Hi Laura,

Let me address some of the issues as I find them.

As I mentioned before, don't worry about the fish being out of the water for too long. Goldies can handle it. Sure, it will be stressed and you will know about it but there should not be any permanent damage.

I don't think it is septicemia. Unless there is a deep wound that has been badly infected, the chance of getting septicemia is not that high. You certainly would notice the spider web of red veins on his body or localised hemorrhaging and it would have taken a little while for the infection to progress to that stage.

In regards to the redness in the tail, do they look bright blood red, dull red or maybe a brownish colour? When we see red streaks in the tail, that is the blood vessels being dilated as the fish response to a changing situation e.g. stress. However, sometimes, we can also get localised bleeding into the fins when a blood vessel is damaged due to physical trauma. That will allow blood to flow in but not out of a certain area. The pooled blood will eventually oxidise (aka rust ). So sometimes you will see that type of staining. One or two blood vessels might have been damaged during the treatment or when it struggled. That type of staining will take some time to disappear. Keep an eye on it. If it is not bright blood red then it might be what I was describing.

Now, here comes the tough question. Are we dealing with parasites or not? I would agree with Paul that there is a chance that it could be a case of protozoan infestation but we can't confirm that without a scarp and scope. There are some minor symptoms but no symptoms of heavy infestations (not that we want to see it but it is a clue, nevertheless). In fact, Laura have been so focused on the preoxide swab that I haven't heard whether there has been any more yawning/flashing, etc. Any update on that front, Laura?

As for treatment. Maybe Perform-C is appropriate or at least 0.3% salt but I'm a bit iffy about QuickCure. It is strong stuff and it is only a 1 inch fish so there is a risk if we are not sure we are actually treating.

Any thoughts?

I have to say that as of this morning Johnny's tail looks much better in relation to the red veins. Yesterday it looked pretty angry. The dull red/brown color is localized at the END of the fin in about 2 spots. There is still some noticable veining (as opposed to before this treatment), but I would venture to say the appearance has minimized itself.

As for parasitic behavior, I am at a loss. I cannot watch these fish all the time. I try to, tho. Like I mentioned earlier, yesterday I saw 3 yawns in a span of 45 minutes. Today, in 30 minutes I witnessed no yawning. Seems to come and go. Maybe I just end up catching him yawning when he's tired. I always pop in on them throughout the day, but it's for very short time periods.

I am still salted at .1%. I don't know what to do....part of me says let's get this tail under control, then worry about the possibility of parasites. To get the tail under the control I would:

1. keep salted at low .1%
2. perform another swab, this time just with betadine
3. feed medigold?? (I have already ordered it and should be here Wed)

But, if there are parasites, then getting the tail under control will prove to be difficult at best if parasites are present. We already know that the tail has been eroding for over 2 months.....slowly, but it has been happening. After salting and treatment with maracyn we saw no improvement.

I now hand it off to the fish mongers...

That is good news that Henry doesn't suspect Septicimia.
At any sign of that I tend to panic (when you lose one to it you become over sensitve. )
Help seems to have come calling so I will sit back and watch them work as well.
I hope they continue to improve.

Hi.


I think it would be good if we were to have a daily update on any of the flashing or scratching that you have seen in the recent past. Yawning, in and of itself, cannot be attributed to parasites. But yawning AND scratching certainly can, and should, be considered a parasitic symptom. ESPECIALLY when the water quality is rock steady. However, make well and sure that the flashing is NOT being caused by poo coming out of their vents and tickling their anal fins. This causes "normal" flashing.


So far, you have listed these as symptoms:


Yawning, rapid fin shaking, scratching, fin/tail-rot, excessive red veins appearing and maybe some lethargy and bouts of white poo. Is that it or is there more?

To me, this points directly at parasites. Again, ESPECIALLY in good clean, steady water params.

For instance, I just got through destroying chilodonella AND tetrahymena (and epistylus) in one of my goldie tanks. The infected fish did not EVER show any white spots, excess slime nor any tailrot. He was able to stave the parasites off from invading full force because he is in tip-top health. But, he would pace and mouth chatter (coughing) in the corners and flash every now and again. I tried PC and salt for a week and a half and both chilo and tetra just kinda faded away a little. But they never completely died off. So, I went with quick cure and salt dips before each new dose of meds. Two full treatments destroyed them all. However, I treated in a completely sanitized ten gallon tank, uncylced, that was disinfected each day, before each new addition of meds. I am now cycling a new tank for him, with bio-spira, so that I do not re-infect his tank with bio-matter from ANY other tanks.


