate occasions during the past week Johnny performing some fast maneuvers around the tank. As if he was frightened by something. He then dives to the bottom and rubs himself against the gravel. Yesterday after the water change I saw Johnny kinda twitching; shaking his pectoral fins. This I saw only once.

I have also noticed he is yawning a bit more than I would expect. For example, I was standing in the room for not a minute and I saw him yawning twice. (this is not the only time - just an example.)

?? Do fish occassionally scratch themselves?? As if they just had an itch like you and me?

I have been following fantailfan1's post regarding the possible parasite situation, and I am thinking that maybe my Johnny is going thru the same thing??

Unfortunately I do not have access to a microscope. My fish are still kinda small so I am not certain how he would handle a salt dip. I guess I would just like everyone's thoughts on this now that I am seeing these things....

Thanks again.

chico--

Sounds an awful lot like what my fish were doing when we started treating for parasites. With your fish being so small I don't think they would recommend salt dips (I think toothless likes them to be 4 inches or longer not including tail).

Anyway I will let someone with more experience help you. I just wish you luck in your treatment if that's what you and the experts decide to do!

fantailfan1 -

Thanks for the well-wishes! I was up late last night reading your post...and I just thought the symptoms were so similar...

I did not want to hijack your thread; as I had hijacked coyote ugly's finrot thread (and I didn't think that was very nice of me!)

I hope your treatment is going well, too. I'll continue to watch your threads....keep me / us posted. It is very educational!

Hi Laura,
I am so sorry to hear your fish are not well All the symptoms you have mentioned leads to a diagnosis of parasites.Fin shaking,yawning and scratching definitely indicates that something is irritating them...Have you added anything new in your tank recently?Since your fish are still small,a salt dip is not an option.What you can do is raise the salinity to 0.3%.This will knock off most parasites.If you have a heater,you can gradually(1~2* per hour)raise the temp to 78~80*F to boost the fish's immune system.Good luck!My thoughts are with you

I keep it updated so that the mods know all I've done so when they get a chance to peak at the thread they've got all the info. And it's kinda like a diary so I don't forget what I did and when I did it. It's been only a week but it seems like a month!! I guess because every second I'm looking over to see how/what they're doing. Maybe having your tank in your son's room isn't such a bad idea!!

Well like I said good luck and I will keep my eye on this post as well!

Hi Cathy,

No heater. Think it's a wise investment for a mere 10 gallon?

I'll start salting tonight.

I haven't added anything to the tank - no plants - nothing. He plays around just fine...it's just those few episodes I noticed something not right and thought maybe it had something to do w/the tail erosion.....you know how us overprotective moms can get! But then I also thought maybe just a coincidence....don't want to pounce on every little thing!

I think heaters are definitely a good investment...they are a must when fish get sick.Even if you decide to upgrade your tank in the future,you could always use it as a hospital/QT tank and so having a heater in there is a good thing

Most people rule out parasites if nothing new is added in the tank....but the symptoms are all pointing in that direction.I may ask a friend to have a look in this thread.Salt is safe and less stressful so there is no harm raising the salinity.

p.s.
I know exactly how you feel!I am overprotective myself

Hi Laura,

Cathy asked me to drop by and have a look at your thread.

Okay, the initial assessment does hint at parasites but then again some symptoms are common and I always like to see the smoking gun when we suspect parasites.

Other than the symptoms you described, have you noticed any excess slime? It can be over the whole fish or in isolated patch.

Any tiny blood spots under the chin or near/under any fins?

The blood worms you feed them with, are they live or frozen?

I'll hold off raising the temp for the time being. By all means, buy a heater because Cathy is right in that it is a good long term investment but when parasite is suspected, higher temperature is a double edged sword. Some parasite will mushroom when temp is raised. That is good if the correct treatment regime is in place to catch the buggers and shorten the treatment cycle. However, if the safeguards are not in place and the parasite population explodes, then the fish can be overwhelmed very quickly and be pushed over the edge.

The yawn is their way of trying to clear their gills. It could be parasites or it could be bacterial gill disease (or damaged gills via other causes). Can you run a check of her gills for me. Do they look fresh meat red or pale pink/grey/brown? Are they in a nice fan shape, not slimey/tattered? Take your time, a torch will help too.

With the persistent tail problem, there might be a high bacterial load in the water. How often and how much do you change your water?

Sorry for all the questions.

Thanks Captk!I appreciate it

Any time, Cathy! How are the new fishies going?

Honestly,the redcap is not doing too good.sluggish with frayed fins.Started to feed medicated food hoping I could nurse him back to health

Most unwelcomed development. Let us know if we can do anything to help.

will sure do...thanks

Hi captk! Thanks for stopping by and investigating my case!



One thing I'd like to note is that we recently found out that Johnny is actually a boy. He and his tank-mate Robby both started displaying their breeding stars. Just a fyi.

As I was re-examining Johnny for this reply, I did notice him vigorously shaking his pectoral fins again. It was after I had picked him up, so I am not sure if it was a coincidence.

Thanks again, everyone.

edit: I did start the salt process. Right now I'm at .1%.

Hi Laura,

Excess slime coat will give the area affected a milky white color.

With the yawning, do you notice that after feeding time? Is that the time you stand around and observe them? I'm wondering if a bit of food might be trapped in the gills and they are trying to clear it. If they are 1inch in size, they are quite small and some of the pellets and dried food might be a little harder to "chew". Do you pre-soak that type of food?

Has there been any chemicals used around the tank? Cleaners, insect spray, etc?

I think at this stage, salt is okay for a couple of weeks but I'm not totally convinced that we are dealing with parasites.

Hi Henry,



In your valued opinion, is there anything else in particular I should be looking for?

Hi Laura,

It has been known for parasites to hitch a ride in the water that live bloodworms are kept in. That is why we need to ask. But that is the problem too. It is like a locked door murder mystery. You might have not added anything deliberately but has any cross contamination happened by accident? Most people are not aware of this or won't give it a second thought. I always maintain that parasites have to arrive at a tank from somewhere. However innocent or trivial the carrier might have been but there has to be a smoking gun.

Anyway, it looks like the mystery is not going to be that easily solved in this case. You could try Jungle's Parasite Clear. It has a nice mix of meds to cover most bases. Salt to 0.1% for now. Up aeration if possible.

Ok - I've salted at .1% and leave at that level for the time being. I was in the room today for a good half hour and did not observe any yawning or scratching. I should probably hook up a video camera in there, eh??

I'll pick up the PC tomorrow. Today is Halloween and I just can't get myself out of the house!

I do see something irregular w/his tail fin. I have noticed on his tail fin what would look like a crease towards the end. I know a pic would say a thousand words...I am working on that at the moment. However, for the time being, let me try to explain as best I can here.

Right now in a healthy fin there are what I would assume is called the membranes extending from the base of the tail to the end. If you're looking at the fish floating in the tank, you would see the membranes as being in a kind of horizontal position. I see that - normal. What I am also seeing is something that looks like a crease in the tail, a thicker white line (not very defined as the membrane), running vertically (going up and down). This is actually towards the end of the tail, so the length of it is not as long as the horizonal membranes. To me it looks like a crease in your jeans from ironing.

Some days the crease is more defined than others. I have no idea what this is; if it is normal or abnormal; or if it is related to this entire fuzzy issue to begin with.

I will try to get a pic later on during feeding - that's when he moves the least. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

edit: Re aeration, I have a 3" bubble wand running there at the time. I have it hooked up to a Rena 200 pump which pumps out an extraordinary amount of air for the size of the tank. Therefore, I don't have it on full blast, but I have a good supply of bubbles in there along w/the filteration.

Hi Laura,

I think I have a good idea of the cease but a pic would be nice. From your description, it doesn't sound dangerous. It shouldn't be there but it sounds to me like some kind of scar tissue. If nothing is growing on top of or within the cease then I won't worry too much about it.