I agree, a 1 inch fish probably should not be subjected to QC. But, As a bit of re-assuring, I have yet to lose a fish to QC. I have treated albino cories, dojo loaches, mollies, goldfish from 3 inches on up to ten inches and even guppies with QC and not a single fish died as a result. However, that is only my experience with it. Others may have had bad reactions happen in their fish. The best way to go about using QC is to start at half dose. If they all do well for a few hours, try bringing it up to a full dose. Watch carefully for the first 15-30 minutes to be sure.


I hope you can get this figured out. It would REALLY help if you were able to procur a microscope for examining slime, poo and filter "goo". Even a cheapo scope can produce a high and clear enough magnification for IDing every parasite we commonly see on goldfish (except for sporozoan infections or hexamita/spironucleus).


Good luck and keep us posted!


Paul

I agree that the next logical step is PC and 0.3% salt. Let's give that a go and see if it stop the symptoms. Laura, please increase salt by 0.1% per day and keep it at 0.3% for at least 2 weeks. You do have PC on hand?

As for the finrot looking worse after the swab, that is to be expected as the rot would have extended a little way down the fin so that there are tissues there which are diseased or dead. The whole idea of the swab is to remove those tissues and allow health tissues a chance to grow back naturally.

Hey Henry,

I posted at the same time you did.....

I went out this morning for the PC and the store did NOT have it .

I am going to try to go out right now to purchase
(1) microscope
(2) PC from a different store

Does anyone suggest, as Kathy did, that I perform this second swab to get rid of any remaining neosporin??

No, you normally only do this type of swab once as reapplication will harm the new cells. I think Kathy is more saying that she would have used iodine instead of peroxide rather than suggesting that you do both.

I just purchased a scope that magnifies 300x. Is that good enough? I'd like to know b/4 I open it. Thanks!

It should be okay for most things but some (e.g. costia) needs 400x.

Is costia more common than others??

I guess I am inclined to think this is an immediate need, the microscope. The longer we sit on this, the worse it will get. And I am assuming you guys don't want me to start the PC until I have a scope??

So the final question is: should I go out and look for a stronger scope?

Costia is more of a pond problem. Costia is one of the smallest parasites. It belongs to the protozoal group of parasites. Chilodonella is another member but about 2-4 times the size.

How much did you pay for the scope?

You can start PC without using the scope. It is just a good idea to be able to positively ID the beastie but then again, there is no guarantee that you will find something or you can id whatever you see.

It was a 40USD "Criminal Investigation" kit found in the kids section. It was the last and only microscope they had. Comes with a little briefcase, slides, gloves, all sorts of serums...quite an extensive set-up!

I would like to note that at this writing, Johnny's fin looks so much better. Yes it does...that makes me feel good. I did not notice, however, any odd behavior tonight.

This is my plan of action:

Starting Wednesday Nov 9:
- Start to raise the salt to .3%; @ a rate of .1%/day (currently at .1%)
- Perform a quick water change/cleaning of gravel
- Start dosing with Parasite Clear
- Try out the new 'criminal investigation' kit...if it doesn't work, we always have something for the kids to play with. I will get a sample of the poop and the filter goop and take a look-see.
- Post an update as soon as possible for your review.

(I hope this plan works...as of now me and the kids have strep throat and are not feeling too happy...)

Again, if anyone has anything I can reference in terms of comparing what I am seeing w/the scope, that would be great.

Thanks again, Henry and Paul, for your insight. You guys are great - and my fishy thank-you, too!

Being able to tell what your seeing is the whole jist.


I have several great links for identifying parasites:


Chilodonella:

http://microscope.mbl.edu/scripts/microsco...il&imageID=1036

http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Movies/htmls/...a/Chilodonella/

http://microscope-microscope.org/applicati...hilodonella.htm

Tetrahymena

http://www.aquar.cz/Tetrahymenozy.html

http://www.fishdisease.net/fd/disease_imag....php?img_id=388

http://www.pirx.com/droplet/gallery/tetrahymena.html



Here's my putfile page. Check out the creatures I got shots of under my cheapo scope. The only ones on the page that you should really be concerned with is chilo and tetra. For a good comparison for size, try putting some filtergoop under the scope. If you find any of the rotifers I have on my page, chilo and tetra will be smaller than them. http://www.putfile.com/toothless/images I can help you further on size comparison so you can get an idea of the sizes your looking for. Also, check out the videos on my media page for tetra.