Hi Henry,

Well, I took about 50 pics, and I just can't get a clear shot of it. But, from your terminology....I bet it is scar tissue. I don't see anything growing on top or within it. That's good.

And during this photo shoot, I was with them about 45 minutes - even fed them. I saw no yawning, no twitching, no scratching. I would guess that if it was indeed a pretty good parasite then I would have witnessed something during that time frame? I have no idea how often a fish w/a parasite exhibits abnormal behavior......

Hi Laura,

That is the problem. Some symptoms are common across a number of problems. A bit like a runny nose for us. It could be nothing to worry about to something that can kill you in hours.

With most observable symptoms associated with parasites, the common thread that run through them is one of irritation. The fish will do a number of things when something irritate it. It might flash/scratch against something to try to dislodge whatever is irritating it, it might produce excess slime to try to cover the irritation, it might behave irrationally or yawn. That irritation can come from parasites but it can also be environmental.

At this point in time, I would suggest that you keep the salt at 0.1% but hold off the meds until you get a symptoms coming back consistently. We are talking about one flash every few minutes, a few yawns within an hour. Eating bubbles at the surface, torpedoing, etc.

Hi Laura,

How are your fish?

Hi Cathy!

Sorry....my computer was "sick" again. Getting ready to throw it into the lake. (ok I'll stop ranting now)

So far I've seen nothing unusual - which is good! The fin is still ragged. I am still salting at .1%. I'll keep the tank at that level for a couple more weeks. I'm debating whether or not to give Johnny a swab treatment....I continually say I'll wait to see what happens. So, I'll wait to see what happens after the salt treatment.

Thanks for asking! And thanks for getting captk involved, too. You guys were very helpful in calming me down.

How is your redcap doing?

Laura my goodness I just seen your thread!! I am so sorry hon that I didn't see it earlier.

Looks like you got great help though, Henry is top notch!! So I will let him continue.

I am sorry your fishy is still having problems but hang in there he'll get to be perfect by the time all is said and done.
Oh, next time if you see "one of us" hasn't responded and you are having a problem always PM us. That is why it is there. I hate the thought of leaving anyone hanging. Good luck!!!

I'm sorry to hear your computer has a tantrum I know how frustrating that is!

But I'm glad to know everything is well with your fish About the fins,have they change at all recently?Deteriorating?Any chance of a recent pic?I sure hope we can figure out why his fins are ragged....

Sad to say my redcap oranda passed away last night

Oh no, I'm so sorry, Cathy. I just have a blue-sky idea. Could it be fish TB that is plaguing your tank? The symptoms are so board that it could have matched anything your fish have had and I don't usually go for this diag but with so many of your fish being in trouble and with the cure rate so low, I really have to play the devil's advocate here.

Unfortunately, to be sure, we need to do a bacteria culture and test for members of the Mycobacterium genus or we need to do a postmort and look for telltale tubercles in his internal organs.

Thanks Captk....

he was definitely showing signs of bacterial infection He was mostly sitting at the bottom or at the surface.After further inspection of his body,I found little red spots...I was feeding him med food but wasn't responding so I decided to medicate.An hour after I put meds in,he died....

Cathy - oh my goodness.....I am so so sorry. I just got the chills....hugs, sweetie.

Laurie - no worries, honey! I knew you were busy! I see a ton of newbies on the board...they are all eager to learn and need more advice than I do! And yes, I will remember to PM you if I don't see your reply. Thanks for looking out for me!

In summary on my situation, no improvement on the fin. Still ragged...not sure if it's getting worse. I'll have to really compare the earlier pics to what he looks like now. Still salting at .1%; been 1 week at that level.

I will try to post a few pics tomorrow. My puter is still recovering.....

For those of you who have had the glorious opportunity to take your fish out of the tank to treat for whatever reason, I pose this question to you: how does your fish act after you put him back into the tank?