Flukes are pretty easy to identify and are the largest of all the parasites:

http://www.fisheries.org/education/fisheri...yrodactylus.JPG

and trichodina is also very easy to tell, but is just about the same size as chilo and tetra:

http://www.fisheries.org/education/fisheri...0trichodina.jpg


I suggest starting out checking the filter goo for chilo, tetra and trich. You can put a small bit of brown goo on the slide with a drop or two of water and be ready to examine it. If anything, we can give you an idea of the sizes of the organisms you are seeing. this makes for an invaluable tool in comparing them to the sizes of any suspect bugs in question. I also suggest getting some proffesional slides, they are MUCH clearer than the plastic crapola that comes with cheapo scopes.

I have more, much more......

No, Paul, no more, I'm getting nightmares of little beasties and brown poop spreaded thin between two pieces of glass. Arrrgh!!

OMG you guys are NOT going to believe this!! (ok maybe you will)

I grabbed some brown gook from the filter, scoped it w/my little putt putt Walmart micrscope at 300x and CLEARLY found:

da ta da da!!! ARE YOU READY??

TRICHODINA

Oh yeah - totally. I haven't used a microscope in 20+ years! HA! My MBA did not prepare me for something like this!

Then I pulled another sample from the filter and found it in that one, too.

I am also seeing something 'wormlike' moving in the first slide next to the trich. Dumb question, but is that right? (i'm sure it is...)

Now, is it possible to have other parasites hanging out in there w/the trich? Just curious if I should be scoping out some more stuff.

I'll do a bit of research on this little bugger...what do you guys think I should do? I have yet to add the PC as I was busy trying to get this microscope to work....

Alright.....now my excitement has tapered off a bit.....

After looking around at the online pics and doing some reading I am wondering if what I see may be an amoeba?

Being my scope is maxed out at 300x, I cannot really see the cilia on the what I think is the trich......

I need to do some more investigating of the slides. If you have any thoughts b/4 I get back, please let post.

(just a note...the kids and I are suffering from strep at the moment...so if I don't get back right away, pls understand.)

After twisting my neck into 10 million different positions...I have found something funky in the slide besides what I originally thought was the trich.

It is more on the scale of the chilo or the tetra. Now, what I have observed was something that looked like the chilo, then it moves around in a caterpillar like fashion. It stretches itself out, not completely, but enough, then squashes itself back together. As I was looking at it, my son called for me, I looked up..when I got back to the scope I had found the 'thing' moved to the other side of the viewing hole.

I do not see MANY of these...maybe 2 at the most I could find.

1. Can I have more than one parasite? (i don't see why not!)
2. Should I do a scope of poop?

I need a crash course on viewing parasites....I wonder if I need more water on the slide? I see a bunch of gook....man I wish I had a stronger scope!

Live trichodina resemble little flying saucers in the way they move. Here's a pic that illustrates their movement pretty well: http://training.fws.gov/BART/images/parasi...richodina-1.jpg
Trichodina, once dead, actually become a mass of tissue that is not easily recognisable. So, if it does not move, yet retains a very symetrical shape, and is a yellowish color, it is most likely a "shelled" amoeba. Shelled amoeba are VERY, VERY common. They are completely harmless. Look 1/2 the way down this page: http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/indexm...03/jmcpark.html

This is a rotifer. http://forum.mikroscopia.com/index.php?showtopic=868 Philodina species to be more precise. They are pretty easily mistaken for flukes as some are relatively close to the size of a fluke. They move in an inchworm-like fashion, more often than not. When they are moving like and inchworm, their mouth "corona" as retracted. When they anchor themselve to a piece of muck or substrate, they will spread their corona open and begin fanning food particles into their mouths with tiny cilia that ring tthe corona. They can tell if its food, very quickly and spit it out if its not. Then, it can often become trapped in the vortex of the water circling around the corona. this makes it seem as though they are juggling their food. If you look closely enough, you can often see a little snorkel-like protrusion near the end where their mouth is. They always taper to a fine point at their "foot" end with either two, or four little spikes that are their actual feet. Rotifers are VERY, VERY common and soooper hard to kill (if one were to try). Completely harmless.

This is gill flukes: http://www.fisheries.org/education/fisheri...actylogyrus.jpg

A side view of their large hooks in the clamp: http://www.cib.uaem.mx/agebiol/bol_abril20...os/image050.jpg

This is skin flukes: http://www.fisheries.org/education/fisheri...yrodactylus.JPG

The flukes above are all actually pretty similar in size and shape. They CAN move in an inchworm fashion but tend to be a bit more eratic in movement... retracting and protracting their bodies kindof jerkily. Remember the rule that if the tail tapers to a point, its a rotifer. If its rounded, it could very well be flukes. Do not suspect flukes until you actually see their clamp with hooks or you find them attached to fish slime and or gill tissues.


This is trichodina as a size comparison to flukes, this may not be completely accurate but is close enough: http://www.gartenteichfische.de/Beratung/K...eiten/para4.gif


Trichodina, tetra and chilo are all about the same size.


Chilo does not resemble flukes in any way that I have ever seen. Chilo moves like those battery powered toy cars that turn around after bumping into a wall. They always turn in the SAME direction. They can move pretty rapidly and straight, for a lopsided ciliate. However, you will always be able to tell them apart from the other harmless critters like them as they will always exhibit their "mouse in a maze" pattern of swimming like the toy car I described above. Its as though, for a second, one foot is nailed to the floor as they turn around, sometimes they spin circles, seemingly uncontrollably, until they die. Chilo dies from the heat and pressure of being under the coverslip, within ten to twenty minutes. If you see something moving on the slide after 20 minutes, it is most likly NOT chilo.


Keep plugging away at it and tell us what you think!


Paul

Thanks, Paul, for all the usefull information.

I have learned that I prob need a better microscope. I will try again with the one I have, but if I can't come to a conclusion I will look for another. I just can't tell if what I am seeing is trich or an amoeba. I've prepared 3 slides and find evidence of trich (or amoeba) in each of them. However, I have NOT seen any movement from them. They are very circular, I see a definite "circle within a circle" pattern, but I cannot see any cilia. I see a lot of movement from many other worm-like creatures...and that pear-shaped thingy I described earlier, but that's it.

I did see some yawning today, again (Wed Nov 9). I have still not increased my salt....I'm kinda holding off on that until I can determine what I've got here.

All three of my samples came from the filter. Do you suggest I sample from somewhere else?

Well, the fish are probably too small to be scraped with any kind of effectiveness. And gill samples are probably out of the question. That is, unless you have the precision of a surgeon. Then again, if you see any slime floating freely, try to snatch it out and examine it. Heck, examine stuff from the gravel bed too.


I very highly suggest that you look at a local medical supply company for attaining proffesional slides. Even very cheap, NON acromatic lenses in a cheapo scope are very useful if your specemins are on/in fine glass instead of plastic. This makes for a MUCH, MUCH better image for viewing. Its literally the difference between a fogy day and a clear one.

If you have seen several or more of these round things and still not seen a single one of them moving, I doubt they are trichodina. If they seem yellowish/golden in hue, they are indeed shelled amoeba. They DO look alarmingly like trichodina but are much larger and yellow/gold/brown. When I first found shelled amoeba in my tanks, I researched for days til I was satisfied with the fact that they weren't trich.....

Another thing about flukes is that if there is nothing for it to grab onto, it will spasm and contract over and over again until it finds something to grasp with its hooks. Adult flukes cannot swim in the least bit. A rotifer, if in open water with no food particles nearby, will just unfold/protract its corona and zip away like a torpedo with the impeller on its front end. Rotifers can also anchor their foot to glass and walk away using the surface of the glass. They have a glue they secrete from their foot that attaches to anything.


Sorry, Henry. I'll probably be posting some more links to some beasts that may be lurking...... But hey, this is some pretty interesting stuff. I tell you, keeping goldfish healthy and happy has broadened my horizons much more so than I would have ever imagined. If you asked me about microscopes a few years ago, I would have ho-hummed and probably yawned. Now, I want to get near the level that the folks in the forum, in the link below, are at. Here's a view of a rare occurance to actually catch, chilodonella conjugating: http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/view...0124e9ca3880f8f


Paul

Hi Laura,

Paul has given you lots of good info and links (as always!).

As Paul mentioned before, most parasites are id'ed via their characteristic movement patterns. A dead parasite is just tank/pond scum.

So towards that goal, here is my contribution. Horror movies!
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/video/fishmovies.htm

HI Chico,
Yes, it is possible to have more then one parasite in regards! I will at this point also add another description to the Trich, ever see a tree thats been cut? The ring pattern? Doc J pointed that out in the wet lab.