I just performed a 40% water change on my tank. I then took Johnny out to treat his tail fin for erosion with a hydrogen peroxide swab along with a dab of triple antibiotic cream (neosporin). After putting him back in the tank, he is so so so lethargic. Hanging out at the bottom, only really moving around when Robby (tank mate) goes near him. It's only been about 10 minutes since the treatment; I would assume that would be the case, being stressed out from not being in the water. But I was wondering what you all have experienced, and how quickly does your fishy bounce back?

I'm a bit concerned.........

WEll I have a couple questions first.

How long is he out of the water?
Is he in other water during this time?
Could you be holding him to tight?

My fish anytime I have to move them from tank to tank or to just hold them to treat for any reason ( I have a guy who loves to get gravel stuck in his mouth and have to grab him every couple weeks)
Anyway they are fine when I put them back in the water, like it is no big deal.

My fish do very well too after a swab.....the smaller ones get a bit freaked out at first but will mostly recover after a minute or two.How is he now?I hope he perks up soon.....both you and your fish are in a lot of strain these days I hope all goes well

Laurie: To answer the questions....
He was out of the water for about 30 secs, TOPS.
He was wrapped up in a very wet towel; I soaked the towel in the tank water, and barely wrang it out, so it was very very wet.
I don't believe I was holding him too tight....in fact he was pretty much lying there so I didn't have to hold him tight at all.

I hate to continue my fin rot problems in this post, since we already have another post going.....so, what I will do is continue this on my original post. Please look for the update shortly.

Thanks.

Sorry to say, no pics yet.

Ok - on to the current situation.

Params in check:
ammo - 0
nitrItes - 0
nitrAtes - ~7
ph - 8.0
temp - 73F
10 gallon; 2 fish; lots of plants
aquaclear 30 (150gph); 3" bubble wand
fed everything

This morning I performed a 40% water change, along w/the gravel vacuum. I then decided it was time to treat Johnny's fin.

Got a small towel, soaked it in the tank water, barely wrang it out. Caught Johnny with my hands. Took him out, wrapped him in the towel; at this point he wasn't wriggling any more. Performed a swab with hydrogen peroxide, then applied triple antibiotic cream (generic neosporin). Put him back in the tank. Time elapsed maybe 30 seconds TOPS.

He did NOT seem to like that at all. He just started hanging out at the bottom of the tank. I figured he was prob stressed out, so I let him be. About 10 minutes later, he was still at the bottom inbetween the plants. I put in some soaked pellets to see if he would eat; yes he did. Then he went down to his little spot. It was now 1pm my time; I had to leave.

Arrived back home at 5.30pm to find Johnny still lying on the bottom between the plants with poop hanging out. I was able to arouse him; he swam around a bit with no interest, yawned 3 times in a span of 5 minutes, then went back down to sleep (so I assume). I also noticed that his fins started to display the veins (red) more prominently than this morning.

I left (to make dinner). Came back at 7pm. Johnny was still at the bottom. I fed them some gel food. Johnny perked right up, ate very well. The poop finally came out. He finally started acting normal. We were in the room for at least 30 minutes and Johnny was being himself, to a point. I noticed that every time Robby got close, Johnny kinda swam away....however, I witnessed no yawning, flashing, or scratching.

As of 5 minutes ago, Johnny is at the top of the tank swimming around. I would like to believe he is recovering....although I am now concerned that I over-did it. His fins look a little worse: (1) visible veins producing red tinge (2) seems to be a bit more frayed than before.

Please share your thoughts.

As an fyi, tomorrow (Monday) I will not have my computer during the day as it will be taken in to get fixed. Hopefully nothing will go wrong b/n late tonight and tomorrow.

That sounds good to continue the sickness portion on the other thread. I can merge them both. That way no one gets confused.

As for being out 30 secs, well I don't know. I mean I have only had mine out less than 10-15 secs when I do that. I have no idea what is appropriate for fish to be out of water.

I know he was not out more than 30 secs. If I sit here and count, and replay the actions in my head, it was prob closer to 20 secs he was out.