Oh yes, Ich can and does move..... Take a stretch, go for a walk...

Chico, you can also sort through the articles under the main page at KV, and I have a sticky up in the sick fish & ponds also with some excellent top notch pics of parasites that a member took along with some other links to stuff as well.


So pear shaped? Does it resemble a ear maybe? How does it act? move off someplace and stop & spin like its foot is nailed to the floor and do it again?
***************************************************
Stop hogging that chair henry! You gotta share!

Another sample taken from the filter this morning, Nov 10.

I found something that looked like a fluke. Now, pls remember I'm using a scope at 300x and a plastic slide. (kids are sick and can't get out yet to store...)

Here is my description:

It is at the end of all the gook (along the outside ring); it is not in the middle of the gook. It is stuck to the gook at his ROUND end. It is NOT tapered off at the point where he is clinging to the gook. He has the appearance of a pear at times, kinda squashed. He then stretches out, and I see what looks like a mouth opening (kinda like a "v" shape)and then cilia moving. With his bottom round end still stuck to the gook, he moves around - stretching here and there.

Kinda like a slinky...pretend a slinky is stuck on the table. Pull it up and off to the side while keeping the base on the table. That's what it looks like.

It has been moving for a good 45 minutes; moving meaning it's round end is still in the same spot, but it stretches and contracts. When it stretches, it looks as if it thinks about what it's going to do, then it sticks out whatever he is sticking out and I see the cilia moving.....

Thoughts?

just an fyi....I called around the med supply stores and NO ONE can provide me with glass slides. They also had no idea where to get them! You would thinking living around Chicago I wouldn't have such a problem....argh. My only solution at the moment would be to go to ebay or an online store....

Here is my question, please:

Would my treatment still be the same whether the culprit was chilo, trich, or flukes??

Because...being I am encountering some diffulties aquiring quality slides / scopes in an immediate fashion, should I just treat w/the PC? If I start treatment with the PC today (thurs), but receive quality slides early next week, would that be futile?

I have seen some yawning going on today.....this is the reason I am posing these questions.

How much longer can I hold off on treatment just to figure out what I got? In the end, would it be better for the fish to treat immediately or wait for the quality investigative products?? I am following the fantailfan1 post...and if I'm correct I don't think her situation was diagnosed w/scope?

I am not sure what to do.......

Hey chico--

Here's my . I don't have a scope. I considered getting one but then I thought: 1. So once I have it am I going to know what to do with it and/or what I'm seeing? (Microbiology lab was over 10 years ago!) 2. How much will an ID of exactly which type of parasite help the situation? From what I'd read here and in my books, it sounded like the recommended treatment for jsut about every parasite was salting the tank. And, if you wanted to get more agressive or the salt didn't work, add Parasite Clear to the mix.

So that's why I did it without a scope. I don't know what I would do if I had to do it all over again. Maybe things would have gone quicker/turned out better if I used a scope. I applaud you for giving it a try--perhaps you will inspire me to try it if, heaven forbid, there is a next time!!

I will watch what happens here with great interest!! It's definitely a great learning experience for both of us!!

GOOD LUCK!! I can't wait for both our tanks to be parasite free!!

I can tell you with a LARGE degree of certainty that what you saw was indeed a philodina species of rotifer. Flukes, being trematodes, are not related to ciliated protozoans and have no cilia to beat rapidly. At first glance, one would think that the hooked end of a fluke is the mouth, In truth, the hooks and clamps are their feet. Its the other end that they graze the slime and epitheliel tissues with. This is apparent with gyrodactylus as their eyespots (dactylogyrus is eyeless) are located at that end of the body. So, if what you saw was anchored with the end that did not open to beat cilia, it was most definitely a rotifer.

The two best treatments for all ciliated protozoans (Ich is easily killed with salt) is Potassium Permanganate OR Malachite Green/Formalin (Quick Cure or Profome C). If at all possible, MG/F should be tried first as PP is reported to be a bit harsher. My reasoning is that there are salt resistant (0.3%) strains of every ciliated parasite we know of. Costia is a flagellate and is commonly restant to salt as well. However, I believe that ALL parasites are greatly affected by salt dips. Their little bodies cannot handle the sudden change in salinity from nil directly to 1.5% or higher.