Right now, he is swimming along fine.

The red streaks; i.e. the veins showing up. Do you all think that is a good thing or a bad thing? Could it be strong blood flow to the area trying to heal it? Or did I do irrepairable damage.....


p.s. Laurie - thanks for merging.

Ok - call me obsessive, but I wanted to provide you with the link where I garnished the info for treating the fin rot....

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/4468/finrot.html

Also, I'd like to post some pics for your reference. Unfortunately, I do not know how to add an image where it is originally small, and you click on it to enlarge (if I'm missing something, pls advise). I can only provide what I have added to photobucket.

Here is Johnny about a month ago:


Tonight, November 6.
Right side:


Right side #2:


Left side:


Left side #2 (he is not missing a chunk of his tail as it looks in the pic):


Fringey look:


Prominent Veins:



I apologize if these are too big; I will try to resize....

Any thoughts on the appearance?

Looks like finrot Finrot is a type of bacterial infection so it may be good to feed him medicated food.Have you got med food?
Red veins on fins usually indicates stress...he has been through a lot lately so he may be under a lot of stress.Give him time to rest and monitor his behavior for a couple of days...as you are salting to 0.1%,that would ease a bit of his stress
Swabbing usually gets rid of the bacteria that is eating his fins so you may see improvement within a week or so.I'm so sorry Laura,wish I could help you more...will be crossing my fingers for a quick recovery

No med food on hand....which do you prefer?

I hear of metromed or medigold? I'll take a look around....

Oh - can I feed it to Robby, too? Or do I have to just try to feed it to Johnny only?

Thanks, Cathy!!

No med food on hand....which do you prefer?

I hear of metromed or medigold? I'll take a look around....

Oh - can I feed it to Robby, too? Or do I have to just try to feed it to Johnny only?

Sorry for the double posts, everyone.

Ok - I just want to clarify: the finrot got noticably worse after I treated w/the swabs. Those pictures above were taken 8 hours after the treatment. Before the treatment, he prob looked more like the first pic.

Is it possible I totally messed this up????

Monday Morning, Nov 7

Tank currently salted at .1%.

Ordered MediGold.

Recap: Yesterday I treated tail fin erosion with a hydrogen peroxide swab, followed with application of triple antibiotic cream.

Fins started showing severe deterioration hours after treatment.

This morning, almost 24 hours after treatment, fins look even worse, displaying even more blood. No other strange behavior, but seems to be swimming around like a crazy-guy; as if he is trying to get away from his tank-mate.

This is the best picture I could get, again swimming crazy. Please notice the dark red streaks on the left side of his tail fin.




I really need some advice, pls!

1. Did I totally screw this up, or is this a normal occurrence after such treatment?
2. Should I QT him and let him be for the 10 day MediGold treatment (once I get it)?

I feel absolutely horrible.....I tried to rectify a situation, and I fear I have made it much worse.......

Sorry to hear his tail is getting worse.
I am not a big fan of using peroxide on much. While a good disinfectant it can cause erosion to tissue all to easily.
Whether or not this is the case, I don't know. Others have used it with success.

The red in the tail looks bad though, I would start the medicated food asap. If you ordered from Goldfish connection Ric will hurry it for severly sick fish, this I would do.

It may be that septicimia is setting in, which is very bad. Often fatal, this illness needs heavy antibotics from vets or injection. If this is not possible the only thing to do is keep the fish on the medicated food for 21 days, warm the temp to 78-80 degrees (slowly 2 degrees each hour) it'll help boost the immune systems.
Keep the water perfect and treat with the salt.

How is the other treatment going............the parasites?

I believe the recent increase in visible red veins is caused from the hydrogen peroxide. His tail was not at all this red BEFORE I performed this treatment. So, I probably did the damage.

I thought about the septicemia; but would that onset be all of a sudden coincidental?? Can my disturbing the fins actually cause septicemia?



The only thing I'm doing in the tank now is the salting at .1%. I'm waiting for the MediGold at the moment.