Depending on the exact species of parasite/s that are involved, your fish could, very concievably, live their entire lives harboring them. Goldfish, although having much of their immuno-defences bred out of them, are still very adept at fending off parasites through the protection of their slime coats. Providing that the water quality is kept top-knotch, you probably have plenty of time to practice with the scope. Eventually, you should be able to isolate the parasite/s, that is, if its not costia. Costia is best detected in slime scrapes. Truthfully, all parasites are best detected in scrapes but filtergoo exams are a LOT less stressful to the fish.


As for aquiring slides, I would call a few vets offices and clinics to see where they get theirs. Ceck the yellow pages for medical supply companies, locally. Sometimes, they deliver to the clinics and hospitals but also have a store or a store they deliver to, where you can purchase stuff at. If not, they could tell you where to go to get them. Keep plugging away at it.


Paul

I will continue searching for the parasite.....

However, I purchased Parasite Clear the other day based on above posts....should that be exchanged for the Quick Cure?? I thought Quick Cure was to be used AFTER the PC??

Sorry, I was under the impression that you already tried PC in the past. It might be a good idea to go ahead and try that route before you go with Quick Cure or Proform C.

Good luck with the scoping!


PAul

Chico you can get slides and cover slips from Pond RX, thats where I got mine, I bought both types, the plastic cover slips are safer, glass for photo's.

Also for the record, flukes need to be treated with prazi , anchor worm & argulus is dimlin . You can get both from Dr Foster & Smith pretty reasonable. Prazi is the spendy one of the two though. I actually get most of my meds between the two places I mentioned. But I also buy in bulk in regards. I generally go to the pond section at F&S, the containers come in bigger sizes there as a rule. Cheaper then the lfs anyway,lol!

Oh dear, I guess I should add that the proform C is purchased through pond RX also....... I'm really dragging today and the mind is gone! I think it went south for the winter along with a few other broken down things around here,lol!

Ok - I purchased some glass slides and glass slips off ebay. They prob won't come until next week. And I haven't decided if I'm gonna break down and purchase a better scope....I was gonna use this $ for a bigger tank! I think I'll try the glass slides w/my cheapo scope first....oh what to do, what to do!!!



(my husband is gonna kill me......)

I know, I get "that look" from the DH myself, "You need what? How much is that gonna cost?" ......

I just remind him the 55 gl is his tank that I take care of.......

If you can get by for a bit with the cheapy scope, do so by all means. I did buy my scope from eBay (precision world) and got a way much nicer version by waiting a bit IMHO..... Although either a bigger tank or nice scope would make a nice Chrissy gift don't you think?

Secondly, KV main page, they do list a lot of the wet labs well in advance.... start saving and attend one! Its worth it!

Kathy - the scope I'm looking at on ebay is from Precision World! Paul has been nice enough to review them for me...and I think this is the one I'm gonna get:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Is this something similar to yours?

Just a quick sum:

Last week treated ongoing tail rot with a hydrogen peroxide swab followed with neosporin. Fin reacted with blood streaks for about two days. Blood streaks are now 100% gone. Today (one week later) I have noticed the ends of the fins where the treatment took place are a bit of a charcoal color. So ever slight...but it's there.

I am going to assume this is part of the healing process?

Precisely. Thats a good sign. Keep on the lookout for smooth edges to start growing out from the ragged bits......

Yes, that is a good sign.

Thank-you, gentlemen! It's amazing how much I have learned....

A little update: they are both swimming around fine and acting totally normal, except of course for the few episodes of yawning I see every now and then.

Those slides should be here very soon....I'll post as soon as I see something moving!

I'd like to write a brief summary before I get into the good stuff....

Tank is now 5 months old w/two 1.5inch bodied orandas: Johnny and Robby. Since the beginning, Johnny has been displaying fin erosion in his tail. Tried Melafix for 1.5 weeks; no improvement. Salted at approx .3% for almost 2 weeks; no improvement. One of the fishy had white stringy poop, so I then treated with Maracyn. The fin was still looking ragged, so I performed a very weak betadine swab; no better.

Fishies then started to yawn. I saw Johnny rubbing on the gravel and doing some spin-outs in the corners. Something is up, I said. I couldn't handle the fin anymore so I did another swab, this time with hydrogen peroxide followed with a swipe of neosporin ointment. Fin immediately flared up, and much to my horror I thought I ruined his fin for life. However, it quickly rebounded and I am now seeing little improvement!

In the meantime I received advice from LauireP, coyote ugly, captk and toothless. The tank is salted at .1%. After much discussion, I purchased a microscope on ebay. I figured to correctly diagnose this sucker, I needed to know exactly what it was. After 30 minutes and two samples later, I found out what I had:

chilodonella

Here is a link to my putfile page for your enjoyment. I have three decent pictures and a short video:

http://www.putfile.com/chico69

I hope to have a better video up shortly. I have to say that without the help of toothless, I would be totally lost. He worked many a late hour with me to diagnose this. I at first thought it was tetra...however Paul's extensive knowledge corrected me yet again. To the novice, everything looks the same.....

So for now the treatment will be salting at .3%. I am hoping for a new 55gallon by the end of the year. The plan is to set up the new tank and perform a fishless cycle w/the help of bio-spira. Check the existing tank again for chilo. If the .3% does not work, treat with .5 dose of Quick Cure since the fish are kinda small. I really don't want the chilo to hitch a ride on the fish into the new tank. Check again for chilo. If all is clear in the existing tank, transfer the fishy to their new environment and sterilize the old tank.

I would like to end this by thanking every single one of you for your support and advice. Without the help of wonderful individuals as yourselves, many folks (like me) would be in the dark about how to successfully treat our little friends. You guys are truly wonderful and a huge asset to the fishkeeping world. This site is fantastic, and without a doubt the best place I spend my online time with.

Laura I am glad that Toothy brought you right thru. Goodness you have come a long way girl. Doesn't it feel good to have a grasp on this stuff now?
I am proud to have helped you, but I must say you got some experience I don't have yet. Good for you.

I feel so empowered by this entire experience! I am truly greatful for all the help, for without your initial guidance, Laurie, I'd be twiddlin' my thumbs! You should be proud of yourself for all the advice you are so wonderfully sharing!

I do have a little question....

The tank is salted at only .2%. I have been raising the salt level very slowly. I am leaving for 3 1/2 days; hubby and children will be in charge of the fish.

Should I just leave the tank salted at .2% until I get back, or will it be okay to up it to .3%? I'm just wondering if the fish could react negatively w/the increased level while I'm away.....

Yep, it surely IS chilo that your seeing. I just want to point a few things out to anyone that may be learining from this thread and pics/vids:


The Chilo that is in Chico's video and pics is the classic chilo we most commonly see on our fish. It has a notched rear end and no pronounced "flap" that extends out in front of the front end. It has a large macronucleus that is visible and very few contractile vacuoles "round balls" in the body. Tetra has MANY. Tetra is also not flat like chilo.

Other species of chilo would exhibit the flap up front and NO notched rear end. However, it will still move in a circular pattern at least from time to time. All chilo species exhibit a large macronucleus and very few contractile vacuoles.

If you watch the video above, you will see that there is at least one of them moving in circles. It's out of focus so you can barely make out the outline of the organism as it spins. Keep your line of sight towards the middle and watch the vid a couple times and it will become all to clear what I am describing. This circular pattern of swimming is relatively secluded to the chilononella species.

Chilo has a seriously hard time swimming in open water. Instead of any sort of organization to its movements in open water, it will tumble, seemingly uncontrollably, end over end and side over side until has grabbed ahold of something solid to "walk" on and graze for nutrients.



I'll be adding the pics and vids from above to the disease treatment section under chilodonella. Hopefully by this weekend.




Paul

10 gallon tank; running 5 months
2 1.5inch body orandas
aquaclear 30 (150gph)
prime
ammo - 0
nitrIte - 0
nitrAte - 10
KH - 120
GH - 150
Johnny has had fin erosion since August. I noticed today Robby's tail (who hasn't had any physical issues) is displaying signs of stress: a few more red streaks than usual.

salting @ .3% since Dec 1

Tank pH
pH on Dec 1: 8.0
pH on Dec 6: 8.2

pH out of tap: 8.0


December 1 started salting @ .3% to try to kill off the chilo. I have been out of town from Dec 3 until Dec 6. Tank water params are in good condition, however I noticed the pH has increased a bit. I am using drop tests, and there is definitely a different color b/n the tap and the tank today.

In addition, I left the live plants in the tank while I was gone for the 3 days. I noticed they are slowly going bye-bye from the high salt. They are not totally gone, but I can see a difference. Will replace w/fake asap.

Question 1: Can adding salt up to .3% change the pH in the tank?