I have spent a considerable amount of time w/the fishies today, and didn't notice any real unusual behavior. I did see a few yawns here and there from him, but nothing that I would be fretting about right now.

No I don't think what you did caused anything. I believe it is all coincidence.
Septicimia can set in so quickly. I lost a female oranda to it from being egg impacted. It was horrible.

When do you expect the medigold?
Do you have a vet you are close with for any of your animals?

Hopefully Medigold should arrive on Wednesday.

I have a vet for my bird...I will have to call to see if they treat fish!

Since I am now salting at .1% and tank temp is around 70-72F, should I:

1. Raise the temp to 78-80F?
2. Treat with Maracyn or Maracyn II while salted? I have Maracyn on hand.

I have been doing some brief reading on septicemia since you (LaurieP) brought it up...and I am not sure if Johnny has that or not....is it a whole body infection or can it effect one area (in this case his tail fin)?

Advice is greatly appreciated.

Septicimia is a blood infection, symptoms are usually red streaks that can turn up anywhere.

As for the bird vet, if they don't do fish and you have a good relationship with them they might sell you the medication and you can learn to do the injections yourself. We can help you if it is a go.

If the only treatment you were on is salt then you can raise the temp and start Maracyn. Either 1 or 2, gosh I can't remember which is better. I think 2, but can't be 100%.

From what I have read on this site, the preferred med mentioned is II. Since I gotta go get a heater, I'll pick up the II as well.

Hi there.

Well, I have a point of interest that I think might have been overlooked:


In my opinion, this is a classic case of some type of parasite. Most likely trichodina, chilodonella or tetrahymena. My reasoning is that these are all parasites that aren't really parasites. Instead, they are free-living organisms that can become parasitic. All three subsist on poo, uneaten food, plant matter and shed fish scales and slime. In short, anything organic will become part of their diets, including live fish.

Another thing about the parasites above is that they ALL easily hitch a ride on live plants. This is a given. So, Since you listed that you have many plants in the tank, they are the source of the infection, again, in my opinion.

I do not like to treat without a positive ID but in the case of symptoms of parasites without a scope to ID the culprit, we have to go with a blanket treatment. PC and a 0.3% salt solution for 8-10 days, 48 hours between additions. Each addition shouold be added after at least a 25% waterchange, more if possible. If this does not kill okk what it is, then I would go right to quick Cure for a full treatment. If you see flashing or scratching continueing, go another round. But, QC should only be done on fish that are not, seemingly, near death.


I have read excellent points and advice throughout your thread here. I just wanted to say that if these were my fish, I would go ahead with the PC and salt for 5 days and if they don't seem to be gettting any better, by then, Go with the quick cure. All the while, keep the tank VERY clean. Including removal of the plants for disinfecting with potassium permanganate before trying to add them back. Test daily for spikes in the params and perform waterchanges with Prime according to the results.....


I'll check back in tomorrow...


Paul

Actually I prefer to use betadine or Iodine in regards to fin rot. Salt & maracyn 2 will also get a grip on it though. I would re-treat, no neo sporin on the tail though. Even a swab of straight MG will do it, or a f/mg product such as rid ick, and that can swabbed more frequently if needed.

I would be more apt to think the parasites are the root cause, its not uncommon to have a secondary problem in regards. Where ever a parasite has been attached, the area is subject to infection.

Don't worry about stress in relation to handling. I handle my Oranda's all the time and the more you do handle them, the more they seem to like it. My crazy greedy will actually come up into my hand to get his belly and back petted, and nibble my fingers. Don't just do it for the bad things (treatments), do it for the good as well. A little bribery, aka a favorite treat doesn't hurt after either. (Orange slice is good yes)

Hi Laura,

I have been very busy in the last few days and I just only found out that my PM inbox was full so I didn't receive any new PM's.

I'm reading through the thread again and see if I can get a better insight.

BTW, 30 secs is fine for a goldie to be out of the water. We have seen koi who survived minutes out of the water. Don't worry.