Question 2: Why, now, is Robby's tail starting to display red streaks? Any link to high salt, or the change in the pH?

Question 3: Is that pH too high? I'm wondering what level should sound the alarms?

Question 4: Do the dying plants have any role in the increased pH?

Thanks, everyone!

If i'm not mistaken, dead plant material CAN increase the total hardness in the water by realeasing its payloads of micronutrients and other substances. I believe salt increases hardness by a small percentage as well. How much for each, I don't really know. Since I gave up on live plants, I ceased learning anything in that realm.

A ph change of 8 to 8.2 is not a significant one over the course of a few days. However, if it could have possibly happened within a few minutes, thats a different story. Keep a close tab on the pH for a few more days and see if its still rising. Also, you may want to draw some tapwater and let it sit for up to a week. Test it everyday and see if it changes at all.


0.3% salt, although safe, does indeed put a fish's osmoregulation into high gear. This CAN lead to stress. But, it shouldn't cause more stress than the beneficiality is worth.

Can you get a good clear shot of each fish and the visible symptoms?


Hang in there......


Paul

I can take pics of the fish, but I don't think that it will be good enough to show you what I am seeing...you know how it is. Us fish mom and dad's can see it, but it's hard to show others.

So far the pH has remained at 8.2. I'll set out some water tonight to see if the pH changes over time. I have never had a prob w/the pH since I've set up the tank (5 months ago), so I'm gonna attribute it to the .3% salt for the moment.

The live plants are coming out and silk plants are going in. The fish like to sleep under them so I felt I needed to keep some sort of plant in there until I upgrade.

The fish's condition hasn't changed. Everyone is happy and frolicking around like crazy. I'm happy for that.

Next week I will scope again to see if the salt has made a dent in the chilo population.

wow.. just read your whole thread through. it has DEFINITELY peaked my interest as to what's in my water with my fish. haha.

being a biology major still in school, i have definitely had some experience with microscopes and stuff, but never to look at pond water...

i kinda wanna go out and buy a scope now and check out my fishy water!!!

i will most certainly be keeping an eye on this thread!!!

g'luck with your fishies!

Frolicking is definitely good!

I hope to hear some good news soon!


Yes, scoping pondlife is a very fascinating hobby. I like to find new things to identify and watch. Rotifers are especially neat to study. There is a page about rotifers online that talks about how it single handedly accounts for a huge amount of the breakdown of decaying matter suspended in puddles creeks and every waterway on the planet. Without these microscopic creatures, the earth would not exist as we know it. Of course, you can say that about almost every vital link animal in any ecosystem. But rotifers are worldwide..........


Paul

haha you sound like a giddy school boy all excited about his science project!!!

i agree with you though... a lot of the little thing that we don't see in every day life are the fascinating ones. i am constantly amazed at how complicated the human body is and how it works with such precision. then again... i'm a nerd... and nerdy things fascinate me!!

Day 9 of salting @ .3%. Fish behavior is normal. Saw one yawn from Robby today. Robby also has a little scrape on his left side..possibly from one of the ornaments that has a hole in it. I have seen Robby get himself in the ornament looking for food, and successfully get himself out. However, after seeing the scrape (which isn't that bad), I'm tossing the ornament. I'll keep an eye on it.

Today's post is two-fold:

1. I was able to take a pic today of Robby's tail fin....I have three arrows pointing to the offending marks. The arrow all the way to the right is most certainly pointing to red veining. However, the other two arrows are pointing to red "spots". (sorry for the quality - I hope you can see a bit what I'm talking about) I am not 100% certain these are veins. It has crossed my mind that quite possibly Robby's tail is changing color a bit??? Any thoughts on that?? I'm not overly worried.....

Here's the pic:




2. It is time to clean the tank. I have noticed that the green algae on my tank walls has developed brown algae spots in it. It doesn't look quite so nice anymore. So I'd like to wipe down the walls really good when I clean the tank. I always leave the fish in while I clean. Questions are:

a. Should I take the fish out of the tank while I'm doing this thorough wall cleaning? There is a lot of algae and I'm wondering if all the floating debris will be bad for the fish if they are in the tank.
b. Remember that I now have a pH difference b/n tank (8.2) and tap (8.0). If I should take the fish out of the tank during the cleaning, would it be better to put them in a bucket (2 gallon) full of tank water and gravel debris (collected from the gravel vac) versus putting them in a bucket of dechlor tap water? I don't know how the change in pH would effect them.